Why buy Seraph's Embrace?

Von Brohenheim·9/6/2018, 8:58:08 PM·10 votes·28,447 views

Patch 8.4 tried to create diversity among starting AP items by introducing an early game power spike item (Luden's Echo), a scaling mid-late item (Archangel's/Seraph's), and a catcher/pick item (GLP) to fill the mana/ap/20% CDR first item.

Unfortunately, this backfired, as Archangel's crowded out the other options, even on champions who struggle to stack it quickly. Several nerfs ensued, eventually resulting in Archangel's only converting 1% max mana to AP, and Seraph's giving 3%.

8.9 saw the dubious, ham-fisted decision to cut most mages' mana per level in half indiscriminately. While things have stabilized somewhat, the problem is that a lot of the champions that would WANT to buy Tear in 8.8 lose so much AP because of their halved mana growth.

Specifically, Cassiopeia, Karthus, and Syndra used to have some of the highest mana pools in the game, to reflect that their kits rely on them repeatedly landing low cooldown skillshots or spamming E while kiting poisoned targets. Consequently, their mana/level was in the low 60s. Anivia and Veigar weren't far behind, at 50.

The problem is losing 15-17 AP, or 13 in Anivia and Veigar's cases. Luden's is giving 90 AP right away, but Seraph's gives .9 AP per level at 30 mana per level, down from 1.8. Until then, Archangel's gives a mere .3 AP per level. The numbers go up marginally for Karthus (30.5 per level) and Cassiopeia (31.5 per level), and Anivia and Veigar get .75 AP per level from Seraph's, and .25 from Archangel's.

Considering games infrequently go to level 18 and level 11 is pretty standard for mid game, we should compare a fully stacked Seraph's at 11 to Luden's.

Anivia 114 Cassiopeia 114 Karthus 115 Syndra 115 Veigar 114 All (Luden's) 90

So IF you can stack your Seraph's Embrace completely by level 11, you're looking at an extra 25 AP over Luden's Echo. The problem is, with 1% from Archangel's, if you're at 350/750 bonus stacks, you're at a 25 AP deficit from Luden's.

The worst part is, unless you're buying a catalyst item as well, this is the only use you get from Archangel's/Seraph's passive.

The end result is that in its current state, the risks of a mid game half-stacked Archangel's are just as severe as the benefits of a fully-stacked Seraph's. Buying an 850g tear four minutes in is a high variance move with diminished payoff due to the 8.9 mana nerfs and the Archangel's nerf a few patches before.

So, I have to wonder, who is this item for?

Is it for characters who are looking to delay power? If so, the flat AP ought to be buffed by 10 to reflect 8.9's mana changes.

Is it for characters like the ones I mentioned who can stack it efficiently? If so, it ought to have its % mana scaling homogenized between Archangel's and Seraph's, and to avoid abuse like in 8.4/8.5, maybe increase the scaling to 5% but lower the flat AP to 40.

Is it for all of the above, but everyone has to suffer because a certain single champion will abuse this item if it's worth buying? Make Ryze's passive not stack with Awe It's still 1400 mana, 50 AP, and 20 CDR. Even at 5% instead of 8% he'll survive.

36 Comments

Morgana Ultima9/8/2018, 6:15:53 AM8 votes

A few thoughts:

1.) Manaband rune should also be used in the calculation of Seraph's.

2.) You're saying it's about a 25 ap gain over ludens. That's about an amplifying tome. So if you build luden's first and it nets you a kill you've pretty much made up the Ap deficit just by being able to buy more items.

Let's take karthus for example. On my first back I get a dark seal, blasting wand, and a ward. (This wand is for ROA, not Ludens). Alternatively I could get a dark seal and a tear. If that 40 AP on the blasting wand ends up getting me even one kill with my ult it's simply already better than the tear would be, even long term.

Typically, my first ult as Karthus nets me something a kill and an assist on average. (I'm watching bot lane primarily.) So that's around 500 some gold.

I'm sure other characters are similar with their kill pressure.

You know the problem with the mana regen nerfs is it was done because mana band is so good. Maybe we should just get rid of mana band? It's an idiotic rune that basically just serves to make mages playable. As a Morgana main I'd much rather take Nimbus Cloak than I would manaband, but I'd be out of mana the entire game if I did. Why can't we just make mages playable without manaband?

Linna Excel9/8/2018, 7:44:08 PM4 votes

Don't forget that item 3070 refunds 10% of your mana costs while item 3003 refunds 25%. Archangel's/seraph's is much better for both damage and mana. I think the biggest problem with these items is they take forever to fully stack.

I do like getting a item 3070 on Sona. It really does help her early game.

Psyrix9/8/2018, 4:12:24 PM3 votes

I regularly take comet, havent really played league since the changes to electrocute... Seraphs does scale better than ludens no matter what, the difference in the overall "feel" of the item isn't too noticeable, until it starts outscaling it (if you get tear earlyish). It synergizes extremely well with manaflow band too. However you also forget the active effect on the item, the shield it grants can be lifesaving, and the bonus mana is extremely useful for champs who spam spells.

SanKakU9/13/2018, 6:20:46 PM2 votes

I stopped buying it long before they tried doing any changes to it and afterwards I was not tempted. There have been better item options for ages.

The reason people buy it is that they are adhering to the suggested items lists.

Von Brohenheim9/16/2018, 1:59:30 PM1 votes

I worry this discussion is being sidetracked by usage stats and discussions about the meta, rather than the math behind the item's stats. So, let me rephrase the question I ended with. Instead of asking why, I'll ask why not.

Do you see an issue with giving Archangel's an extra 10 AP?

If you do, do you think that leaving Archangel's at +50 AP but making Seraph's +65 AP would be better?

If neither of these are amenable, what about changing UNIQUE PASSIVE - Awe on Seraph's Embrace (not Archangel's) to 5% maximum mana?

And if you think none of those could be implemented and not be absoluletly game breaking, explain why.

The Bad Touch9/20/2018, 6:33:19 PM1 votes

Anivia

ModKnightsKemplar9/8/2018, 1:53:58 AM1 votes

Approved!

Dicerson9/21/2018, 8:01:02 AM1 votes

Honestly, I think it is for stacking. It's the same as the reason for picking Nasus. In isolation, the item is not the best choice, it's risky, and a poor investment. The strength of Archangel's comes from it's end-game, from the raw AP it gives when combined with other items, and from the utility of the mana shield and the increased resource pool.

If Archangel's was good by itself, compared to Luden's or other Items, then it would be god-tier when combined with other mana-giving items. It's an item that enhances the AP value of every other mana-giving AP item, you purchase it when you intend to stack it as hard as possible. In other words, when your goal is to maximize the amount of AP you'll have in the mid-late game. Whereas Luden's echo and other items are for more immediate power, that still transitions well into the mid-late game but doesn't get quite as powerful. From personal experience, a full end-game building revolving around stacking mana with seraph's tend to get between 900 and a 1000 depending on the specific champion and build path (Absolute highest AP build is Raba's, Seraph's, Roa, Rellonomican, Lich Bane, Spellbinder). Whereas a build that focused more on immediate power, using stuff like Luden's void staff, etc. Tend to only reach between 7 and 8 hundred by the end-game.

One big issue, however, is when games do not reach that point. Many games only last between 20 and 30 minutes, few champions sport the cooldowns and natural resources necessary to stack an Archangel's fully by 20 or 30 minutes, meaning that for other champions the risk of buying an Archangels is far too great, and an item like Luden's is going to give them about as much or more raw Ap then they'd end up with by the game's end anyways, on top of it's movement speed and powerful passive. It's just a better buy for the majority of situations and the majority of champions. (Personally, I end up going archangel's alot because I live for the end-game, and usually play accordingly XD)

KlydeFrog9/8/2018, 6:19:09 AM1 votes

I take it on taric as my only ap item and i just stack cdr and mana

Li Fu Chen9/8/2018, 8:48:01 AM1 votes

It's good on support Ryze bc you get a shield based off of mana and gain a second passive which is basically the same as the first

Carnicore9/8/2018, 10:13:55 PM1 votes

It's simply an item designed for lategame scaling. You can get tons of AP and mana from this item, but first you have to buy an item with no direct combat stats (Tear) so you're weaker early game. I don't really have any problems with this item, it's popular on a lot of different mages like those you mentioned and it doesn't feel over/underpowered.

Core item on Cassiopeia with good winrates

Popular 2nd item on Kassadin

Rarely bought on Xerath, but the statistics look good

Core on Ryze

Usable on Malzahar

Common on Karthus

Kind of bad on Orianna

Zilean of course loves this thing

Never used on Brand

This looks like a healthy item to me. Not overly dominant, but it has its place.