Let's talk about the jungle

RiotYpherion·2/28/2015, 1:22:51 AM·55 votes·69,759 views

Hi all,

Let’s talk about the 2015 season jungle. Up front: we knew the preseason changes were going to make things significantly tougher, but it’s clear we’ve misstepped along the way in both communication and design. Not only have we not done a great job of sharing our thoughts (present and future), but our subsequent changes to the jungle from patch 5.1 to 5.4 have been nerfs to jungle diversity rather than continuing to deliver on our preseason goals.

First, let’s see how we got here. From the beginning we knew that “strategic diversity” would basically become a meme for the 2015 season, but it’s still something we strongly believe in. A lot of players might associate champion diversity with strategic diversity, but it’s more about one feeding into the other. The former is only about what champions get played - even if they’re doing the same thing - while the latter emphasizes champions who can enable a variety of other strategies on a team (objective control, wombo, lane pressure, etc). With Jarvan IV, Vi, and Lee Sin all fulfilling identical roles (with priority given to whoever’s strongest), we know we’re not there.

In line with the above thought, our goal with 2015 was to support a rock-paper-scissors game of jungle styles: ganking, farming, and counter jungling. What we ended up discovering, however, was that counter jungling wasn’t actually a proper response on par with ganking and farming, so jungling went back to who could gank or farm the best (or both).

It’s clear that we’ll need to reconfigure what available playstyles there are for junglers out there, but for now our big focus is getting jungler diversity up before attempting to tackle the larger problem of strategic jungler playstyles (versus champion playstyles like playing Amumu vs. Vi).

So what do we want to do, and how can we get there? High-level we’re still pursuing strategic diversity in the jungle (and, well, all of League of Legends), but we also realize we need to get champion diversity up to support it. Finally, while we intentionally made clearing camps harder and riskier to better differentiate jungler strengths, this has also made the jungle position less satisfying and fun for junglers, so we’re investigating other ways to improve this.

Short-term, here are some tactics:

First, we’re going to be pushing our experimental jungler tank item to the PBE with this patch. We’ve actually been working on it for a little while behind the scenes, but - as we mentioned earlier - haven’t done a great job of communicating that. TL;DR: Juggernaut is being reworked into Cinderhulk, a new Sunfire-esque item build that gives both tankiness and extra clear speeds to the junglers in need.

In terms of auxiliary changes to help get tank junglers get their satisfaction back, we’re going to be looking at a bunch of tank junglers this patch to see if we can give any small buffs in the early game, along with buffs to Gromp’s Poison Armor Smite reward and some early monster damage nerfs. This does mean we’ll need to look at specific dominant champions who are standing (or pouncing) well above the pack, but we’ll have to tread a fine line of balance here. The goal is to get junglers feeling satisfied and empowered to play the position, but we need to be wary of a world where they’re doing so at the cost of everyone else.

Finally, what’s in store for the future? We still believe in creating a compelling set of unique jungle actions beyond just ganking and farming, but haven’t firmly locked down additional paths to support. We have a few ideas we’re really excited about, but we’re definitely looking at making Poacher’s Knife and Skirmisher’s Sabre more robust and exciting items for the future. We’re also going to be examining the feeling of the jungler “potion tax” where junglers always need to be chugging away to stay healthy.

On the communications front, we failed to recognize the stacking pain we’ve been causing junglers through the patches, and that’s something we want to improve. We need to get better at engaging in a healthy dialogue with players while also highlighting our short and long-term goals for the future, and we will.

Wrapping it all up: if it wasn’t clear from our multiple revisions throughout the years, the jungle is a tough position to get right. The jungle needs to test multiple capabilities while also providing the space for a jungler to have impact on the game through different actions, even though right now it’s more focused on high-damage and ganking prowess (which sounds familiar, we know). That said, we’ve never been more confident in our long-term goals - as ambitious as they are - but we know it’s not fair for junglers to languish while we work toward that vision.

We’re definitely committed to opening up the jungle without just giving out power haphazardly, but we’re also hoping that by keeping these communication channels open you’ll help us guide the jungle to a more compelling, diverse, and healthy position in League. We really appreciate your feedback, and we’re excited to continue sharing more of our plans in the future.

297 Comments

Wînter Fox2/28/2015, 1:26:51 AM39 votes

Honestly, I understand and appreciate the long-term goals. They're solid. It's the just the recent nerfs in the short term (raising the price of Machete/the upgrades for example) have really strangled champions that were already having a tough time.

19 19 192/28/2015, 1:26:06 AM21 votes

Would you guys consider to make the jungle less tough? make it more un-stressful to clear at the start of the game?

Edit: or have the jungle items be properly buffed where it passively gives more gold FOR JUNGLERS instead of the laners.

Nameless Voice2/28/2015, 4:49:53 AM12 votes

If you want to increase champion diversity in the jungle, you still need to do something about Lee Sin. LeeSin

He has been the top jungler for too many years, because his overloaded kit basically lets him do everything well, while also making him extremely safe and low-risk because he has so many tools to avoid paying for his mistakes.

You constantly talk about him as being one of the most problematic junglers, yet he is never changed, even while every other jungler is nerfed around him.

ProxyDamage2/28/2015, 1:35:47 AM12 votes

With all due respect, can you explain the atrocity that are the current PBE Nautilus changes?

"Nautilus Titan's Wrath (W) damage while shielded decreased to 15/30/45/60/75 from 40/55/70/85/100 Riptide (E): Cooldown lowered to 6/5.5/5/4.5/4 from 10 at all ranks Mana cost lowered to 40/50/60/70/80 from 60/70/80/90/100 AP ratio lowered to .3 from .5 Slow duration lowered to 1.25 from 2 seconds"

To quote myself on the reddit: ...wat? The entire point of all the jungle changes is to help tank junglers clear so they can be competitive... A big part of this is tanks early clears, which are generally slower and more dangerous than for characters like Lee Sin or Rek'Sai... So... Why, then, in the name of all the fucks do you then nerf Nautilus' early clear by an utterly incomprehensible 62.5%! Titan's Wrath IS Nautilus' entire clear... And the only form of any damage he has early. Yeah, lowering the cooldown on Riptide is cool and all (well, sort of, since you also crippled its slow, which actually hurts more than helps, but whatever) but that's doing fuck all to help with his early clear which you just completely gutted for absolutely no fucking reason... And I know about the Grump changes, and the new jungle enchant changes, and neither of which are going to matter a thing for his first couple of clears where he has essentially no items. For an update where basically every other "currently out of the meta" jungler got a straight up buff, why.... this atrocity... Whatever this is. This is utterly nonsensical. What reasoning was there behind this?

Vallant2/28/2015, 1:27:34 AM11 votes

Machete is a smite only item, make jungler potions that act differently than typical lane potions that only register if you have smite so laners can't abuse them.

Edit:

I mean to say that they have increased regen, or give flat life per hit or something similar to what spirit stone used to do. That way you can bring back off-meta junglers for normal matches so people can have fun with, say, jungle Morg or something. Not the best jungler but something to goof off with while not in ranked. Might even open the door for more jungle diversity in ranked if done correctly.

hakannakah2/28/2015, 1:49:46 AM10 votes

The new intermediate item is great, but from what I see, you still haven't helped tank junglers with their early, early clear. Assuming this item is released the way it is and machete and it's upgrades are still the same price, tank junglers will only be able to get the item as early as their second back.

First clear, you have machete and 2 pots which you'll use and back after the grueling first 3 camps. Now, you only have enough for summoner 11 upgrade, which will have to be trailblazer to help clear (and now you can't even switch it anymore for late game). Finally, let's say you got a gank off with your mediocre damage and have enough gold for the immolate item. At this point, it'll probably be around 10 minutes in and you just now get your tank jungle item. Isn't this too late of a point to get it?

Tank junglers need help the most in their FIRST clears. My point is, this item does come earlier than the original juggernaut, but still not early enough. Someone made a great suggestion of creating multiple item 1039 , just like you did with the support items for poke, melee, and slower supports. Are you guys looking into doing this as well for the first clear? Because that's arguably where every jungle is affected the most, where even JarvanIV and LeeSin have to back.

Are you guys confident that the Gromp buffs and individual buffs will be able to help tank junglers through their initial clears up to the new immolate item? Or are you guys still working on adding more stuff?

P.S.: Also, given that LeeSin has just as much engage, mobility, and even disengage as Vi (honestly even more, with Q and safe guard escape + Ult disengage), do you think that he could also get a move speed nerf down to 345? I don't think his damage is over tuned, just his crazy kit ON TOP of the highest base move speed in the game is a bit much.

Linna Excel2/28/2015, 2:25:17 AM9 votes

While I'm thinking about it, here's a simple question:

Who does riot want jungling and who does riot not want jungling?

Eph2892/28/2015, 1:35:53 AM9 votes

Ypherion, have you seen the post on Reddit about reworking the Runic Blessing mastery in Defense tree to do a % of your max health as damage to jungle monsters?

I did gold-value analysis on these masteries back in S4 and Runic Blessing is by far one of the worst masteries anyway. Nobody takes it. Offensive junglers (Lee Sin, Vi, J4) won't go deep into defense to get this mastery, but it would really help tanks, AND it would make that mastery not suck.

Thoughts?

IncendiarySpade2/28/2015, 3:10:14 AM9 votes

As D2 Jungle main I really like the new jungle. I feel like the problem with the current jungle is actually champion balance, not the jungle itself.

Some of the most fun games I have ever played of League of Legends are this season in the jungle. Their is a lot of strategic depth that allows me to calculate my not-full health, and determine how safe a gank is, or even how safe my next camp is. I like the fact that I don't always come out of the jungle for a gank full hp, and that I can successfully counterjungle if i so choose.

The outliers in it( Lee Sin, Vi, J4, Nidalee and Rek'sai) just have literally everything a jungler could possibly want and crowd out other junglers for the most part. If these champions are each given actual weaknesses, as each farms well, has high hp in the jungle. and has very mobile and good ganks, then I believe diversity would be more popular in the jungle.

I've playedVi a lot and she can easily counterjungle and duel other junglers because of her shield promoting good trading and her W's damage that aids her clear camps easily. I feel like her W needs to be toned down damagewise, as this is her greatest tool in the jungle, she can smash monsters and enemy junglers easily with it.

RekSai seems to have a lot in her kit as well, her sustain is top notch and really doesnt offer any counterplay in the jungle. I can't invade a full health reksai, nor can I duel her in my jungle if she decides to invade. I'd lower her sustain.

Nidalee is an assassin that deals half of your hp with a spear, and the other half with takedown. This is really annoying, but fine if thats what the champion does. What is really frustrating and has never made sense to me in nidalee's kit is her heal. A strong Poke mage, with good dueling potential also having the games largest targeted heal? I can't understand how this is a good design decision.

JarvanIV and LeeSin I feel could see hits in their cooldowns for Q. I've played both champions a decent amount, and countless games against these champions and both seem to have a lot of mobility and damage tied to these skills, which leads them to have good dueling potential, but at the end of the duel these champions have their main damage and mobilty cooldowns off CD already and just Nope out of there with no consequence whatsoever. Lee Sin is a high skill champion, I don't believe he should get 3 chances to land his q during a gank.

There is a reason outside of Diamond and the occasional nunu these champions are the only champions seeing pro jungle play this season. Their kits have no weakness compared to nonmeta junglers. Compare Nautilus's weaknesses to Nidalee's Nautilus Immobile
Low Damage Low Range(if nautilus misses his hook, he's screwed up the gank, Nid misses spear, she can still pounce in and burst) bad.... really bad?.... atrocious dueling bad 2v2

Nidalee : No CC

I play nautilus a lot in the current jungle and I opt to not take any jungle item, rather building ROA right off the bat after my trailblazer. RoA offers Damage, tankiness and sustain to junglers. I feel like tank itemization could and should look like an RoA, something decently efficient that scales to be pretty efficient and offers them everything they want. Mana/HP, damage.

Khazix is also pretty fun to play in the new jungle. I have to max W to sustain and take trailblazer, but his ganks are great anyway, so an item that lets me gank at full hp is all i want. I can still go 21/9/0 with Kha'zix so I don't feel the jungle is too hard.

ITEMIZATION WILL FIX NOTHING WITH TANK JUNGLERS: The only problem I experience, or that i have seen any tank junglers experience is in levels 1-4. This is before the first back and the new jungle item really wouldn't help in that regard. Lee sin will still kill amumu at his red at level 2, a 1000 gold item will not change that. If your goal is to aid junglers with itemization than you need to offer an alternative(s) to Machete.

Thryale2/28/2015, 1:46:07 AM8 votes

crazy idea here: what if you made a jungle specific trinket?

Jungle Potion: heals champion for 150 hp over 15 seconds. Has 3 charges, restores a charge for each large monster killed. (can only be selected if you have smite)

That would help with the "potion tax"

Noticed2/28/2015, 1:46:18 AM7 votes

I feel like the jungle is the type of role to fill in for what the team needs. If the team needs a tank, then they can play tank. If the team needs a high dmg assassin, then they can play an assassin. If they need a tanky bruiser then they can do so. I feel like you guys are trying to make this role into one class, and that's just not what is best in my opinion. Also, a HUGE reason why I think poachers is a failure is because you can see the enemy buy it. Right when you see the enemy buy poachers you already know their trying to counter jungle you. when the whole reason of counter jungeling is to put the enemy behind and you ahead without them knowing. Just my thoughts! Would love to hear what others have to say.

JacopoPeterman2/28/2015, 1:37:15 AM7 votes

I don't like the Naut PBE change, please keep a close eye on it. He already had minimal damage, and lowering it will only hurt him.

Granty2/28/2015, 4:07:06 AM7 votes

Farming will never be a viable choice in this jungle. The spawn timers are just too high. If you're a champ that farms quick you have a lot of down time while waiting for camps to respawn. Unless the respawn timers change or you make it so farming becomes unbelievably broken, it just will not be a smart idea. Quite frankly though, I'm glad it wont be possible. Remember the Feral Flare 4v4's until 20 minutes where the players emerged from the jungle and suddenly the game became a 6v6? People just do not want junglers who PvE.

The real 'problem' with the jungle is that everyone wants strong early/mid game ganking champs on their team. Those sorts of champs just fit into the jungle perfectly. They clear fast, they can snowball lanes and they can kill the enemy jungler and deny him farm. Unless the game gets changed beyond recognition, this will not change. You can nerf whoever the top tier champs are as much as you like, but until there are no champions left with early/mid game strength they will just get replaced by the next.

Champions that require a lot of farm don't really belong in the jungle anyway, if you need farm you should be in a solo lane. It's not a coincidence that after Maokai's little rework he went straight into top. He wants more gold so he can become a monster faster, why would he waste that potential in the jungle?

The Season 5 jungle is honestly just a catastrophic failure. In Season 4 going non-top tier junglers was fine, you could potentially have some issues if the enemy top tier jungler played perfectly but it was definitely still possible to do extremely well as champs with weaker early game and slower clear, but now if even the tier 1 junglers struggle simply against the jungle itself, how do you think the non-top tier champs do?

The only thing that had potential to be good in Season 5 jungle was the variety of smites but even they ended up being useless. Purple got nerfed when it was the only thing keeping everyone alive, Blue got over nerfed, Red is only good on a handful and White is just pure garbage so now everyone just goes back to using Purple.

If you compare being a jungler in Season 4 to being a jungler in Season 5:

  • The camp damage and health increased a lot
  • The gold conservation passive removed
  • The camps take a long time to respawn
  • Smite cooldown increased by 20 seconds
  • No spirit stone health/mana return sustain

Add them all together and you increase the gap between the tiers tenfold. Where's the upside to the jungle?

I've played jungle a lot since Season 3 and I've never found the jungle less enjoyable than I do now.

Hermes2/28/2015, 3:13:45 AM6 votes

A few more thoughts about the current problems with jungle champion diversity:

What is the basic responsibility of jungle? In my view, it's to apply as much pressure and have as great an impact as possible in the areas of the map and stages of the game where you believe it will benefit your team the most. And what this in turn most often translates to in both competitive play and solo queue at present is having a good early game. Why? I believe that this is in large part because of the general nerfs to jungle gold and experience compared with S4. Getting both the jungler and a lane (or several lanes) ahead is now relatively more beneficial (compared to in the past) than power farming and trying to scale well into late game team fights, as even the best power farmers usually come out of the jungle with insufficient tools to carry a team that has fallen behind early. By seemingly attempting to shift junglers further toward the "support plus" role with less gold and experience for their time clearing, Riot has ironically made early, high-impact DPS junglers even more attractive vs. scalers such as devourer junglers and tanks. A difficult, unprofitable jungle actually lowers the opportunity cost for attempting early ganks.

As long as this is true, I believe that champions who can get their first clear done to fill out their kit and quickly move on to gank effectively will continue to dominate the pick and ban phase. The general weakness of jungle scaling means that sacrificing the early game for a better late game is simply less attractive than before.

Unless jungle camps are made profitable again to the point where scalers can actually outscale the impact of early ganks (thus making counterjungling once more a worthwhile endeavor in the bargain), I think we will continue to see a lack of diversity. I understand that Riot does not want to see a static jungle farming competition take the place of a dynamic early game, but jungle diversity has always been a balance between the four categories roughly embodied by the very jungle items of S5: ganker, counterjungler, farmer/scaling DPS, and farmer/tank. With three of those roles highly dependent upon the jungle itself, is it really any wonder that the most powerful gankers are sitting pretty on top?

M Schumacher3/1/2015, 9:40:48 AM5 votes

Nerfing Lee Sin into the ground would be a good start.

Having an entire CLASS of champions balanced around one is pretty stupid. Its blatant favoritism towards champions like Lee Sin that keeps the jungle stale. Literally nothing has changed since season 4 except even fewer junglers can manage to clear properly now.

It just changed from Elise/Eve/Lee to J4/Vi/Lee

But instead of nerfing those champions Riot just continues to nerf junglers as a whole changing nothing but making it harder on those champions that aren't the afformentioned 3.

A Small Dog2/28/2015, 1:41:46 AM5 votes

Being a relatively new player, I actually never jungled before the update so when I took my first steps in the (new) jungle it was pretty over-whelming to say the least. While I understand the fact it needs to be a bit tougher so it's not just a place to farm for a bit then just dart to a lane for a gank.

It would be nice if the camps were just a tad easier to kill on the first couple levels or more rewarding, without having to go back with only, if I'm lucky, 400g. Granted I am new so I know full well I am not an amazing player at this point and most likely I am doing some things wrong but having a role, which is a very important role, in the jungle that is hard and some times pretty unforgiving can be really discouraging to get into.

You can't really learn to jungle VSing bots because there's no enemy jungler. So besides normals you can't really get the feel for the role without having a massive weight on your shoulders, and also kind of mentally stressful since everything is the jungler's fault it seems. I guess I'm just rambling at this point lol.

JustSomeClothing2/28/2015, 2:06:50 AM5 votes

What's the possibility of introducing a jungle item that helps support-focused junglers get vision control, similar to how Quill Coat was?

Critkeeper2/28/2015, 2:09:52 AM5 votes

If you want to make counterjungling a thing you have to actually MAKE IT A THING.

What I mean is that a nunu doesn't give 2 cents about some worthless speedboost or extra gold from stealing a camp because nobody will catch him anyway, and he will take all the gold in your jungle anyway. Counterjungling isn't about getting yourself ahead its about shutting the enemy down.

So make it about that.

Make it about shutting the enemy jungle down. Not specifically the jungler. The whole friggin jungle, and anybody who uses it to travel or farm or otherwise.

Here is one example of how to do that:

You kill an enemy camp with smite with the counterjungling machete upgrade, and now you gain clairavoyance level vision centered on the camp via a ward that is invisible for 20 seconds and then visible until the camp respawns, at which point it is destroyed.

Voila, now you are going to see many more counterjunglers and there will be a real reason to take them-- and it doesn't step on anybodies toes either because there is an actual paper-rock scissors effect.

Counterjungling would counter gank style junglers because it would allow your team to maintain vision of them and would cut off a significant portion of their gank potential if you take their most cherished buffs.

Farm jungling would counter counterjungling because the vision it provides can be denied if you are clearing fast enough to blow up the ward once it becomes visible, and you can't counterjungle every camp so a farm jungler will just clear the next one. In other words it only sets back a farm jungler marginally.

Gank jungling counters farm jungling because having 50 stacks of devourer doesn't mean anything if your team is too far behind to support you.

AuralVampire2/28/2015, 3:35:41 PM4 votes

Hey there, just wanna step in and I'd love to know why no one tried to fix the whole experience thing. In my point of view it is one of the most dissatisfying moments in jungling when mid laners and top laners hit level 6 and you as jungler are level 4. A lot of junglers have good use of their ultimate for ganking but there is just no I'm-lvl-6-let's-get-sh*t-done-moment anymore since lanes are ahead of you. Also the ability to deal damage is crippled because of this experience disadvantage. Maokai loses 45 damage on his 6 second cd Q, Hecarim loses 35 damage on his 4 second cd Q because he hasn't got the level. Next is the overall stats. Being two levels down means not having 190 HP more (in comparison to level 6 Hecarim) and for maokai it would be 180 HP difference, that's more than a ruby crystal (!). To have or not to have. In the past I liked to tower dive and/or get the level 6 kill with utility ultimates like hecarims or damage ultimates like volibears 75 bonus magic damage on hit, now it feels dangerous to early gank as tank jungler without real tankiness and damage (and missing utility coming with ult?).

Yes there are the other problems already mentioned and pointed out in this thread as well, but I just felt everybody is talking about items and clearing speed and no one is talking about the level disadvantage which can be converted into a gold amount missing out. Again: Maokai at level 4 in comparison to level 6 is missing out on 6.6 AD, 180 HP, 8 armor and ability damage, accumulating to (237.6 gold+480.6 gold+160 gold=) 878.2 gold (all stat differnces and gold values taken from leagueoflegends.wikia.com)

Apollo8172/28/2015, 7:46:42 AM4 votes

I don't know if it's too late or not to give my two cents, but I'll give it a shot. I've played Nautilus since Season 2 and I love the snot out of him, played more than a few games with him. From my own experience, I think the real struggle for tank junglers are the early clears. I'm talking extremely early, as in levels 1-3. Tank junglers, really don't have a problem clearing the jungle mid to late game, they actually do quite alright. The real problem is their early clears. I honestly don't feel like the recent additions to the PBE with the Cinderhulk is a step in the right direction. By the time they're able to purchase this item for more clearing power, they have enough clearing power on their own making Cinderhulk kind of redundant. In my eyes, at least. The real problem are the initial clears, the monsters have just gotten so strong over the years. The tanks really just need help right from the get-go.

I'm interested to hear if any Rioters (or anyone else for that matter) agree or disagree with this train of thought. I'm probably too late since the thread was posted, but one can hope.

And as a side note, please don't change the stats on the item. 10% CDR, tenacity, and a bunch of flat health is so crucial. My heart was broken the last time the health and tenacity were taken away from SotAG.