Buff tenacity

Harrowïng·11/14/2019, 5:32:33 AM·44 votes·13,174 views

Could we? The only way the stat is any bit useful is buying Merc Treads and Sterak's while taking the Tenacity rune. And that adds up to around 81% tenacity but in return that just makes it so that you can take one more cc than normal before you die. The overall damage in the game is so ridiculously high that a single cc is enough time to kill that target. Add in champs with multiple cc, which is close to everyone, and tenacity is just outright garbage. Please buff it so there isn't games that revolve around one team not being able to fucking play or add diminishing returns on cc in general. Even in pro play this is apparently. Too many times has a player WITH merc treads just outright lose to a champ that kept them locked down.

36 Comments

Xavanic11/14/2019, 8:26:59 AM27 votes

problem is tenacity is actually a lot more useless then people realize, yes it reduces the duration of stuns but only to 0.5 seconds, you cannot reduce a stun below this duration, another thing making this useless, is just how many displacement based stuns are actually in the game (knock ups/ knock backs, etc.) because so many stuns are considered a displacement rather then an actual stun (im gonna say around...20-30% of stuns are actually considered a displacement, some examples are as follows Quinn E/ Q/ Draven E/ Rammus Q/ Sejuani Q/ Sylas E/, there are more but these are the ones off the top of my head, they say stun but in fact are displacements, meaning tenacity doesn't affect their duration) i feel tenacity is a very overvalued stat imo, could be wrong, but its my opinion, (i still take the rune on bruisers and such though since it does help with roots aswell)

BLIGHTBRINGER11/14/2019, 1:48:58 PM6 votes

Tenacity either needs a buff to make it worth while investing into.

Or it needs to impact every single CC type.

7thHeaven11/14/2019, 6:49:18 AM5 votes

Stop buying x6 damage items on every champs, buy tank items instead

ImTheJuggernauty11/14/2019, 2:57:15 PM5 votes

Xavanic makes some good points, and I'll admit, I don't know stuns weren't reduceable below .5 seconds. But I'll even add to his argument, which is that it's nearly impossible to get 81% tenacity, and you certainly can't do it with the items and runes you mentioned. Why is that? Because most tenacity is multiplicative, not additive, sadly. I've pasted a copy of what someone else posted in 2016 about how it works below.

So basically, if the average non-garen tank or juggernaut were to try to maximize tenacity through runes and items, the max percent reduceable CC you can reach is approx. 26% on a 2 second CC. Less that 2 seconds, you the start reaching the "can't go below .5 seconds cc" problem. The sources for getting max tenacity at late game are as follows: Merc treads (30%), steraks (30% for 8 seconds), legend: tenacity (30%), elixir of iron (25%) for a total of 115% if you were to stack them addivitely. But since they are mostly multiplicative, the calculation for a 2 second stun is 2*((1-.03)(1-0.3)(1-0.3)*(1-0.25)) = .51.

Then, .51/2 = .26, or in other words, the total tenacity reduces CC only down to 26%, rather than capping out at 100%. Then of course, if you do the math for a 1.75 second stun, the efficiency would be even less since it can't be reduced below .5 seconds.

I don't know how this applies to cc that starts at .5 seconds or less though.

At anyrate, it's pretty easy to see that, along with other limitations, stacking tenacity is pretty garbage, maybe even more garbage than stacking armor pass 200. So it's just better to get only one form of tenacity, two at max, and then try get items or runes with more useful stats. So if you plan on merc and steraks, try to avoid a tenacity rune, as it will be wasted.

 EndlessSorcerer    (NA)

3 years ago

They are applied multiplicatively (not additively).

For example, suppose you had Mercury Treads (30%), Elixir of Iron (25%) and Tenacious (15%) and were hit by a 2s stun.

2s * (1 - 0.30) * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.15) => 1.4s * (1 - 0.25) * (1 - 0.15) => 1.05s * (1 - 0.15) => 0.8925s

The stun would effectively only last 0.8925 seconds (45% of its initial duration).

nooperton11/14/2019, 4:09:26 PM4 votes

One of my biggest problems is point and click CC... it's one of the most annoying things to get point and clicked cc'd by someone like Malzahar or Fiddlesticks and then qss'ing just to get chain cc'd because of the half a second where I couldnt move. It takes absolutely no skill to take one carry completely out of a teamfight with malz or fiddle.

MrHonos11/14/2019, 4:32:38 PM3 votes

As a mage main, i dont agree to you. Tenacity buff makes mages useless. Can you think an assassin with %90 tenacity? Or any bruiser. Just run it down to you and you cant stop him (or her). May you can try to get some defensive items instead takin full aggresive items XD (Sorry for my bad grammar)

ACatIsFineToo11/14/2019, 3:30:11 PM3 votes

There needs to be less damage and less CC in the game. A lot of CC needs to be nerfed down to 1 second. Or 1.5 for ultimates and such.

Displacments and knockups need to be effected by Tenacity.

Rıots Bad Client11/14/2019, 11:59:05 PM2 votes

please dont. This will just mean, the champions that are mobile and the champions who are toxic and the only counterplay to them is "Just cc them" will... become more supreme. As Cc... is supposed to counter Mobility... though its not doing a very good job. However. CC is pretty dumb. I suggest CC stacking be nerfed. my Suggtion

For examples 5 morgana's for simplicity. Max Rank Q does 3 Second Snare.

The First morgana Will Snare for 3 seconds, The second one will only snare for 2.25, the third morg snare will be 1.5... or something along the lines. maybe the 5th morg will do a 0.5 snare.(since the Cc cap?)

HOWEVER... IF the first morgana Uses ULT on the same target after all the other morg's snared. SHE will get priority, and her stun will not be impaired by the cc stack nerf. Stunning for the full 1.5 seconds.

NOW. We can now nerf tenacity in some capacity. But the number increases by 0.25sec. So instead the second morg will now snare for 2.0(Instead of 2.25) then the 3rd would snare for 1.0 (Instead of 1.5)

This way if your champion relies on their cc like Gnar, or Leona to initiate fights, Wont become nerfed because of this. However. IT will nerf champions, who have difficult CC to land, Things like Ekko Stun, jhins Snare. Might see nerfs to thier cc. Allowing you to play.

1v1 Scenerios (this is a Buff CC) Team Fights (this is a Nerf To CC)

ChaosReyn11/15/2019, 12:46:42 AM2 votes

The biggest issue really doesnt have anything to do with tenacity. Honestly, tenacity is fine.

The biggest issue is "EVERYTHING must either 1 shot you, lock you down for 3.5 minutes THROUGH the tenacity, or God Forbid Maybe BOTH"

Now...this will be an unpopular opinion, but I want to give credit where it's due: I do applaud the creativity of CertainlyT...but he needs to spread about 70% of these overloaded kit pieces across some other champions or something, cause that's pretty much a huge root cause of why several stats, including tenacity, as well as several CHAMPIONS are utterly worthless by comparison.

Starcraft243ver11/14/2019, 4:20:36 PM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akashic Torment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=z86aFIER,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-14T05:32:33.123+0000)

Could we? The only way the stat is any bit useful is buying Merc Treads and Sterak's while taking the Tenacity rune. And that adds up to around 81% tenacity but in return that just makes it so that you can take one more cc than normal before you die. The overall damage in the game is so ridiculously high that a single cc is enough time to kill that target. Add in champs with multiple cc, which is close to everyone, and tenacity is just outright garbage. Please buff it so there isn't games that revolve around one team not being able to fucking play or add diminishing returns on cc in general. Even in pro play this is apparently. Too many times has a player WITH merc treads just outright lose to a champ that kept them locked down.

You do not buy tenacity on assassins or adc anyway, you buy it on bruiser and juggernauts which have no problem surviving longer in fights.

Voltago11/15/2019, 4:48:00 PM1 votes

champs just deal to much dmg so CC reduction doesn't matter that much if u get hard focused

Sageace11/16/2019, 12:14:21 AM1 votes

The MAIN problem with Tenacity is that it does not involve this Crowd Control - DISPLACEMENT.

This CC is not reduced in any form or way. It's basically almost as good as Suppression, if not an alternative Suppression. And with many more champions with this capability, it's just wrong.

Pycaso Deetus11/17/2019, 5:53:37 AM1 votes

Knock up's baby. Knock up's are unaffected by tenacity. And we got a lot champions who can knock you around. Aatrox Alistar Anivia AurelionSol Azir Blitzcrank Braum Camille Chogath Darius Diana Draven Fizz Galio Gnar Gragas Hecarim JarvanIV Kalista Kayn Kled LeeSin Lulu Malphite Maokai Nami Nautilus Nunu Orianna Ornn Poppy Qiyana Quinn Rakan Rammus RekSai Riven Sejuani Shyvana Singed Sion Swain Syndra Taliyah Thresh Tristana Trundle Urgot Vayne Velkoz Volibear MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zac Ziggs Many ey?

Bjørnetjenesten11/14/2019, 8:44:02 PM1 votes

Imagine a tank/juggernaut item with this active:

**Juggernaut: Slow yourself by xx% but become immune to knockups for yy seconds. **

Would make the game fucking bearable vs shit like: Janna red Kayn Sion Alistar Blitzcrank Yasuo

Charmy Bird11/14/2019, 11:43:46 PM1 votes

Exactly what u said. Damage is too high for cc to be this high too

Rıots Bad Client11/15/2019, 12:01:22 AM1 votes

How about some boots changes

item 1001 + item 1006 +

Give bonus regen. Give less movement speed than the rest but.

Knock ups are half the duration.

Terchio11/15/2019, 2:40:50 AM1 votes

Honestly, CC isn't meant to be countered so easily. I hate it, but think of it like Ninja Tabi. If it were a shut-down type power, it'd shut down team comps like Yas/Tryn/Yi/ADC with no room for gameplay error, simply win. Now, there are physical damage champs that bypass Tabi's passive heavily, such as Zed/Panth/Talon/etc., but the effectiveness potential is there.

If those items got enough power to actually shut down those comps, it'd make enough reason to buff those champions to compensate, which is arguably where we got with Grievous Wounds, and why it's been contemplated as a removed mechanic many times before. Without GW on an enemy, some champions can appear immortal, like the occasional Warwick/Soraka(well, her ally), Vladimir, Akali, or any lifesteal build champion with BT/RH/DD, or even BotRK.

Ahris11/15/2019, 5:39:10 AM1 votes

Tenacity shouldnt exist. Why should you be not punished by getting hit by cc?

Mages for example, will get bursted and killed by tanks if cc had no effect on them, no counterplay of kiting can exist. Basically olaf ulti running to you.

The stats have to be very much lowered if you take tenacity then, but if that happens yall will complain that it is too weak to build.

NuubmasterLXIX11/15/2019, 5:47:43 AM1 votes

Buffing Tenacity would make fierce tank champs like Mundo into literal gods. I can recall one specific game where my team had to actually 5v1 Mundo and the abuse he can take is just obscene. If our ability to lock champs down for a few seconds is gone, like CC'ing a fed Nasus, then those champs can easily hyper-carry.

Diopsideˆ11/15/2019, 7:57:08 AM1 votes

You can't have more than 50% tenacity, it would be broken afterwards.

FSRER11/15/2019, 10:54:29 AM1 votes

No. No more buffs. People don't understand that buffing got us in the mess we are in right now. Instead of just buffing tenacity how about we reduce the overpowered stun lock abilities like Morgana Q or Thresh spam Q? Isn't that a option?

Silent Reaper11/15/2019, 3:51:58 PM1 votes

Unpopular opinion: CC and tenacity in this game are fine, it's just the damage meta is so abusable that people die within the 1 second stun time making every form of CC...OP