Zyra's Midlane problem

TheDangerousTaco·6/3/2019, 2:07:30 AM·12 votes·8,612 views

Let me first start off by saying this. Zyra is not a "support" she is a "MAGE" and as far as that goes, she can go in any lane that players want to play her in. What I want to focus on is the reason why she doesn't go midlane anymore.

Every since zyra's nerf to her passive long long ago (The old passive that allowed you to spit thorns on people after you died) People haven't really tried to play zyra mid. Recently I've been trying to bring it back, but I found a couple of problems that prevent me from making her a significant midlaner.


                                                           Issue 1. = Her passive

Her passive "Garden of Thorns" "Rampant growth" periodically spawns a seed that can be turned into a plant after using an ability on it. these seeds last 30 secs and dies when an ally steps on it.

                                                                     The problem 

Because you have 0 control over when and where the plants spawn, you are pretty much relying on rng on being in your favor. In a game like league of legends, macro is king. And being in the wrong place at the wrong time can kill you. Unlike the real rampant growth ( W ), your opponent can get a heads up on where you might spawn your plants. A smart enemy can purposefully position themselves out of the way, or even step on it when your shoved in, preventing you from making full use of your passive. In a support lane when your opponent is less worried about and more focused on melting your adc, you can get away with it. But for a mage, this ability is pretty underwhelming in all other matchups. The setup you need to make this work, is unbearable, especially in a matchup that might not go your way.


                                              Issue 2. = Plants cant be controlled.

Zyra has 2 ways for her plants to attack. Either they attack the last target zyra is hitting. Or they attack a champion that is continuously in range, if zyra managed to land a hit on them.

                                                                    the problem

This might seem like the biggest no brainer, but let me elaborate on why this is such a important feature to have on zyra. Most pets in game can be controlled by hitting Ctrl. For some reason zyra doesn't have this mechanic built in. Meaning if you want to hit a champion with your plants, you will have to either walk into auto attack range and start attacking them, or hit them with an ability. Now the later isn't so bad, but lets talk about the first one for a bit. A mages auto attack range is laughable when compare it to there abilities. Zyra's range is 575. Her Q range is 800. Meaning if you want to hit someone with your plants, you would have to Q for almost 50%+ your range, walk up close to cover the distance, and then proceed to hit them in order for the plants to start attacking. Now if you play zyra, you will also know that her movement isn't great. So if you happen to miss even one of your abilities, your opponent can easily walk away from your plants, without taking any damage from the 1-2 that happened to spawn, and walk back 3secs later without trouble. Now if your facing a melee champ in midlane, there is 0% chance in hell you would want to walk up to them in melee range just to activate a bonus 20 damage per plant. This along with the awkward positioning of your plants makes it almost impossible of effectively using your plants in lane Unless your really fed. Missing one ability makes your plants useless, and even when they hit, they die too fast.


                                                      Issue 3. = the damage

Zyra's scaling is average for a mage, but her base damage, if you can account for all the plants she can spawn, can = 100 damage per plant, up to a maxium of 8.

                                                               The problem

Now you are probably confused, as to why I am complaining about her damage being to high, if she is supposed to be a midlane mage. Well that's just the thing, her damage is high "OVERTIME" but for burst, it is actually on the weaker side of things. One of the major things I struggle with in the midlane is getting kills. My recent match on her showcase's this problem perfectly https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3057603505/224885685?tab=stats During the game, I am able to do a significant amount of damage to my opponents, but I am never able to secure the kills until after I die. My plants do a lot of damage, but not enough when it matters. By the end of the game, my ashe has 13/5/9. with the least amount of damage on the team, cause I died everytime in a teamfight, but always did the most damage. It felt like I was playing a support in the midlane, rather than playing a mage. If my team wasn't there to clean up for me, I would of been useless, even though I had the most pressure in the fights. This also becomes increasingly frustrating when it comes to balancing, as it feels like a lot of skill expression is being punished just because she has high base damage on her plants. As I said before, alot of the game comes down to macro, and dying before your opponent, just because you couldnt get that extra plant hit off, can cost you alot of pressure in the late game. I don't mind her plants doing a good chunk of the work for her, but I rather that damage be more noticeable in fights while I'm still alive, not after the game is over and I check the scoreboard.


                                                               Solution

For one. I think a lot of zyra's midlane struggles come from the fact that her plants are unreliable. but I think being able to control them with solve a lot of these issues.

If her plants being controlled gives her too much power, you can simply give her 10% more scaling, bringing it up to 30%, and gut her base damage. I would argue that allowing good zyra players to express themselves by manipulating her own plants, will more than make up for her plants having a flat 20 damage rate with 30% ap scaling.

I know this sounds like a half assed solution, but if you have any better ideas on what can be added to make zyra a better midlaner, please share below. After all this is a dicussion

39 Comments

nm10106/3/2019, 12:10:20 PM8 votes

Making her a mid laner with a small kit change is pretty easy and doesn't involve trying to mess with base damage vs scaling on her plants (which is a balancing nightmare).

New passive -> Zyra gains 10%/25%/50% additional cooldown reduction on rampant growth at levels 6/11/16. In addition to this she can also store 1 more seed at level 6/11/16.

W -> Seeds can only be placed within 200 units of an enemy (including jungle camps) or Zyra herself. Only up to 2 seeds can be placed within 200 units of each other. Plants that kill a unit refund 1/2/3/4/5 mana.

She has much more control over trading and her waveclear post 6, which are both important mid lane. She is also a huge threat for neutral objectives (this might need to be nerfed). She scales well and has an added layer of skill needed with positioning seeds correctly.

Edit: Forgot, no more limit to the amount of seeds on the ground. The only limiting factor is the spacing and the 60 second timer.

Padoµch6/3/2019, 11:48:08 AM3 votes

I think that what you say is true. Take down her base dmg, improve scaling. The one thing that she never got back up from was the Rune + item change. We had to pick +15 magic pene runes for her, some magic pene masteries and go full magic pene build, she was good in the moment of having like 45 MP. They just accepted her as a burst support, and I know they are not listening to Zyra mid mains.. yea...

Illabethe6/3/2019, 2:50:28 AM2 votes

Stop posting arguments about Zyra which are ill-informed:

  1. Plants Can somewhat be controlled. There's a list of about 10 different protocols they follow on spawning as priorities on the Zyra Wiki, and they are generally true.

They can be used to: -Funnel fights into small areas. -Control Drake/Herald Basins. -Will generally spawn in favorable positions for farming waves.

And, her passive is working as designed: You aren't supposed to have full control of up to 8 plants. 2 is enough in addition to her base damage to kill someone. Plants are just bonus.

And, you can always arrive somewhere early, and set up a seed field.

  1. She can secure kills fine. You just run the wrong runes, the wrong set of items, and fail to build CDR in.

Zyra can build ANY mage build. Just because the "Meta" is the DoT build, doesn't mean it's the RIGHT build, especially for every situation.

  1. I don't know what game you are playing if you think Zyra is slow. I get up to 526 Move speed. I don't know about you. And that's before active items....
Glaricion6/3/2019, 7:11:31 AM2 votes

Did they ever give a reason as to why they removed her martyrdom passive? Riot loves unique things, and although Kog and Karthus have rather similar passives, they all played so differently.

Why remove such a fun, unique, expressive, and counter playable passive in exchange for more seeds dropping? IIRC, wasn't that previously the passive effect on her W?

SanKakU6/3/2019, 5:36:07 PM1 votes

What you describe as Zyra's problem is why as much as I like her I can't bring myself to stop using a certain Resolve keystone on her. Comet, Electrocute, and others are great. But nothing beats Undying Grasp for her in my book.

Troll Slaiyer6/3/2019, 6:12:25 PM1 votes

what ever problems she has, she needs them to stay more balanced than broken.

HP Crookshanks6/3/2019, 9:42:16 PM1 votes

You forgot the biggest problems Talon Yasuo Zed item 3155 item 3111

ShadzMadz6/3/2019, 11:49:04 PM1 votes

until riot stops shoving a forced "we like this here, don't like this there" meta shit, we're not seeing her mid anymore then we're seeing mages bot carry, This is not me saying its impossible I do it myself but riot isn't gonna cater to it.

Mr Dalloway6/4/2019, 1:23:07 AM1 votes

Honestly Zyra's old passive really was garbage. I'm not a fan of "improved death" passives on a whole. But at least champs like Sion, Karthus, and Kog'maw can really make use of theirs and get some kills or do some damage. Zyra's was pitiful and easy to avoid.

Mr Dalloway6/4/2019, 2:41:50 AM1 votes

That's funny. I always found it to be underwhelming. At any rate as a former raiding priest in WoW it always reminded me of the healing death angel holy priests could spec into so they could keep healing after death which felt so underwhelming to many that they named it improved death.

Nhika6/3/2019, 2:08:46 AM1 votes

She's still pretty slow as a mid laner though. It's why Malz on paper is strong, but in actual team fights he's god awful.

Krys Star6/4/2019, 6:25:58 AM1 votes

Riot's already determined and settled with the decision that she's a mage. :\

Meteora7076/3/2019, 3:02:30 PM1 votes

the problem with zyra is that if she hits her shit, she will kill you, if she doesn't she wont do shit, now why would you want to give someone solo xp and gold when the end result will be the same? brand and zyra both have too much power in their passive making em both very combo oriented or "all or nothing" type champions, gut her plants and remove the ults effect on plants and give her actual scalings and she will start going mid again.

Paletongue6/3/2019, 3:38:44 PM1 votes

Hi! I play a lot of Zyra (I prefer her mid) and I 100% can feel with what you've noted.

I did want to say that I don't mind her plant's targeting rules. I think they way the plants are set up adds a healthy amount of risk to an otherwise very safe champion.

In lane, I do often walk into AA range just to get that extra damage off. In lane its not too bad cause you can do it instantly with a Q/W-E-aa combo when they go to farm a minion. Late game, I don't need to use the auto attack anymore because a lot of fights aren't picked inside minion waves, and I have allies close by to follow up and finish the job.

Speaking of which, I absolutely feel that it is hard to finish enemies (barring surprise catching them while I camp in a bush). I just try and remember that they have to recall now, which means thats more experience and minions for me. I don't know how to fix that without breaking her 1 shot combo potential, which she still often has.

Linna Excel6/3/2019, 3:42:25 PM1 votes

{quoted}

but if you have any better ideas on what can be added to make zyra a better midlaner, please share below. After all this is a dicussion

I think she'd have to have a mid play rate high enough for riot to notice she's a mid again. That means her mains need to take her there when they get mid and queue up for mid more than support. If's she's not being played mid, I doubt she's even on riot's radar as one.