The Donger, Heimerdinger needs some love!!!

Dragorune··5 votes·2,100 views

Hey everyone out there I've played league for several years now, nothing too serious mainly just for fun.

One of my favourite champions is the donger Heimerdinger however he's having a really hard time and what I consider the core of his kit has become far from optimal to use.

To start out the defining feature of the donger's kit and gameplay are his turrets which would require you to out play you're opponent by thinking ahead of time. In the old good days you could even win a 1vs2 gank in top lane under the right conditions.


TLDR The Donger's turrets used to be the bread and butter of his kit and what he was originally designed around. Right now in 90% of the games they have become his secondary or tertiary ability. This is because of the game has changed and evolved overtime. His turrets implied his gamestyle and character, a champion which would defeat his opponents by planning ahead and pushing hard. This element has been mostly destroyed in The Donger unfortunately. I think his turrets need some decent love and especially considering he's low mobility champion he could use a power boost. Right now his rockets (and ult) take all the glory and have removed most of the elements that used to be core to Heimerdinger.

(for specific arguments read below, please give constructive feedback)

What has happened to his turrets Now over time it has become harder to use his turrets properly and outplay people this has been due to a number of reasons but let's take a view at some of these.

* Blinks/dashes/displacements have become more common and accesible since he was first introduced a lot of the old champions like tryndamere  ![Tryndamere](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Tryndamere.png), nunu ![Nunu](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Nunu.png), nasus ![Nasus](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Nasus.png) and (old) gangplanck ![Gangplank](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Gangplank.png)  who used to play (and one of them making their return) top didn't have those kind of things. Even the movement speed buffs this champions had were relatively weaker than what is seen today. This would give your turrets the time to hit those champions before they would be right on top of you. For midlane it was the same thing look at champions that used to be quite common very early in the game malzahar ![Malzahar](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Malzahar.png) , veigar ![Veigar](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Veigar.png) , anivia ![Anivia](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Anivia.png)  and ryze ![Ryze](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Ryze.png). Now some of these are back and it's quite doable to play against these in several cases.

* To follow up the removal of the slow and increased attack speed on his turrets with the use of his old ult, yes the new ult is much better but this removed the strong guaranteed slow which helped incredibly well when kiting people around your turrets.

* Range has increased or and become more common. A lot of champions that are played at the moment have often greater range than they used to have early on in the game. Also ranged champions have become more common or champions have gotten reworks that have given them more range. This is something that has luckily been adressed a bit with the rework of the juggernauts however all of these have gotten things that make it fairly easy to close a gap except for mordekaiser. Champions that have got a lot of range are champions like azir ![Azir](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Azir.png)  (which we will come back to later) and ![Viktor](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Viktor.png). Which are two of the very common picks. Often this brings a lot of poke which means that if you put the turrets down they will either be poked down before the fight even starts.

* In accordance with the previous point more area of effect damage has become available, think about the new items that were introduced and the barrels introduced in gangplancks rework. The reason why this is an easy is because of the often generally large areas. Heimerdinger is slow and can only place turrets within a very limited range of himself. This makes it very hard for Heimer to place the turrets just before or during a teamfight. If they are placed even sligthly too close they will be blown up by AoE damage.

* The removal of the turrets always being active. Now don't get me wrong I understand that you removed this to give him power in other places and that this is indeed an extremely powerfull mechanism. Nonetheless this completed annihilated the split pushing potential heimerdinger had. This way he was able to defend one lane while pushing another one. 

* The updated turret targeting system, this one screwed over heimerdinger in a big way. A year or so ago you changed it so that turrets would target pets over minions meaning you couldn't fast push that effectively anymore with heimerdinger.

* The better versions. Right now there are actually TWO champions that have better turret like abilities than the donger has these are Zyra ![Zyra](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Zyra.png) and ![Azir](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Azir.png) (I'm talking about the turret like abilities not champions as a whole). Why are theirs better well let's start with the obvious one Azir. His soldiers can not be killed at all and will last 9 seconds (or 4.5) this is longer than one of the donger's turrets will ever survive in a teamfight (late game the donger's won't even last 4.5 seconds), this is a huge advantage. They can not be displaced either (I'm looking at you syndra ![Syndra](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Syndra.png) ) which gives much more zoning potential, on top of that he has an ability that let's him displace them should the target/teamfight move. Now they're two more things, the recharge time is much higher making it less painfull to misplace them and Rylai's Crystal Scepter ![item 3116](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/3116.png) slows for 40% while on for 20% with the donger. It's looks pretty obvious to me that these are all substantial benefits. Now let's take a quick look at zyra, again she has a recharge rate which is substantially better than the donger's. Also since you made heimer more or less impractical to play in the top lane with the rework we can focus on midlane. Now most midlaners have either slow ranged auto-attacks (accept for azir, again) or melee auto-attacks (meaning they have to get close). Now Zyra's turret plants can be destroyed but instead of having health it takes 3 auto-attacks or 10 seconds. In the game this translates to Zyra's plants generally outlasting the donger's turrets apart from he's between level 11 to 14/15, meaning that most of the game her plants actually have more survivability. Why is that, well during the early to begin mid-game the opposite midlaner can not take them out that easily with AoE or even spells making it very inconvenient to take them out. Late game those auto-attacks often have to be spend elsewhere because having to use 9 auto-attacks on a non-priority target takes to long. On top of that she can also place the plants at a much greater ranger than the donger can.

The Donger needs some well deserved love Unfortunately the donger is was played in less than 1% of all games last month and most of the games that he's being played in are either normal, bronze, silver or gold. He can still work there because a lot of people just don't know the champion and thus often don't know how to play against him. However that shouldn't be a condition for a champion to be able to win.

As said by meddler a few days ago (http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/NzjhxoyR-some-gameplay-work-in-progress-general-gameplay-thoughts-10202015?comment=00520000) :

Being a low mobility champ should allow you to get access to some pretty powerful stuff that wouldn't be appropriate on champs with dashes/blinks etc. Kog'Maw and Anivia are good examples to me of where that's been done right, with both of them being options that more mobile marksmen/mages respectively don't offer.

Heimerdinger should also get acces to this more powerfull stuff. Veigar by example has already acces to this very powerfull stuff as well, he has an immense zoning/stun tool that will help him protect himself from all the blinks and dashes in the game since they most of them can't go through. Anivia's walls is also a huge help and if that's not enough she has the slow from her ult. Azir who is slow has his ult and has actually quite a bit of mobility if he needs to with is soldiers. Cassiopeia Cassiopeia is also a bit slow but has an movement speed buff in her kit and a great ult with stun/slow.

But How?

Well there's a multitude of options and I just want to present some of them here and let you guys chose what you think would be a good idea. The thing is the people at Riot are in general quite amazing and often come up with amazing solutions, so there's a good chance they might come up with something else.

Let's look at some of the possibilities

  • Increase the range of the auto-attack on his turrets so that most champions can not simply sit and auto-attack out of aggro range. This would be a very heavy buff but I don't think it would necessarily break the game, setting it at 575 or 600 range still allows for most abilities user to get within range to attack the turrets without getting aggroed by the auto-attacks (not talking about lasers).
  • Another option is to look at the recent teemo rework for placing his mushrooms. Giving the donger to place the turrets from further away will keep him out of harms way in the mids of teamfights and allow him to get them in the position. (doesn't necessarily need the bounce , just increased ranged per lvl would help a lot, or maybe as a passive on his ult).
  • Make the turrets more durable, especially regarding AoE. Maybe even overhaul the whole health sytem that's on the turrets right now and make it something more similar to Zyra's. Or give them a few seconds of immunity upon initial placement to help out in teamfights.
  • Change the passive so that the turrets can proc the slow that was on his old ult, this can be conditional proc, like upon placement of every second/third turret (every x seconds).
  • Something else that would be amazing with the current double teleport is not having the turrets deactivate after 8 seconds. This would return Heimerdinge rto his old days of pushing glory instead of just using the turrets right now to block a Nidalee spear or something.
  • Other options could be to give the turrets a shield based on certain condition or make it even so that when you use the summoner Barrier that it's also cast on your turrets (even if it's a toned down version).
  • Furthermore the turrets could have a better recharge time.

Nonsense Heimerdinger has a 53% winrate

For everyone saying stuff like, heimerdinger is in a good spot right now or Heimerdinger is SOOOOOOOOO annoying to play against, etc. I'm sorry guys but don't base your impressions on numbers or the fact that heimerdinger just happens to be good against your champion. Heimerdinger has had a winrate of about 53% over the last month which is above average, this should mean heimer is in a good spot right? (source http://loldb.gameguyz.com/statistics/winRate) No those numbers don't say anything, he was played less than 1% of the time. If you have ever had a class in statistics you will know that the smaller the number the bigger a deviation can be. This means that this van be partially a fluke or probably 1 or 2%. Consider it like this, roll a die 6 times, did you roll every number on the die exactly once? No probably not even though the chance of rolling a number is 1/6th. meaning that all of a sudden one number has one number was rolled 0% of the time and anohter maybe 50% (3 times) while the expected numbers would 16.7% per number. Now roll that same die again but roll it 600 times and you'll get much better results. Apart from that there's another factor at work. Most people that do play Heimerdinger have been playing him for a long while and know him pretty well aming them good at him while on the other hand a lot of oppenents almost never or never encounter(ed) a heimerdinger. This can put players who play him in a very favorable spot especially at lower ranking levels of gameplay. Just because some number says heimer is winning doesn't mean he's a good champion all of a sudden.

So please if you comment bring some arguments to the discussion and please give constructive feedback.

I hope that someone from Riot (a Red) sees this post and maybe give us some more info on the current ideas about Heimer within Riot and if there are any plans.

My best regards and thanks to the amazing people at Riot and everyone who made it to the end of this long post

55 Comments

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

If the opponent is good at making your turrets worthless, max your missiles first.

Dragorune3 votes

I know that's the reasonable thing to do. My whole point here is that currently turrets have become pretty useless in most of the games while Heimerdinger was originally designed around his turrets they used to be the bread and butter of his kit. That is what I'm missing, the turrets having a good impact. With the rework his rockets have basically become much more important than his turrets and right now if you have a good player against you in 90% of the cases you'll have to max rockets first.

The problem here is that Heimerdinger is not about his rockets but about his turrets, that is what he was originally designed around and which implied him to be a pushing machine and someone who could outplay the opponent by planning ahead. This has been lost with the update and is almost non-existent when using the rockets.

Thanks for the comment though

General Esdeath 3 votes

Donger is fine the way he is because he forces the enemy team to let you push up. He can still 1v2 and 1v3 top

3tyson3 votes

isnt buffing donger like a bit like letting mordekaiser take a ghost baron with him ?

Dragorune2 votes

Based on what?

I'm sorry but it far from is.

Please give an argument as to why you think that.

3tyson2 votes

{quoted}

Based on what?

I'm sorry but it far from is.

Please give an argument as to why you think that.

because sure donger might have some bad counters that wil destroy him but if hes not getting counterd hes most likely going to rape the lane and win all the time without anny fear of a jungler or w/e

actually it seems allot like mord you gank you lose you dont gank you lose

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

I have a similar opinion, but mine is more specific.

I think that Heimerdinger needs to have a lot of his power taken out of his turrets, because they encourage really boring gameplay. Because they have unlimited duration, unlike every other summoned minion in the game, Heimerdinger's gameplay mostly revolves around creating your damage dorito and getting the enemy laner to walk into it. In essence, his gameplay is focused around being super passive in lane, and there aren't really a whole lot of opportunities to show agency, unless you poke with your rockets or your stun grenade.

But because of your turrets, you basically cannot be ganked, and you will win every trade with your opponent so long as they don't outrange your turrets, which is really hard because of their long-range laser attack.

I dislike Heimerdinger for the same reason that I dislike a champion like Nasus. You don't really interact all that much, although in Heimerdinger's case it's a lack of interaction with the enemy team, and Nasus is a champion that never interacts with his own team until very late in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Heimerdinger could use buffs, but I think that buffing his turrets is 100% the wrong choice, as it would just make him incredibly oppressive. Heck, Heimerdinger is already incredibly oppressive with the exception of a few matchups, in which case he gets wrecked, -because- of his turrets.

If I were to buff Heimerdinger, I would limit him to having 3 turrets, between the ones that are currently on the map, and the ones that exist in the form of Q charges, but allow him to pick up turrets to instantly gain a charge, by right-clicking them. I would then probably increase the missile speed of his E.

Dragorune1 votes

Thanks for the comment.

Right now Heimer can only have 3 turrets on the map already and what you propose by limiting it to a total of 3 but also counting charges is not a bad idea, letting him instantly pick them up gives him much more control in teamfights.

Turrets could use a rework, they don't necessarily need to last infinitely in my opinion.

Lasers are actually quite easy to avoid as long as there are only one or two turrets. The trick to defeat a heimer and just negate him everything is destroying his turrets as soon as he places them because of the long recharge rate. Turrets don't spawn with lasers anymore so it isn't that hard to do. Turrets are relatively weak throughout most of the game except during a few levels.

Most champions do outrange your turrets because lasers are relatively easy to avoid if you pay attention. The AI is actually quie predictive and you can see how far they are charged as soon as they fire destroy the turrets and profit.

Most midlaners can easily destroy his turrets without any effort. almost any ability mages have has greater range than 525 (which is his turret range), turrets have a 25 second cooldown while most abilities are somewhere around 8 seconds. Aka kill the turret as soon as heimer places it without taking damage and he has only two abilities left for 20 to 25 seconds while you have all you're abilities up in about 8 seconds. Meaning most midlaners will have an advantage over him 60% (12/20) of the time if they're played by good players who know how to play against Heimer.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

Point taken. Arguably if Heimer's turrets were to work similar to Azir's sand soldiers, I could see them being buffable.

Dragorune1 votes

That would be one of the options in my opinion. Also I'm sure there are more options that I haven't thought of though.

Thanks for the comment.

Mathbalnase3 votes

Remove the current AP->HP scaling on the turrets. Let them scale with Heim's bonus HP, Ar, & MR

Dragorune2 votes

I have the feeling this would actually make him weaker, heimerding is not supposed to be build tanky but more as a mage. however the bonus Ar & MR might help.

Mathbalnase2 votes

Give them some AoE resistance and adjust their base HP scalings if necessary, but Heim should be able to benefit from defensive stats without amputating one of his abilities.

Dragorune1 votes

I agree completely with you on that point. The AoE resistance is something I think is also quite important and would make a big difference.

Leblancs Boob2 votes

Heimerdinger needs a full kit rework badly. He has quite possibly the most uninteractive kit of any champion in the game. Most champions can't do anything against him other than sit at tower, try to farm and slowly wait for laning phase to be over

Dragorune1 votes

I'm sorry but a lot of champions can actually quite easily bully him out of lane at the moment. The trick is that you destroy his turrets as soon as he places them or places two of them too close to each other, they are fairly weak.

I do agree that heimer will need a rework though, at least on some level

Leblancs Boob2 votes

Maybe some champions can. Ever tried getting even close to them as a melee champ? Keep in mind that Heimerdinger usually sets up turrets at game start so he starts off lane with turrets already on the field. That aside most ranged champions can't outshove him anyway and mages, especially earlygame, are usually horrible at cs'ing under tower while being pressured by a Heimerdinger

Dragorune1 votes

Most midlaners can easily destroy his turrets without any effort. almost any ability mages have has greater range than 525 (which is his turret range), turrets have a 25 second cooldown while most abilities are somewhere around 8 seconds. Aka kill the turret as soon as heimer places it without taking damage and he has only two abilities left for 20 to 25 seconds while you have all you're abilities up in about 8 seconds. Meaning most midlaners will have an advantage over him 60% (12/20) of the time if they're played by good players who know how to play against Heimer.

xl Kirito lx1 votes

This logic is pretty funny imo. You're correct, it's not hard to destroy his turrets, but there's a cost associated with it.

Say I'm laning against a Syndra, walk into lane, and place 1 turret. To kill that turret, it's going to take roughly 3 AA's, or 2 Q's. If Syndra moves up to AA' the turret down, she risks getting hit by the charged shot, and I'm going to be harassing her with AA's the entire team. If Syndra uses Q to kill the turret, she'll not only shove the wave, but have spent 80 mana, to deal with the 20 mana I spent. Now, this is an acceptable trade early, since Syndra will have full mana, and myself, can't spam out turrets. But, I'm still getting a positive mana trade, and avoiding harass, with the potential to inflict harass at the same time.

Dragorune2 votes

Syndra picks up the turret (using W), disabling it for that time, uses her Q on you instead and will throw the turret at you to deal damage and throws the turret out of the turrets AA range. In all this time she can stay away far enough that you will never be able to hit her with your own AA let alone the turrets AA. Should she not be able to throw it at you or your minions she can throw it out of range so that it will deactivate or behind her tower.

Her Q has 800 range and her W 925 (950), her AA's have 550 range. All of these outrange your turrets AA's which are 525 range. Your AA is 550 range as well.

The only thing she has to keep in mind is the laser but she can see the charge bar and easily predict the beam and avoid it. Also her Q does not cost 80 mana early game, it costs 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80 MANA. By the time it costs 80 mana, her mana sustain will be high enough for her to easily keep up with it. The only thing you can properly harass her with are your rockets which cost much more 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110 MANA.

Her Q also has a 4 sec CD while your turrets have a recharge rate from 25 to 20 seconds.

Thanks for the comment though :)

xl Kirito lx1 votes

If Syndra's using her W to clear a turret, she's still using mana. And she's not using that mana to harass you. She has to throw it under tower, or into a side brush, otherwise it won't kill the turret. And the turret will continue to shove the lane.

Typically, Syndra doesn't farm from 800 range, and tends to be relatively close, or at least enough to trade auto's with. But sure, I'll cede that point.

The laser on his turrets is actually pretty interesting, since it has some prediction associated with that. You can say how easy it is to dodge, but eventually something will hit.

Correct. It costs 40. It also takes 2 Q's to kill a turret. That's where I got the 80 mana. If you aren't harassing people with your autos nonstop as Heimerdinger, you're playing him wrong lol. I'm also making the assumption that you start with some CDR, and regardless of that, it isn't required for Heimer to always have a turret down.

Theory crafting aside, if I'm not mistaken Heimerdinger still has 50%+ win rate in every divison. I'm also relatively sure that maxing his W first tends to go badly, and same with his E. I'll concede the point that he might not be as turret heavy as he was before, but they're still 33% of his kit. Which, considering that his kit is built to be multifunctional, that seems to be the point.

-- Checking here, why don't you get off of a smurf before posting? It's hard to argue when you're on a level 26 acc.

Dragorune1 votes

[{quoted}](name=xl Kirito lx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zWw520zP,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2015-10-25T02:22:06.465+0000)

If Syndra's using her W to clear a turret, she's still using mana. And she's not using that mana to harass you. She has to throw it under tower, or into a side brush, otherwise it won't kill the turret. And the turret will continue to shove the lane.

She only has to do that when she can not harass you if you are within AA range she can and will throw the turret back at you (I have to check if it only hurts you or also the turret). Nonentheless she will win the harassment trade.

Typically, Syndra doesn't farm from 800 range, and tends to be relatively close, or at least enough to trade auto's with. But sure, I'll cede that point.

If that's the case she's is not using the advantage she has over you.

The laser on his turrets is actually pretty interesting, since it has some prediction associated with that. You can say how easy it is to dodge, but eventually something will hit.

Correct. It costs 40. It also takes 2 Q's to kill a turret. That's where I got the 80 mana. If you aren't harassing people with your autos nonstop as Heimerdinger, you're playing him wrong lol. I'm also making the assumption that you start with some CDR, and regardless of that, it isn't required for Heimer to always have a turret down.

Ok sure so it take 80 mana to destroy, I'll give you that. Doesn't mean she can still harass/out trade you while the turret is down

Theory crafting aside, if I'm not mistaken Heimerdinger still has 50%+ win rate in every divison. I'm also relatively sure that maxing his W first tends to go badly, and same with his E. I'll concede the point that he might not be as turret heavy as he was before, but they're still 33% of his kit. Which, considering that his kit is built to be multifunctional, that seems to be the point.

Yes you still need the turrets for the waveclear because the other two abilities have CD's that are too long and they both are too mana intensive early on to properly clear.

What I want is that his turrets get some love for during teamfights where they get utterly destroyed.

-- Checking here, why don't you get off of a smurf before posting? It's hard to argue when you're on a level 26 acc. Oh I'm sorry but how does that make my points less valid? This is the first acount I ever created and I always use it to go on the forums. (I have a lvl 30 account but I don't use it on the forums)

xl Kirito lx1 votes

As much as people hate to admit it, yes, it does.

If a bronze player complains about Katarina, no one really pays attention. Since Katarina is known for getting fed off of uncoordinated teams, and snowballs incredibly easy.

A few months ago, Cho'Gath was tearing through silver mmr. It's not that Cho'gath was exceptionally strong, it's just that he was incredibly consistent.

Asking for buffs on Heimerdinger... it'd be easier to understand if I knew what mmr you're coming from.

Dragorune1 votes

The arguments I give are valid arguments nonetheless no matter what mmr I would play at.

I want this discussion to be about the arguments people provide and not statements people make.

As such saying that because an argument by a bronze player would be less true is using a fallacy called, "ad-hominem"or agument to the man ( https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem ).

So far no one has countered/adressed any of my arguments.

Some people have brought a few good points and arguments though, such as Heisendong being a player who does exceptionally well with heimerdinger even at high level play. Your arguments are pretty good as well and show that you put actuall thought behind it.

Unfortunately most people just make statements and claims. Even if you are gold, platinum or challenger just because you claim something it isn't true per say. ( which comes down to https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority and https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal )

Nekusen2 votes

the main problem with turrets are:

  • how incredibly useless they are lategame
  • how they force you to rush to lane to set them, which doesn't allow you to leash
  • how they limit your mobility
  • they needing to be set before the battle

One option could be making turrets HP depend on Heimer HP.

Dragorune2 votes

I agree with all those points. As said his turrets just die too fast lategame making them useless (also damage is low) Leashing is possible but yeah doesn't allow you to set them up in lane early Yes that's a big problem as well, due to all the issues with teamfight moving so much and the mobility of current champions And indeed it takes too long to place them and the range is too low to place them during a teamfight which indeed creates that problem.

I agree making the turrets more durable would be a very good idea.

Thanks for the comment

Mawootad2 votes

My god that wall of text. Also, Heimer is good and his 53% win rate is legit. If you actually had real knowledge of statistics you'd know that the percentage of a population sampled means almost nothing, the number of samples is everything and a 1% pick rate out of a quarter of a million games still gives a very solid 2% margin of error. Yes, Heimer could probably use a fair number of sidegrades to make him both more consistent and fun to play while being less frustrating to fight but to say he's just bad is simply wrong.

Dragorune1 votes

I never said he was flat out bad. I said that his turrets became very unreliable and that there are a lot of issues with them.

What I want is that he indeed gets some "sidegrades" he needs some changes both for playing as him and against him.

So you're saying that about 2500 games are played with Heimerdinger, right (250000/100)? Now yes at that point 53% is quite a solid number but you have to take into account the bias. Out of those 2500 games how many people were pro Heimerdinger players, how many of their opponents knew how to play against heimerdinger and have played several games against him before?

75 games going one way instead of the other way is not that much, especially taking biases into account.

I'm not saying he's bad but just because some number says he's better than average doesn't mean that he actually is. Most certainly it does not mean that he's in a good position.

thanks for the comment BTW

Nekusen2 votes

{quoted}

My god that wall of text. Also, Heimer is good and his 53% win rate is legit. If you actually had real knowledge of statistics you'd know that the percentage of a population sampled means almost nothing, the number of samples is everything and a 1% pick rate out of a quarter of a million games still gives a very solid 2% margin of error. Yes, Heimer could probably use a fair number of sidegrades to make him both more consistent and fun to play while being less frustrating to fight but to say he's just bad is simply wrong.

you know winrates mean nothing, right ? its a 5v5 game. at most you could get something from pickrates, but even then....

Nekusen2 votes

as it has been said, i think turrets should scale with hp-armor-mr, so they won't become useless lategame. either that or change the way they scale with AP, so they are not indestructible early game, and not 1 shot lategame.

Dragorune1 votes

Yes I think that's a good idea

SaltyKracka1 votes

"Buff cancer so we can all have more cancer"

how about no

Dragorune4 votes

Please don't talk about cancer that way, some people might have lost family members to it.

Apart from that I'm sorry but your comment has no actual content, so come back when you do.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Your post has no actual content.

It literally consists of "Heimer's not popular, buff Heimer".

Dragorune1 votes

I provide about 6 arguments or so, with actual information. I by example compare Azir's and Zyra's turrets with Heimerdinger's turrets.

It's sad that you repeat exactly what I said and don't understand what an argument is. Please learn what arguments are and how to conduct debate/discussion.

71389310_DEL1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with you. Anybody who is skeptical should check out Heisendong ( NA ) because that man's become surprisingly great at playing Heimer in ANY role ( even ADC ) on a challenger-rank ( Yes, he is challenger ) level. The video below is a mid-lane match-up from from today, about 9 hours ago ( from the time I constructed this post ) according to Y.T. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mn3b_Cq-EEY

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/AH1ARp4o-heimer-is-viable-in-ranked

3tyson1 votes
71389310_DEL2 votes

I admit there are harder picks for a Heimerdinger to go up against considering his proficiency against melee-based champions. I'll post some random/recent videos ( nothing over a month old ) with him in each of the game's avenues. From here people can watch on their own and form their own opinion.

Here are a few versus more traditional mages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhHNbyD66mk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JMW42k8wkU

Here are two where he is jungling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqc2jK-9kWg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw2BUMqzSOc

Here is one where he is supporting, I wasn't able to find one with him as an ADC but I know he's done Heimerdinger ADC before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMMWguBB1zE

We have some videos of him top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIuv3m8g2TI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L0elIvK4W8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7rCNg_sSQQ

And finally I'll post one last video. It is an older video in comparison to the others posted ( about three months older, sorry I lied earlier! ) but in this one he's playing against Vladimir top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtkp6OGyqoQ

Heisendong is challenger-ranked and is considered to be the best player of Heimerdinger in N.A. He said he started playing him after his friend challenged and/or dared him to play the champ.

Dragorune1 votes

Doesn't that prove the point all the more? If he's having a hard time against yasuo as an incredibly good Heimerdinger player than what does that mean once he get's a harder pick against heimerdinger?

3tyson1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't that prove the point all the more? If he's having a hard time against yasuo as an incredibly good Heimerdinger player than what does that mean once he get's a harder pick against heimerdinger?

i noticed he did an incredibly stupid start donger is supose to set up 3 turrets in lane especialy against yasuo instead of getting the early xp

if yas wants to get cs hell take a shitload of herass and your gonne dominate lane all the time i always pick donger if i see a yasuo mid...

and im far from an incredible good donger and i would put my money on most of those yasuos being much better players than i am lol

Dragorune1 votes

Two things,

It was not a stupid start because he gains the early level 2 and a level advantage, having an extra ability available is a huge advantage.

Secondly a lot of those Yasuo players might be better than you but most of them probably don't see a Heimerdinger all that often and probably don't know how to play against it either. While on the other you do know how to play against yasuo, that helps a lot.

3tyson1 votes

{quoted}

Two things,

It was not a stupid start because he gains the early level 2 and a level advantage, having an extra ability available is a huge advantage.

Secondly a lot of those Yasuo players might be better than you but most of them probably don't see a Heimerdinger all that often and probably don't know how to play against it either. While on the other you do know how to play against yasuo, that helps a lot.

Add me play yasuo il pick donger il show u what il mean tommorow

Dragorune1 votes

I don't play yasuo

3tyson1 votes

{quoted}

I don't play yasuo

You dont have to il just show you why lvl 2 on donger was a verry bad play you dont have to be a good yasu to see theres nothing u can do of you set up turrets right

Baunjo1 votes

Heimerdinger Is a gimp champion, who wins strictly by a battle of attrition from pushing the lane. I really do not feel a champion like that should have been made let alone be babysat with their balance.

Dragorune1 votes

Could you back that up with an argument

Baunjo1 votes

What part of that statement do you not understand?

Dragorune1 votes

Exactly it's a statement you make and not an argument. Just because you say something that doesn't mean it's true. Give an example, make a comparison, etc.

Baunjo1 votes

I assumed that if you made a buff heimer post you would understand how he works but thats my bad.

Heimerdinger is a champion who can place 3 minions or " turrets " on the battlefield at once and if he decides to leave these turrets he is sacraficing a great deal of power until the long cooldown of his Q allows his 3 turrets to be repositioned.

Therefore, heimerdinger is exclusively played by setting up your turrets in the lane and letting them push the enemy into turret. As a common counter to assassins who excel at roaming, he gives them a big fat middle finger just by existing because if heimerdingers opponent does decide to roam he is then given a free pass to take towers.

And with no insentive to do ANYTHING else, Heimerdinger is very much an attrition based champion. I have never once been a supporter of removing a champion from the game permanently because that is just not logical, but that is not a champion I want to see strong whatsoever.

BadmoonBC1 votes

Heimer is still an absolute monster man... Even in high elos. As long as you don't get hard countered by like a malz or azir you should rape anyone. Including Syndra and xerath they can't do enough damage to the turrets til mid game. Brand does ok after his first back tho. I hate heimer more than any other champ in the game. As a mid main he always gives me a head ache.

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