How does tenacity stack and what are the optimal amounts?

PhatCat6Pack·Sep 3, 2019·5 votes·3,479 views

On Tryndamere my hardest matchups are high cc teams, and poke champs like teemo. Normally I get merc treads, but I always forget to change from alacrity to legend tenacity, and I feel like that gimps me. Unflinching might be better than legend tenacity unless you can get both and merc treads, but when does teemo's blind hit the bare minimum of .5 seconds? How much tenacity do I actually need? I'm surprised there isn't a tenacity calc for common abilities. I want the blind to last as little of a time as possible, and nasus wither as well if anyone has the numbers on how much tenacity I need. How does tenacity stack exactly?

13 Comments

Doctor ShabbosSep 3, 20195 votes

{quoted}

On Tryndamere my hardest matchups are high cc teams, and poke champs like teemo. Normally I get merc treads, but I always forget to change from alacrity to legend tenacity, and I feel like that gimps me. Unflinching might be better than legend tenacity unless you can get both and merc treads, but when does teemo's blind hit the bare minimum of .5 seconds? How much tenacity do I actually need? I'm surprised there isn't a tenacity calc for common abilities. I want the blind to last as little of a time as possible, and nasus wither as well if anyone has the numbers on how much tenacity I need. How does tenacity stack exactly?

They stack. They all stack, but mostly only multiplicatively.

That they stack only multiplicatively for the most part, should tell you, that Riot considers Tenacity to be a broken stat.

Mercs + Sterak's are additive.

Iron + the initial %10/%20 bonus from Unflinching are additive.

Any champion can get %77 Tenacity from mercs, Legend:Tenacity, Elixer of Iron, and fully stacked Unflinching. (This will just begin to scrape the .5s Tenacity hard cap on a 2s CC.)

Without the Unflinching it's still a reliable %63. We haven't bothered to include Sterak's procs, or Cleanse.

That's %63 Tenacity from 3 sources that are pretty easy to have all together by midgame.

(Smite DOES proc Unflinching. You can maintain a fairly consistent (well, on-demand, but easy to get) %32 Tenacity without mercs, just by running Unflinching and Smite.)

The %10/%20 component of Unflinching does stack additively with Elixer of Iron. One advantage of Unflinching is that you have full use of it lvl 1. Legend Tenacity probably takes about 12m to fully stack.

Nasus wither is 5s. (The longest CC in the game.) (You can see your Tenacity stat in game when you look at your full stats with C. When you have mercs, it says %30. Buy Iron, and it goes up to %48. Mercs + Legend = %51.) So you can get Wither down to 2.5s pretty easily and with all three, almost to 1s. If it's only slows that you're worried about, then Slow Resistance is better. If Teemo is your only concern, probably get the Swifties and some other MR.

Unflinching ALSO give %15 Slow Resistance. All Slow Resistance stacks additively.

Teemo blind scales with ability points from 1.5s to 2.5s. It's not the kind of thing that I think about buying Tenacity for. (Swifties would also just help you dodge Teemo darts. Much better not to get hit at all, right?)

If you ever do get CC down to .5s you hardly notice it...

If you REALLY want to max your Tenacity, then you need to bring Cleanse. Then you get %65 Tenacity for 3s on a 3.5m CD. (And if you also took Unflinching, then keep some extra Tenacity for that whole time.) Cleanse stacks multiplicative with the other forms of Tenacity. Stacked with the other three, you would have %87 Tenacity for those three seconds.

...

CLEANSE - THE RAREST SUMMONER'S SPELL CHOICE (adapted from SpikeThePike)

Cleanse deals with hard CC (and gives 3 seconds of tenacity to help against chained CC). It can be viable against specific opponents with a lot of hard, long duration CC, opponents like Ryze, Veigar, Lux, Zyra, Zoe, Ivern, Irelia, Jax, Elise, Sejuani, Morgana, even Lissandra. It is more powerful than it seems, because when you are hit by hard CC you cannot use Flash but you can still use Cleanse.

It partly depends how skilled (and awake!) you are - if you are good you can probably dodge most skillshots without needing this. But some of these opponents, for example Ryze and Irelia, are undodgeable. It can be used to bait an opponent like Jax or Irelia, as they will not expect you to break from their stun!

Having said all this, you should be buying a Quicksilver Sash in a game like this. This item does the same job as the Cleanse summoner but on a much shorter cooldown so you can use it more. And it builds into Mercurial Scimitar which is a reasonably good 6th item for Tryndamere anyhow. OK, QSS has a gold cost, but maybe one of the other summoner's spells like Flash or Ignite can earn you gold by giving you an early kill...

...

PhatCat6PackSep 3, 20191 votes

Very good advice, that is exactly what I wanted to know. Definitely running unflinching secondary in the jungle from now on. I also feel derpy for never thinking to build qss against teemo. Sometimes I even get a solo kill on him, and have plenty of early gold, but just go straight for Essence Reaver which is selfish, I know lol. So perhaps the best build against a teemo is secondary unflinching, with legend tenacity, and maby fleet footwork, with boots of speed to resist his slow even more. The shrooms are the real killers when he kites you backwards. If I can stick on top of him he is finished which is why I take ghost a lot, and just run him down lane, when he overextends.

I also figured out keeping two pinks on yourself, and dropping them is really good for gaining lane control in very important areas. Normally I put it in tri bush, or right down on the bush below lane so I can clear out any shrooms he tries to stack, making my jungler ganks far more successful.

If Teemo tries to clear the wards I just run him down and kill him unless I don't know where his jungler is, but seeing his jungler bot lane just makes things so easy for me. Mid is still kind of a gamble since most take mobi boots and can get top lane quicker than I can kill a Teemo.

I've also been playing around with the idea of Nashor's Tooth first item against Teemo. It really helps with q healing from Teemo harrass, and allows you to take poke after poke, and still stay in lane. Nashor's Tooth into Essence Reaver also gives me 40% cdr for lower spin cooldown, and the ap adds more damage to Tryndamere's spin as well as his q healing.

Doctor ShabbosSep 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Very good advice, that is exactly what I wanted to know. Definitely running unflinching secondary in the jungle from now on. I also feel derpy for never thinking to build qss against teemo. Sometimes I even get a solo kill on him, and have plenty of early gold, but just go straight for Essence Reaver which is selfish, I know lol. So perhaps the best build against a teemo is secondary unflinching, with legend tenacity, and maby fleet footwork, with boots of speed to resist his slow even more. The shrooms are the real killers when he kites you backwards. If I can stick on top of him he is finished which is why I take ghost a lot and just run him down lane.

QSS is overkill against Teemo. IF the stats from the finished item are useful for your match, and IF the team also includes hard CC, then I suppose that you might make the QSS early, since it could help in lane. But, don't get a QSS just for Teemo.

For JUST Teemo, Swifties and probably Hexdrinker. You might even sell the Hexdrinker late game. Maw probably isn't quite so suitable for Tryndamere as Mercurial.

I think most people suffer from Teemo Magic Damage, his CC isn't really that strong. Just annoying. And he tends to fall off late game.

Witt's End is probably another possibility for Tryndamere in that matchup. ... Yeah... Laning vs Teemo rush completed boots and Witt's End. Pick up a Tiamat somewhere in there. Then go on to Zeal item... ("Korean Challenger Build")

Doctor ShabbosSep 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Very good advice, that is exactly what I wanted to know. Definitely running unflinching secondary in the jungle from now on. I also feel derpy for never thinking to build qss against teemo. Sometimes I even get a solo kill on him, and have plenty of early gold, but just go straight for Essence Reaver which is selfish, I know lol. So perhaps the best build against a teemo is secondary unflinching, with legend tenacity, and maby fleet footwork, with boots of speed to resist his slow even more. The shrooms are the real killers when he kites you backwards. If I can stick on top of him he is finished which is why I take ghost a lot, and just run him down lane, when he overextends.

I also figured out keeping two pinks on yourself, and dropping them is really good for gaining lane control in very important areas. Normally I put it in tri bush, or right down on the bush below lane so I can clear out any shrooms he tries to stack, making my jungler ganks far more successful.

If Teemo tries to clear the wards I just run him down and kill him unless I don't know where his jungler is, but seeing his jungler bot lane just makes things so easy for me. Mid is still kind of a gamble since most take mobi boots and can get top lane quicker than I can kill a Teemo.

I've also been playing around with the idea of Nashor's Tooth first item against Teemo. It really helps with q healing from Teemo harrass, and allows you to take poke after poke, and still stay in lane. Nashor's Tooth into Essence Reaver also gives me 40% cdr for lower spin cooldown, and the ap adds more damage to Tryndamere's spin as well as his q healing.

Nothing worth buying is just gonna let you chase him through his shrooms. Just avoid them, like you said. Oracle also works. See my suggestion for Witt's End, it's probably better than Nashor's for this.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 3, 20191 votes

Tenacity stacks multiplicatively, so that each reduction is an equal ratio.

If you have 10% tenacity and a new source gives another 10%, the second source reduces CC by 10% of 90%, or 9%, for a total of 19% reduction.

Doctor ShabbosSep 3, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Tenacity stacks manipulatively, so that each reduction is an equal ratio.

Freudian slip there...

If you have 10% tenacity and a new source gives another 10%, the second source reduces CC by 10% of 90%, or 9%, for a total of 19% reduction.

Most Tenacity stacks multiplicatively. There are a couple of exceptions...

DuskDaUmbreonSep 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Shabbos,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zUEGztef,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-09-03T07:11:47.440+0000)

Freudian slip there...

Whoops, nope, autocorrupt. Fixing that now.

Most Tenacity stacks multiplicatively. There are a couple of exceptions...

The only real exception is when the value of the source itself is increasing, such as when you gain stacks with the Legend: Tenacity rune. Technically that'd be additive increase, but that's just because you're making one source better.

MrFawknSunshineSep 3, 20191 votes

the most tenacity you could have by taking legend tenacity and mercs is 51%

XavanicSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

the most tenacity you could have by taking legend tenacity and mercs is 51%

But you also have the tank potion and sterak's

MrFawknSunshineSep 3, 20191 votes

but those are conditional.

you have to buy and consume the potion and then be in a situation that steraks passive is triggered .

the most static tenacity you can have is 51%

Lrrr OmicronianSep 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

but those are conditional.

you have to buy and consume the potion and then be in a situation that steraks passive is triggered .

the most static tenacity you can have is 51%

I wouldn't consider Iron conditional. It's consistent... for 3 minutes.

Unflinching is more conditional, but you do have control over it.

Cleanse isn't conditional either, for that matter. I don't need to have Tenacity all game long for it to be useful. Just when hit with CC.

Steraks is conditional and kind of wonky to proc. It's designed so that you probably will have it when you need it most. Perhaps BECAUSE it's out of the user's control, it stacks additively with mercs. I'm not comfortable including it in a practical Tenacity stat calculation. Besides, not every champion can build Steraks, and even among all melee champions it's an item that many won't consider.

Anybody can buy mercs. Anybody can chug Iron. Anybody can blow their summs.

PhatCat6PackSep 3, 20191 votes

What about taking unflinching in the resolve tree? It gives slow resistance as well when sums are on cooldown.