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Would melee mages benefit from AP versions of the AD items?

TonyTonyMordecai·11/5/2019, 10:59:21 PM·16 votes·10,250 views

Such as having an AP hydra or an AP Black Cleaver? (Or maybe variants for those who don't require mana)

I'm just throwing it out there, with how some Battlemages don't have mana resource bars but rely on building tanky to survive, but don't have many options outside Liandry's and Morello and Protobelt, but even then, they lose out on the tools that most Juggernauts have since most of these items were meant for those who scaled off AD, and also primarily used their basic attacks in tandem with their spells.

Also with the inclusion of Sylas and Mordekaiser, most of the AP items are built around the user having range and mana (where Morde and Rumble and Vlad do not), and there aren't a lot of options for some of them. (might also add in AP (melee and ranged) assassins as the options available are the same as normal mages)

Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way, but I'd love to hear from someone who plays these kinds of champs more often and knows more about this than me!

56 Comments

boricCentaur111/6/2019, 12:16:45 AM12 votes

A ap black cleaver would be the most broken item ever put into league unless riot just nerfs 60% of mages before putting it him.

Adcs already get black cleaver nerfed and all ap melee champions are ability based and have WAY more dot abilities then ad.

Like arhi is a burst mage and think of her combo then think how many procs of black cleaver it would proc. Like w into r into e into q is almost full stacks and she still has two rs left. Sol would be so bs.

Fizz and kass would also make great use out of it, basically any ap champions would. Like fizz autos a good number of times

I say put ap black cleaver just have a mordekaiser slow you down while you lose mr.

Anime Fizz11/6/2019, 3:01:39 AM5 votes

Do you want ppl to never ever again play an AD bruiser?

AP items are already broken as hell, if there was an AP black cleaver then you'd literally have 4~5 mage/ap champs per team, mr already doesnt exist as a stat (only 30 base vs like 70+ armor + trash items) and you want that shit LOL.

xelaker11/6/2019, 1:12:23 AM4 votes

We need less versions of half the busted items in the game.

Josh Sand11/6/2019, 1:13:29 AM3 votes

I think its kinda BS that Bruisers get the perfect item for their class, while most other classes dont have an equivalent.

What we need, is for Riot to add a couple of class-specific items to the shop. It would be easy to create AP items for Battle Mages and Control Mages, without worrying about it getting abused by AP Assassins.

The item system needs a complete overhaul honestly. I would rather they just add more build path options, than messing around with the busted ass runes reforged.

The Stripy Bag11/6/2019, 2:31:03 AM2 votes

[New Effect] "Basic attacks or spells that deal damage to an enemy champion grant 2 stacks of Conqueror for 8s, gaining ?X? Attack Damage per stack. Stacks up to 10 times. Ranged champions gain only 1 stack per basic attack. When fully stacked, heal for 15% of the damage you deal to champions."

This is the new version on the PBE as of 11/5 per Surrender@20. http://www.surrenderat20.net/2019/11/115-pbe-update-pulsefire-thresh.html#more

I do play these champions and I did like the idea of the heal as not all AP champions would want to get Hextech Gunblade,which is the only AP item that has a Spellvamp effect anymore, and could maybe use the new Conqueror but the fact that it's only AD now hurts the odds of that happening. Sylas,Mordekaiser,and Ryze who I could have seen using it the most lack AD ratios and therefore don't benefit as much from it as say Garen or Illaoi would since they get all the benefit for it.

The Stripy Bag11/6/2019, 2:03:29 AM2 votes

Riot said in either a recent Ask Riot or Reddit posting that they wouldn't be doing Ap Bruiser items any time soon. This actually makes me a bit disappointed as I feel like champions like Mordekaiser,Sylas,Galio, and other shorter ranged Ap champions are harder to balance because they lack these sorts of items. It makes it so that either they have to have damage ratios that are too high to really work or else they don't do enough damage to justify them being shorter range. Yes they have Liandry's and Rylais but some of them don't have the CC or low cd abilities to really make us of one or the other. I mean most Viktor players loved that they got rid of Viktor's need to build Rylai's by giving him a Slow on his W augment because it opened up an item slot. Sorry got off track with Viktor but I feel like they could make Ap Bruiser items work if they put a long ranged vs shorter ranged factor into how the item worked. What makes this even worse is in the most recent PBE patch Conqueror is going to be straight AD instead of Adaptive so some of these champions are also losing their main rune.

ACatIsFineToo11/6/2019, 2:12:04 AM2 votes

That's called Lichbane. Its an item specifically for battlemages. It comes with a little bit of mana, but thats only so some mages actually have the mana to cast abilities. (Imagine buying a sheen for a battlemage but not having the mana to cast more than 4 abilities)

I do think items in this game should be looked at, and RIOT should fill a few of those holes. Add another ad/armor item etc.

The King Diamond11/6/2019, 7:56:04 AM2 votes

There are no melee mages. That are just ap assasins that are fking ridiculous. Or ap brusiers, that are less effective than them. AP itemization is strong already. U better ask for MR items buff, cuz it's terrible

DarkTree111/6/2019, 9:29:46 AM1 votes

please do not give mages 33+65% magic pen with an AP cleaver

(aside from that it is usually difficult to balance/add true "AP bruiser" items without just making regular mages' core have higher tankiness. current AP bruiser itemization is already good because mage itemization in general just has a lot of good things in it and mage core comes with utility/tank stats)

LightswornLance11/6/2019, 1:34:34 PM1 votes

Yes, We need an AP steraks gage. Same / similar life line passive based on bonus health, aswell as a passive that converts bonus health into AP, with the same named passive as deathcap. It would need to be a really good conversion rate, so that it competes with deathcap. Currently the main AP bruiser problem is that you lose alot of build efficiency if you don't go deathcap and pure damage. They need an alternative and an AP item with this passive would be it.

Terchio11/6/2019, 7:30:56 PM1 votes

I don't really get why, but the AP versions of those items always get watered down, then sunk. I think the closest thing to AP BC would be old item 3091 , or maybe even simply item 3135 , which for whatever reason never seemed UP despite BC holding a crap-ton of stats. AP Hydra would basically be the old Will of the Ancients, or even item 3146 , considering the active. In either case, neither turned out to last healthily because AP champs being burst first and foremost keeps this from being possible. I kinda wish there was an URF-like item (though I do hate the URF mode in general) which reduced cooldowns to URF level, reduced CC durations, and reduced spell damages, but allowed more fringe uses for certain things in game, such as item 3285 and the Arcane Comet Keystone, and made any mage feel more like a battlemage, especially with the possibility of more consistent sustain from Spell Vamp. However, the burst-centric mage builds make anything over like 10% Vamp feel like a full heal on every combo, and sustained damage strats only ever work when absurdly tanky with Liandry's to whittle enemies down.