Karma vs Kalista

Masuhara·Nov 5, 2014·5 votes·1,839 views

Scarizard:

The effectiveness of Karma's abilities relied too heavily on your teammates knowing all their nuances. No matter how hard you were carrying with Karma, your teammates had to be just as good with her for you to be super effective. When an ally's confused about whether or not he should run from or pass through your Spirit Bond, we probably made a mistake.

Kalista:

Kalista’s potential is unlocked by solid communication and cooperation with allies rather than raw mechanical skill. While Kalista decides when to answer Fate’s Call, her Soul-Bound, often a support, ultimately decides where it’ll make its impact.

CertainlyT:

But League is a team game. Kalista is for players who enjoy or want to improve at taking the pulse of teammates and working together toward a win. Kalista highlights the cooperative end-state in which she and her ally are most likely to succeed and offers a tool kit to enable players to reach that state.

Contradiction? So one of the reasons for the Karma rework was because she was team reliant on allies in regards to her abilities. Now we see a new champion in the works with a kit mainly focused on this very "problem". I would be interested in seeing a riot response to this contradiction.

9 Comments

DrNovaNov 5, 20142 votes

I disagree. Old Karma was just a mess. Rework helped a good deal.

Kalista, the only thing the ally needs to know is when to activte after grabbed. If they decide they dont see an oppertunity, they can "ult out" backwards or somewhere NOT in the middle of the enemy. Seems pretty simple to me.

littlemaliNov 7, 20141 votes

I disagree. Old Karma was just a mess. Rework helped a good deal.

What makes you think so?

Imo, a champion is "a mess" if it's unclear how this champion works.

This wasn't the case with Karma. She was just underplayed and pushed into a meme - mostly because those, who did not want to buy her, did not get a chance to play and learn her, because she rarely was part of the champ rotation.

Shortly before the rework took place, Riot placed her in a rotation. A lot of people tried her that week and realised how good she actually was.

MasuharaNov 6, 20142 votes

I don't think old Karma was a mess, reread the CertainlyT comment I posed and sub out Kalista for Karma, her old kit certainly fit that description. The rework helped her loose a unique identity she had.

She was not worthless on her own. In comparison you might say Kalista may be worthless without teammates. An early game solo lane Karma was able to hold her own just fine regardless of the match up. When the game transitioned into grouping up her versatility would just get accentuated. The new Karma design does not offer greater synergy with teammates than the older version. Let me explain. The new version offers one ability that interacts with allies which is the mantra'd shield. It requires a mantra to use and offers an aoe shield and speed boost. The old version could similarly speed boost her entire team without a mantra using her tether. She could supply a shield however only to one target but with a much greater ratio attached to it, and also supply an aoe heal of % missing health which I would argue is much better than a aoe shield. The new version has one ability that interacts with allies compared to the older version which had three, making the older version superior in regards to synergy with teammates.

The only flaw concerning old Karma was not with her but with popular play styles. Solo top, solo mid, adc and support bot, and a jungle in particular. While being perfectly capable of solo laning, her kit seemed tailor made to duo with a tanky mobile top (shen, renekton, mao ect.) which just isn't the popular play style. It would seem to me that Riot is taking another crack at making a team reliant / interactive champion. Adc's and supports are a staple of duo bot lanes so sure it makes sense, could work, and be popular. What happens if popularity changes and adc's become solo mid laners? Will Kalista become useless even though there is another "grouping up" stage to the game. Will she get a rework and loose the interaction she had with ally teammates?

The most upsetting thing to me is Riots contradiction. They are akin to these shrewd politicians during voting season. Opening old wounds of old Karma fans and contradicting themselves at the same time.

littlemaliNov 7, 20141 votes

Well said.

MasuharaNov 12, 20142 votes

Her short range cone was fine in mid and good in top vs. all the popular picks including rumble. Later in the game you could still use it offensively if the situation fit, as well as healing your entire team while besieging an inhib tower, which is pretty substantial. She could previously provide a speed boost to her entire team as a well as a slow to the enemy team. All 3 abilities were AOE with great ratio's, which if played in synergy with teammates really provided alot. All these interactions made her quite unique, a trait she lost with the rework. A rework partially done because the kit required a bit of teamwork. And now a new champion mainly based on teamwork / interaction. Why Riot?

7thHeavenNov 5, 20141 votes

Old karma's mate: What does this link do? Kalista's mate: What does this link do?

RITO: Better remove karma

JustMyBassCannonNov 6, 20141 votes

Old Karma was not just "reliant" on teammates.

She was halfway worthless without teammates. Literally half of her spell's effects were minimal if not completely unusable without an allied unit, and the other half were still better used on an ally (i.e. shield-bombing your teammate because longer range nuke).

The new Karma design is not only able to function on her own, but actually has greater synergy with teammates than her old design.

As far as Kalista is concerned, I don't know if making her kit team-reliant is going to be a good idea, but it seems a lot better for a marksman than a support (especially one as poorly designed as the old Karma design, says this particular old Karma player).

littlemaliNov 7, 20141 votes

Old Karma was not just "reliant" on teammates.

She was halfway worthless without teammates. Literally half of her spell's effects were minimal if not completely unusable without an allied unit, and the other half were still better used on an ally (i.e. shield-bombing your teammate because longer range nuke).

I have to disagree. What made old Karma useless without a teammate?

Her heal? She could deal damage to enemies in a cone without a mantra. She could heal herself based on % missing HP even without an ally just by casting Q while still dealing damage to an enemy. (I loved the Q+WotA combo heals). She could heal from almost dead to almost 50% health.
Her tether? She could use it on enemies as well slowing them while gaining speed herself. Mantra only doubled the buff (I would've loved to see the current snare added to that instead). If well-positioned, this would form a mobile acceleration gate (Jayce E) or a mobile "wall of pain" (Karthus W...without the dmg) to speed up or slow anyone passing through.
Her shield? She could cast it on herself or on allies - if she's surrounded by enemies, she'd even deal dmg with the mantra'd form.

The new Karma design is not only able to function on her own, but actually has greater synergy with teammates than her old design.

What synergy does new Karma have with teammates despite her shield? She can't heal her ally anymore. She additionally offers a snare and her slow is moved to a line-skillshot and an immobile area if mantra'd.

As a support she is an offensive damage dealer similar to Lux. Old Karma was a protector who could keep her carry in the lane for as long as she had mana.

JustMyBassCannonNov 7, 20141 votes

I have to disagree. What made old Karma useless without a teammate?

Her heal? She could deal damage to enemies in a cone without a mantra. She could heal herself based on % missing HP even without an ally just by casting Q while still dealing damage to an enemy. (I loved the Q+WotA combo heals). She could heal from almost dead to almost 50% health.

Her tether? She could use it on enemies as well slowing them while gaining speed herself. Mantra only doubled the buff (I would've loved to see the current snare added to that instead). If well-positioned, this would form a mobile acceleration gate (Jayce E) or a mobile "wall of pain" (Karthus W...without the dmg) to speed up or slow anyone passing through.

Her shield? She could cast it on herself or on allies - if she's surrounded by enemies, she'd even deal dmg with the mantra'd form.

Her cone had such a short range, she could not justify actually trying to use it offensively unless the target had some reason to not target her (such as a carry or jungler being a higher priority target). Yes, she could heal herself, and as a person who played the old Karma, I know exactly to what you are referring; R-E-R-Q at low HP to nuke someone while surviving the dive. That paper tiger strategy was the one and only reason for Karma to ever use the heal alone.
It was always ranked up last, using Mantra on it was considered wasteful in the majority of cases, and I don't think you understand just how small a 10% boost/slow is. Karma got +33.5 MS out of it, while her target might lose 40 MS; if they didn't have any form of mobility whatsoever, not even an MS steroid, then she could play Walk the Dog with her target. Otherwise, they could pretty easily break it. And you completely ignore that it was near impossible to deal damage with it, even with an ally.
Her shield bomb was overpowered back then. The thing dealt its damage in an AoE larger than Leona's ultimate instantly, it scaled 280+80% AP, and you could properly micro 3 of those shields in a row on a 6-second cooldown rotation. That said, if Karma did not have an ally, the AoE was only centered on herself, which meant she either had to be standing within killing range of everyone or they had to be diving her.

Interesting how I did not say old Karma was useless without a teammate, but rather that half of her kit's effectiveness relies on a teammate to be worthwhile, and you jump to the former conclusion.

What synergy does new Karma have with teammates despite her shield? She can't heal her ally anymore. She additionally offers a snare and her slow is moved to a line-skillshot and an immobile area if mantra'd.

As a support she is an offensive damage dealer similar to Lux. Old Karma was a protector who could keep her carry in the lane for as long as she had mana.

"She can't heal teammates anymore, how can she have synergy?"

How about the fact that she can afford to build support-type items instead of always needing to go full AP? How about the fact that she now has a 25-50% slow and a 40-60% MS boost that she can apply to her entire team? How about the fact that she's still capable of pulling off the old strategy, E-R-W instead, and she's now not a paper tiger?

Synergy and healing are separate terms; I would suggest learning the difference.