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Janna changes have assured me that Riot doesn't have an idea on how to make enchanters interact more

Weiss Guertena·9/14/2017, 12:37:08 PM·161 votes·6,325 views

First it was Soraka, whose original rework intended to make her more interactive for opponents - in which it succeded brilliantly. Of course, they had to "fix" it by nerfing her offensive capabilities every time she dared to try and play actively, leaving her Q - previously a high-risk high-reward ability with decent amount of skill expression - a shadow of its former self.

And now we have this bullshit. Let's get over the changes, shall we?

-More range on AAs and damage scaling with bonus MS Range would be a push in the right direction, but damage portion is completely and utterly insignificant. It will have near zero impact early game, where all the bonus movespeed you'll get will be from your (nerfed) passive and (nerfed) W, and when it actually comes online with items it will only barely be able to compensate for AD nerfs.

-Q base range increased, CD reduced, range buildup decreased An actual compensation buff for other changes - and in a wrong area. This simply makes a double-tap Q for peel a better option. I fail to see how this will serve to make her more agressive.

-W bonus movespeed reduced W is actually more impacted with passive changes: now, by using W I not only lose movespeed but also damage - thus making this ability counterproductive to use unless I absolutely need the slow. One less offensive tool in her kit - way to go to make her more "interactive"

-Almost double early shield CD The elephant in the room. How in the seven hells do you expect a champion to be more interactive when you fucking double their main trading tool's cooldown? Even the worst Bronze 5 players could tell that halving the uptime of your main trading tool will - big surprise - make you want to trade half as often?

This accomplishes the complete opposite of making her more interactive. Sometimes I wonder if Riot's balance team even plays their own game: "Hey guys, let's try and make this uninteractive champion more interactive by nerfing every single way she has to interact with her opponents! That will surely make her want to trade more in lane!". Come mid game, her agresiveness is still lower than in her current state. You might get a few stray autos with your improved range, but they won't deal much more damage due to AD nerfs, using your W offensively is out of the question - and your shield, Q and R are unchanged, making her even more passive.

Seriously, changes that were on PBE some time ago were damn perfect: -Q and E increased CD and manacost -W has no cost, reduces other ablilties cooldowns and restores mana on champion hit

These were nerfing her passive playstyle while encouraging her to be agressive by providing actual benefits for doing so. But Riot doesn't actually want enchanters to have viable interactions with their opponents (as evidenced with Soraka above and these changes); they'll just say that they do and proceed to make changes which do exactly the opposite.

EDIT: Holy crap, didn't expect my rage-induced wall of text over neutering my favorite support to explode this much. Love you guys and girls.

145 Comments

option paralysis9/14/2017, 3:00:28 PM64 votes

Yep. It was hard to adjust to Soraka after the rework. You could max q in lane first and be aggressive, which is what they wanted. But they nerfed it by moving self heal on w, so we maxed it first. Then they said that was op, so they DOUBLED the cd on w. And here we are, back where we started. Which is stand back and heal. Wonderful course of balance.

WinTheWarOnPants9/14/2017, 6:33:32 PM32 votes

Riots sup balancing philosophy [sg-ahri-3] Work sups to make their utility have counterplay [sg-ahri-2] Nerf utility and just tack on some dmg.

Pray for us All9/14/2017, 5:38:47 PM23 votes

I couldn't agree more with this post. As a Janna main, I am completely tilted by the current PBE changes. I remember a few months ago taking a survey on which champions I prefer and why. My two top picks were Janna and Soraka because of their kits. I explained why Janna is my favorite and that's because of what she offers, her shield and peeling abilities. Before the rework/buff to Ardent Censor, I would be able to get Janna 95% of the time. Now she is pick or ban (mainly ban) because of AC. Why not change the root of the issue [AC]? This is not just a nerf to Janna's kit, it's a complete rework! Now that Janna is being changed to where she no longer fits my style of play, I have no choice but to spam Lulu because she plays similar to that of Janna. Lulu will eventually become pick/ban and than what? Rework/nerf her as well? Who will be next? Soraka? Sona? Again I ask, why not rework the root of the main issue here... Ardent Censor.

IxtaliKing9/14/2017, 3:48:31 PM15 votes

First it was Soraka, whose original rework intended to make her more interactive for opponents - in which it succeded brilliantly. Of course, they had to "fix" it by nerfing her offensive capabilities every time she dared to try and play actively, leaving her Q - previously a high-risk high-reward ability with decent amount of skill expression - a shadow of its former self.

For real... Her old Q with the increased damage in the center was much more fun and satisfying, and that's mostly due to the skill expression it had. Completely forgot about about that Soraka, I actually used to enjoy her back then.

Those Janna changes though... I like the increased AA range and the idea of having scaling magic damage on her autos, but I'm not too sure about the MS scaling. Especially with the those nerfs to her MS. Personally I think Janna needs an entirely new W, the spell is super out dated and is taking up a slot that could be filled with something that really can give her skill expression and interactivity.

Leonerdo9/14/2017, 6:58:32 PM13 votes

The goals behind the changes:

  1. AA range buff: Every ranged support like to poke/harass at least a little bit with their autos. Janna is the only one who can't do that currently, mostly because of her short range. The range buff is a pretty straightforward change to put her small-scale trading (AAs + 1 or 2 abilities) on-par with other enchanters.
  2. Passive AA damage from MS: This is more of a thematic/playstyle nudge than a core-gameplay change. It encourages Janna players to get MS and go fast, and this ties in to the passive MS she already had; thus it gives more interaction between her separate abilities, and makes her theme more cohesive. It's not a big change, but instead of viewing the free MS on her W as just a reason to skip boots, now Janna players have a lot more trade-offs to think about (Early boots for damage? Use W for slow, or save it for damage? Can I get MS runes, early boots, and max W for a roaming build?) We'll have to see how many of those questions really matter in the future, but the intent is that there are more decisions and interactions around her iconic MS now.
  3. Q changes: The kicker here is that the travel-time will be fixed on the new Q. This means that the longer you charge it, the faster it moves. Which means it can actually hit long-range targets. More than the other changes, we are really going to have to wait and see if this hits the mark. But my gut reaction is that missle-speed on skillshots is really valuable, so maybe fishing for long-range Qs in lane (gank set-up) will actually be viable now. And of course the other small buffs are nice too, since I think this is one of Janna's most interesting/interactive abilities.
  4. E CD nerf: This is less about what Janna can do, and more about what her enemies can do. Currently, there's just not much room to poke against a Janna lane. The whole "bait out Janna's shield, and then go for a heavy trade" doesn't work well, because the next shield just comes up too soon; at best, Janna's opponents have 5 seconds to engage, trade, and disengage. This nerf makes that window of opportunity more realistic. It also makes maxing E more important, to counteract the new benefits (damage from passive) she gets from maxing W.
  5. Base Stat changes: The MS nerf and AD nerf are, of course, to balance out the passive changes. The point of the passive changes was to create new trade-offs/interactions, not to buff Janna overall or make her into an ADC. So her overall MS is supposed to stay roughly the same, and I think her AA damage is supposed to be nearly the same or slightly better (which it is; I did the math). I'm not as sure about the HP changes, but I think they are supposed to counteract her increased late-game, back-line performance from the Q buffs and AA buffs.

Now of course, those are just the goals of the changes. We'll have to see if they work out that way. Ya'know work-in-progress, subject-to-change, etc. Personally, I think they look pretty snazzy, although I'm especially uncertain about the Q changes working out as intended.

Dengeden9/14/2017, 5:31:18 PM10 votes

Look at Janna's winrate and pickrate, now back to me. If she were any other champion, you'd be crying for nerfs.

Riot doesn't actually want enchanters to have viable interactions with their opponents

Well yes, that's not the only point. They also want the people playing against the likes of Janna and Raka to try and interact with them and Janna and Raka to avoid that.

Skorch9/14/2017, 1:35:40 PM7 votes

I will say 1 thing on this. I THINK the point of the Q changes were to make it more reliable to engage in lane. Whether or not it worked I dont know.

I agree with all of this though.

CrimsonLotus39/14/2017, 7:57:54 PM6 votes

I dont understand the point skill expresiion on easy champs. THEY ARE BEGINNER CHAMPS FOR A REASON [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Akahrî9/14/2017, 9:50:22 PM6 votes

[sg-janna]

Why Increase cd on her shield in the early game to 18??????

Thilmer9/14/2017, 9:25:38 PM5 votes

Janna needs a damn nerf, item 3504 needs a damn nerf and half the ADCs in the rooster needs a damn nerf.

Stop with this "small fixes" and bleblebleh... we need nerfs. Serious nerfs.

People that don't play in the botlane is tired of this stupid metagame.

HeresyHorus9/14/2017, 10:57:40 PM5 votes

Supports dont need gutting, it is the ranged BpS ( mainly Crit ) availiable to ADCs that needs it.

Supports are not a problem when paired with anything other than ADCs becuase all other classes have thier main source pf threat gated behind something ( CDs, Combo, Skillshots, Mobility ... etc ) unlike ADCs ranged BpS, period.

When a Mage all ins or get focused and got peeled by his Support in the process he will still have to fall back cuz he have his main threat source gated from the ordeal ( CDs on Ults and the need to reposition to land a combo enabler for the likes of Cassiopeia Ryze ).

Same goes for AD and AP Assassins( unless the AD assassin is smart and build item 3031 item 3046 item 3812 like i do to have access to BpS ).

Same goes for Fighters cuz thier Mobility, CC and summoner 4 are on CD too.

ADCs are the only class that dont have their main threat source gated behind anything ( Hostility, hard CC and death apply for all ) and it would have been OK if they didnt have that 2.5 multiplier that affects everything tagged to their autos and benefits form attack speed too, thats why shields and life steal and pretty much anything look broken on them while in truth they are not ( Janna E give them 40 * 2.5 = 100 damage on thier autos Lulu W changed to grant attack speed instead of AP cuz ADC bias and to break Crit builds even more )

Kill that Crit + attack speed synergy and all will be good for ADCs, Supports and everyone.

Dont gut supports to be just ward bots like they used to be before.

Kloqdq9/15/2017, 1:28:38 PM3 votes

I really wish they played with the W change from before and ran with it some more. I do not think stuffing random AA damage into her kit is going to help her. Hell you are actually punished 2 fold by just using W so you won't ever use it. I wish they pulled the passive from W, merged it with the passive, enhanced elements of W, nerfed the AD on E because it is the main issue and touched up the R. Maybe then add a new element to the kit but god, not this terrible, terrible AA damage one.

Oleandervine9/15/2017, 4:55:09 AM3 votes

Here's a way to make her more interactive - have every champ she hits with her tornado give her a stacking buff that increases her next shield's capacity.

chipndip19/14/2017, 5:33:32 PM2 votes

Upvoted just for the title.

TheMoralSupport9/14/2017, 8:45:46 PM2 votes

Thank you.

rtbf2256182419/14/2017, 7:02:21 PM2 votes

Of course, they had to "fix" it by nerfing her offensive capabilities every time she dared to try and play actively, leaving her Q - previously a high-risk high-reward ability with decent amount of skill expression - a shadow of its former self.

The Q was so good. It was so satisfying and difficult to land. Honestly, they have no clue how to make Enchanters' kits more skill oriented.

-More range on AAs and damage scaling with bonus MS Range would be a push in the right direction, but damage portion is completely and utterly insignificant. It will have near zero impact early game, where all the bonus movespeed you'll get will be from your (nerfed) passive and (nerfed) W, and when it actually comes online with items it will only barely be able to compensate for AD nerfs.

Especially considering i build fucking Mobility Boots so i can only do this once per 5 seconds or so.

Seriously, changes that were on PBE some time ago were damn perfect: -Q and E increased CD and manacost -W has no cost, reduces other ablilties cooldowns and restores mana on champion hit

I didn't actually know about the latter. This is really good! But ofcourse "this" had to replace it.

The Yetii Rider9/14/2017, 6:42:07 PM2 votes

They nerfed Janna's health after ...level 3, I believe?

So now she's easier to kill. She loses ~90-100 health by level 18.

That's going to sufficiently hit her win rate.

Lucifer9/14/2017, 7:03:47 PM2 votes

I like the new W changes, personally. I do think the shield cd early game is way too long.

If anything, I'd like if they boosted up her AP ratios somehow (either on howling gale or zephyr), and maybe reduced shield duration. lower base shield, and the slow duration on W to compensate.

The old changes nuked her howling gale (huge CD) and zephyr (way less damage) so I really don't think those were the right changes to push her into an aggressive playstyle. Her shield needed to be hit. To 18 seconds? Err, that's pretty overkill.

I'm seriously concerned that Riot Repertoir thinks she needs further damage nerfs after this :/

Also, the W CD nerfs/buffs have different numbers, the one on PBE and the one from his notes. Which one is supposed to be correct? 8 seconds and 9.5 seconds at max rank is a noticeable difference in power.

TheHappyReaperz9/14/2017, 11:44:54 PM2 votes

As someone who never played Soraka before her rework, I was kinda interested in seeing what her old Q was, given that it had such skill expression. So, I looked it up, and it tuned out to be this: Starcall RANGE: 530 COST: 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 MANA COOLDOWN: 2.5

ACTIVE: Soraka summons a shower of stars to fall from the sky, striking all nearby enemy units within range for magic damage and reducing their magic resistance by 6 (+ 1% AP) for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 10 times. MAGIC DAMAGE: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+ 40% AP) If Starcall hits at least one enemy champion, Astral Blessing's cooldown is reduced by a percentage of its base cooldown (after factoring in cooldown reduction). ASTRAL BLESSING'S COOLDOWN REDUCTION: 10 / 11.25 / 12.5 / 13.75 / 15%

How is there any form of skill in this ability? Spam Q, shred enemies, heal allies.

Death Rex9/14/2017, 7:44:33 PM1 votes

I think the increased AA range is for the sole purpose of her being able to buy the blue support item instead of the coin

Tristanl0l9/14/2017, 11:07:20 PM1 votes

"NERF JANNA NERF JANNA!!!"

"WAH THEY NERFED JANNA I DONT LIKE THIS NERF NERF SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD WAH!!!"