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@Riot - So... What Exactly IS Your Stance on DoTs?

Smartsize·11/29/2014, 8:14:04 AM·40 votes·14,497 views

"Brand’s spells come all at once. Like we mentioned earlier, Brand’s all about the combo." - Riot Nakyle, from the Dark Horse series.

Quote edited for accuracy; my response at bottom. "Cassiopeia had good AoE damage, but she wasn't the AoE mage. She also had good control, but she wasn't the control mage. She used damage over time, but she wasn't the DoT mage-- Brand, Rumble, Swain, Zyra, Malzahar, and even Mordekaiser compete in many/all of these fields." - Riot Stashu, from the thread "On the Future of Cassiopeia (Also, Some Background!)". Thanks to Elphrihaim for the link.

This quote pair DEEPLY concerns me, and this is why: it seems that nobody at Riot knows exactly what a DoT mage is, or at least that they cannot agree on it. The first quote shows Brand's true identity: a combo burst mage, correctly identified. However, Stashu's post, which was posted roughly a month and a half ago (correct me if I'm wrong), says that Brand was instead a DoT-centered mage on the same tier as Swain and Cassiopeia, and furthermore, that Cassiopeia was not a DoT-centered mage.

I've played almost entirely DoT or long-fight, "suicide" characters since I began playing 3 years ago; characters whose strategy is to do their rotational burst over a period of time or dive in the middle of a fight to disable the enemies before dying themselves; characters like Swain, Fiddlesticks, Morgana, Lissandra, Anivia, and before the rework, Cassiopeia. I love being able to disable enemies or do large amounts of damage drug out over a long period, and it's the only playstyle I've really ever been able to play consistently.

Riot Stashu's initial post on what exactly makes a DoT mage a DoT mage was worrying enough; classifying Mordekaiser, who is known for his insta-lane pushing death wave, and Zyra, known for her great disables and high supporting burst damage, on the same level as Swain and old Cassiopeia, the League's 2 premier "Crippler" Champions, was more than a little disturbing. But this new post shows an even more awkward trend, in that the members of Riot's team don't exactly agree on what exactly a DoT is. What's even worse than THAT is that somebody on the Champion Reworks team believes that Zyra and Mordekaiser (A champ who, bye the way, is coming up for a rework himself) are on this same tier.

I'm confused. This isn't a hate thread on Riot Stashu. In fact, I really do think that he has his best interests in mind with every Cassio change he makes, whether or not it turns out well, and that he will keep trying until we can reach a compromise on how Cassiopeia plays. This isn't a Cassiopeia thread either, as there are already plenty that describe perfectly our feelings about this passive that NEEDS to go.

I am legitimately confused as to how Riot trains their employees to look at DoTs as a damage source. The fact that somebody who works so closely with a team designated to redesigning champions, AND who has worked so diligently on a champion whose ENTIRE POINT was DoT damage for the last 4 months, does not know how to correctly identify a DoT pattern from a Burst Damage pattern, is worrying.

Is Riot training employees at all as to what they think a DoT pattern is? If so, what is that pattern? If not, why not, and why don't you think it's important to have all of your balance employees working under the same set of assumptions? In short, What is Riot's stance on DoTs, and what are they doing to address it?

Edit: In response to my misquote, the quote has been updated to accurately reflect what Stashu actually said. Here is my response, full credit to Ephrihaim for finding this. I was only looking on the Boards, not old GD:

"Your ideas for her as a champion may well suit her better, but I also fear that they would be stepping on Brand's toes. In the future, im sure we'll do more work at differentiating dot based champions in our game (malz, morde, brand, cassi, etc) and id definitely like for one of them to more closely hit on your ideas here." - Riot Stashu, from Let's Talk Cassiopeia.

I think this post speaks for itself. I don't have a problem with hearing things like these as long as you can explain your thinking behind it, which you did, although I'd still like to know how Riot as a company treats these things. Is it at all, or is it mostly up to employee discretion on how to handle these things?

Also, please do not attack Stashu in this thread. It's not the point and it's unfair to him. I want more Rioters to respond; I want to know how Riot handles this as a whole. I don't want to scare them all off.

57 Comments

Fed by Snu Snu11/29/2014, 9:21:47 AM36 votes

http://i.imgur.com/j8jqH.jpg

I'll just leave this here.

RiotRiot Stashu11/29/2014, 9:03:38 PM35 votes

Well, I see why you're concerned. Brand is defined by many things, including his combo system, not just by his dots, and in that sense he is not an archetypal 'DoT Mage.'

That's strictly a misquote. Please don't do that. Here is the original quote directly from the post you linked:

Hence, our planned changes primarily revolved around identifying and clarifying her identity. Our results: Cassiopeia had good AoE damage, but she wasn't the AoE mage. She also had good control, but she wasn't the control mage. She used damage over time, but she wasn't the DoT mage-- Brand, Rumble, Swain, Zyra, Malzahar, and even Mordekaiser compete in many/all of these fields. However, it was quite clear that compared to other mages, Cassiopeia stood nearly alone when it came to consistent DPS output.

My claim here is that Cassiopeia, Rumble, Swain, Zyra, Brand, and many other mages in league of legends have powerful DoTs, zone control, and AoE damage on their kits all at the same time, not that Brand is the premiere DoT mage. More specifically, in context, my point was "Mage that has good zone control, AoE damage, and DoTs is not a unique and interesting identity, because so many people already do that."

I really just wanted to clear that up, but I'll take a stab at answering your question.

At a base level, damage can be applied all at one (burst) or over time (DoT). Zyra's plants raise an interesting question, do they periodically deal burst damage, or do DoT? I would argue strongly for the case that they are DoT spells, as the loose description of 'periodically bursting' could apply just as well to a traditional DoT spell, and also that the description references any span of time ('periodically,') it is by definition a DoT. Similarly, Mordekaiser's W ("Creeping Death") deals DoT damage, as does Malzhar's W ("Null Zone").

So, that's what a DoT spell is, strictly, and that's how I use the term. However, I think there is a more colloquial definition of a DoT which makes classifying "Creeping Death" as such feel a bit weird. I think it goes something like this,

"A DoT is a spell that, once it hits, will unavoidably do periodic damage to the target."

The poster children for this type of DoT are spells like Malzahar's E ("Malefic Visions") and Swain's E ("Torment"). This is why "Miasma" feels more like a dot than "Null Zone" despite the spells being extremely similar, because you can just step out of "Null Zone" to stop taking DoT damage, but once "Miasma" hits you, even if you step out you are still DoT'd.

This is not to say that most people won't define Rumble's Ultimate as a DoT, but really just that some spells feel more DoT-like than others, even when all of them technically do damage over time. Again, I use the stricter definition of DoT when talking about DoTs, but I can understand why "Miasma" feels more DoT-y than "Null Zone," though ultimately they are both DoTs.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that's how I think of DoT spells.

Elphrihaim11/29/2014, 9:11:25 AM10 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/gFME3v51-on-the-future-of-cassiopeia-also-some-background

[just so you have it!]

DoTs are different because some people can recognize the power of a DoT while others can't.

Stashu seems to fall in the latter.

No Singed player doesn't appreciate the 2.5 seconds it takes for Poison Trail to deal it's amazing... what, 150 (+40% AP)? Magic Damage.

It's not a very visceral poison, but the reason why it's easier to appreciate is because Singed is a tank.

Which doesn't make any sense right

But it's because a tank is expected to deal constant, but low, damage. Singed's poison covers that. Thus, he doesn't perform basic attacks, thus his AA can afford to be a bit weaker (iirc he has low ad/level) since he never really relies on them. Because Singed is so tanky, he isn't expected to deal tons of damage, thus his low-damage poison remains appreciated and understood (Tank does damage to you... but kinda slowly).

Cassiopeia, on the other hand, has a powerful poison that marks on YOU instead of on the ground. Noxious Blast is this green ring that looks very poisonous.

It did 240 (+80% AP) Magic Damage over 3 seconds.

But you didn't get to as easily feel that it did that much damage, because it was high damage over time. So it can feel like a permanent-ignite effect.

It was kinda OP seeing as it had a 3 second cooldown. But it was definitely a really nice spell because it had appreciable damage (unlike now!) and because it was nice alone, even if you knew that playing out of E range wasn't ideal for your damage it was much better for your safety.

imho people that think that DoTs aren't appreciable and/or low in satisfaction are idiots because killing somebody that you can't see is the damn best feeling.

It's why, in Aeon of Storms, there's a guy that has something vaguely like Kog's ult... It has about twice the blast radius, deals quite a bit more damage, but has a much higher cooldown and three charges. (It also reduces enemy MR)

Because DAMN IT'S FUN NUKING THINGS YOU CAN'T SEE AND KILLING THEM. But it SUCKS if you miss. That's why it has three charges and shreds MR; the former so that it has both utility and finish potential, the latter because it makes it a strong move... when combined with allies that deal magic damage.

It makes you FEEL GOOD about yourself. It makes you able to contribute a lot.

Noxious Blast is the same way, just to a lesser extent. Miasma does too. They both had damage and utility and the mix made it fun.

Singed's Poison Trail is fun too.

Teemo is not fun unless you are Teemo and it is never fun to fight a Teemo... but not really because he has damage over time. It's because the DoT is appended to his AA (Shrooms don't count as a DoT because they are usually encountered while not fighting, thus taking damage over 4 seconds is about the same as being hit by a random skillshot; 'I took damage').

Anivia is fun because her DoT combines with her kit very nicely, creating a very powerful zone mage.

Brand's DoT gives him better poke/siege. It's not really part of his kit (since we're looking at the DoT aspect).

Udyr's DoT is over 2 seconds.

Alistar's DoT is strong and punishes enemies for being near Alistar which allows Alistar to protect his team by being near them. I personally like this one from a gameplay pov and Alistar plays a lot like a defender so it works.

Talon's DoT is great because it makes him feel even more badass and assassin-like, even though it lasts for 6 seconds.

I can't say for the rest of the DoTs because I've never seen them significantly enough in a game / don't recall them well enough.

Kowe The Ewok11/29/2014, 8:41:04 AM7 votes

Small DoT facts:

DoTs reapply, they don't stack. They reset, not prolong their duration.

This means: A DoT with 3s duration and 3s CD won't receive a single target DPS increase from CDR. (CDR only raises the danger of reapplying it too early, making it mana inefficient).

This means that a burst spell with the same CD, Damage and Ratio can have 40% more DPS through CDR.

Nausicäa 11/29/2014, 9:18:52 AM7 votes

Riot is creating a DoT training program dont worry all Riot employees will soon be trained in DoTs.

chumbler11/29/2014, 9:58:03 PM7 votes

"Your ideas for her as a champion may well suit her better, but I also fear that they would be stepping on Brand's toes. In the future, im sure we'll do more work at differentiating dot based champions in our game (malz, morde, brand, cassi, etc) and id definitely like for one of them to more closely hit on your ideas here. Im sorry that this version of Cassiopeia wont be exactly that, but I am definitely confident in the direction that we're taking her, even if it de-emphasizes melty dot damage a bit."

God this pisses me off so much. Putting Malzahar, Brand, and fucking Mordekaiser on the level of Cassiopeia as dot-based champions is beyond idiotic. Saying that they are not sufficiently differentiated on top of that is so stupid that I have a hard time believing stashu actually knows how to breathe.

I've figured it out, stashu wasn't hired to be a designer, because he sure as shit isn't qualified for it if he actually believes literally anything he's posted. He was hired as an experiment to see how much Riot can piss off their players, and damn if he isn't doing that job with gusto. This man is infuriating.

Stephenizgod11/29/2014, 10:03:59 AM6 votes

Malzhar is a great example of a DoT mage (in my opinion the best example), the Q is the only one not a DoT. Having 3 DoT abilities that he relies on for different things, The W is for tanks and to up his ults damage (can also be used to poke or farm), the E is for farming and doing tons of extra damage for poking or while ulting, and the ult is for killing or locking down one person. In fact you can even count his Voidlings as DoT... their damage is done per basic attack, seen a different way it could be damage per tick/second, or DoT :D.

Swain is another good example with his Q,E, and R, specially since he relies on his Q for cc, E for extra damage, and his R for lifesteal and damage.

Cass is a DoT mage... not a very strong one but still... her E is similar to Brands set-up and her Ult is just a straight up attack.

Fiddles is somewhat a DoT mage, but i personally think he relies more on his CC ability rather then his DoT.

Morde is not a DoT mage, he has a DoT ability but its more for just extra damage during his burst, not so much reliant on it. The same applies for Morgana, Anivia, Brand, Darius, and Talon. Its more of an added damage rather then main damage.

Singed i feel is a DoT tank, because his kit revolves around his poison and making people run into it (they always chase the singed... always... me included).

Hmm i will explain why i don't think Anivia and Brand are DoT mages. Anivia isnt because she doesn't rely on her Ults DoT, she relies on her E for double damage; its basically just extra damage and easier to use her E. Brand too, he doesn't rely on his passives DoT, he relies on the bonuses gained from his passive (idk if that makes sense), so yet again its just extra damage along with the awesome bonuses you get.

Thats all i feel like mentioning...

So if i had to put into one sentence what i thought made a DoT mage i would say "Any champion whose kit and play style relies on a DoT's actual damage both for attacking an enemy champion and farming/pushing lane rather then the bonuses/perks they give to other abilities." ill also add any CC that comes with those DoTs would be added bonuses, they still rely on them mainly for the damage.

Sorry for the long post, i also like DoT mages! Obviously Malz is my favorite so im sure its pretty biased that i think he is the perfect example of a DoT mage. I just feel he relies on his DoT's purely for damage and other then the suppress, they give no cc or added bonuses.

ModKnightsKemplar11/29/2014, 9:07:12 PM6 votes

Honestly, I think we are running into a classic case of "Riot is made up of many employees." We often have this perception, as players, of Riot as an entity, but the more likely thing is that they all have differing opinions, just like us players. The people who wrote those articles may have different opinions about this issue. I also think this sometimes contributes to Rioters being hesitant to respond to us on the forums. They don't want to step on each other's toes, because they don't want people doing this to them. Sometimes they disagree. It's something we need to get used to.

chumbler11/29/2014, 9:09:22 PM5 votes

Stashu again trying to push his stupid lie that Cass "wasn't the dot mage."

And yeah, I guess if you claim not being unique to mean "Is a champion who does things", then sure, Cass wasn't unique. It's also a joke that you're claiming you made her more unique by focusing her around what is literally a more tedious autoattack with downsides, which is also done better by several other champions. Scrap your shitty rework.

PS Your definition of dot is uselessly reductive. According to your definition, an autoattack can be classified as a dot.

chumbler11/29/2014, 4:25:47 PM4 votes

Something something game health something something other new buzzword something something clarity something something antifun.

Elphrihaim11/29/2014, 9:50:45 PM4 votes

#Smartsize

That's my point though; I would easily argue that all of the characters you named except Anivia and Singed ARE NOT DoT characters. Sure, they have DoTs, and those DoTs contribute to their damage, but in no right should they ever be afforded to be called "DoT" Champions. Simply because a character has a DoT attached to their kit does not make them a DoT champ, and that's what Stashu seems to believe. Mordekaiser has a DoT in his ult, but nobody would dare call him a DoT-based champion. They might be fun parts of the champ, but they're not core ideas.

Alistar's DoT rewards him with lots of damage over durations for playing well.

It's the same logic that makes Singed a DoT champ, Ali's a tank and does damage over time but it's not that strong, merely constant.

Singed's DoT is just a poison and Ali's is a dps around him.

I'd say they're very similar in end function and fantasy offered, denying space and the punishment for enemies going there anyway is damage high enough that it isn't bad at first but actually contributes quite a lot due to how long it stays around.

The rest, though, definitely. Teemo's DoT doesn't have the feel, especially his ult. Brand's DoT supplements something his kit lacks as well as making a clear way for his opponents to know some of what's up. Udyr's DoT barely counts as a DoT.

Talon's DoT feels really nice so while it isn't core to him it's really nice if you know that it will kill somebody to hit them with it and then laugh away as they fall dead. There are plenty of ways to accomplish a similar goal and a DoT is the simplest and imo cleanest. See: Killing things you can't see is damn fun.

The hero I was talking about (Rancor with the three nukes) has the clear optimization for it-- You want to use a nuke and then have your magic damage dealers fight and weave in the nukes with your team's magic damage.

But it's way more fun to blindly nuke a spot after an enemy runs away and they just die. You know you're not using it optimally, but it's just so fun you don't care, and I think that that's what made Cassiopeia both balanced and enjoyable.

#Gidor

Your choice of words was bad.

Whose? The OP's? I don't think so...

On a serious note Riot doesnt seem to like DoT based champions. I believe they gave a reason that is something like its unsatisfying because you dont get to immediately see how much damage you're doing.

Well, anybody that thinks that (a DoT is unsatisfying because you don't get immediate damage) is welcome to that opinion. Just as I, as well as numerous others (probably over half of Cassiopeia's old playerbase), are welcome to the belief that DoT is more satisfying because you get to see the enemy healthbar trickle down despite their best efforts.

Honestly i would not consider Cassiopeia to be a "DoT champion" even though she has 2 DoT spells. Its important to make a distinction between DoTs and just sustained damage. Cassiopeia used her DoTs for poke and for wave clear, but in truth her primary source of dps has always been her E. Shes more of a hybrid champion whos main damage source is her E while also having a fallback pattern of poking with DoTs.

But the point is that the people want to not have to push E because they always felt that it was, though the optimal button to be pushing, a very boring and unsafe one. Thus they wouldn't want to have to get in range to use it-- because it wasn't very safe to use.

#Rockman

@Eli

Singed has low base AD because of towers. Reason why his ult doesn't give AD anymore as well.

Oh. Huh. Interesting.

But does it really make that much of a difference?

...and you called me Eli... But here I am Elphrihaim. Interesting, I wonder if I know you from elsewhere.

#ActualPain

Everybody left out THE most powerful DoT in the game: Udyr's tiger stance. Also maybe the only AD DoT in the game? (fact check plz)

I didn't. It's just not really a DoT because it deals damage over 2 seconds. Talon's Noxian Diplomacy DoT has AD scaling exclusively like Tiger Stance.

Either way, lvl 2 Udyr with tiger and bear or tiger and turtle is un-duelable by almost any other champ at lvl 2. I can't think of any.

Anybody that has good kiting can easily beat Tiger/Turtle Udyr. Cassio's actually got a pretty easy time at it, since in this situation what really matters is placement of you relative to opponent.

Tiger/Bear Udyr can easily be beaten by heavy-burst mages.

Both are beaten by hard CC (Annie, Syndra) because it doesn't matter how strong you are in melee if you never get in melee.

#Stashu

Well, I see why you're concerned. Brand is defined by many things, including his combo system, not just by his dots, and in that sense he is not an archetypal 'DoT Mage.'

That's strictly a misquote. Please don't do that. Here is the original quote directly from the post you linked:

While the linked post is not where you say that, YOU DO ACTUALLY SAY THAT.

"Your ideas for her as a champion may well suit her better, but I also fear that they would be stepping on Brand's toes. In the future, im sure we'll do more work at differentiating dot based champions in our game (malz, morde, brand, cassi, etc) and id definitely like for one of them to more closely hit on your ideas here. Im sorry that this version of Cassiopeia wont be exactly that, but I am definitely confident in the direction that we're taking her, even if it de-emphasizes melty dot damage a bit."-- in the post Stashu is replying to there are no ideas for changes, merely a relaying of how a game went.

So no, Stashu, we're not misquoting you.

And if you're not responding to me I apologize but I can't tell at all since I use chronological view :D

BastionKross11/30/2014, 3:35:09 PM2 votes

Swain is a DoT champion because most of his damage is coming from his Q, E, and R, which are all DoT abilities.

Singed is a DoT champion because most of his damage comes from his Q, which is a DoT ability.

Mordekaiser is not a DoT champion because most of his damage comes from Q and E (which are not DoT abilities), and the initial burst damage of his R. Morde may have DoT damage in his kit (more specifically his W and the non-burst damage of his R) but that does not qualify him as a DoT champion.

Ashe (and all other marksmen) is not a DoT champion because while she may deal sustained damage, that is the result of multiple attacks or abilities and not a single ability. This is called DPS, not DoT.

If any Rioters are ever confused about whether a champion is or is not a DoT champion, I have solved your dilemma here.

Smartsize11/30/2014, 12:17:01 AM2 votes

Thank you for all your replies so far; I've updated the thread to reflect what I think are the strongest points. Let's keep this conversation going; can we get more Rioters to respond?

Also, friendly reminder to not attack anybody in this thread. I don't want any more comments saying that Stashu is shitty and doesn't know what he's doing; that's not true and it's not the point of this thread.

gubigubi11/30/2014, 4:36:41 AM2 votes

Wow that's scary how this is even a topic of discussion. Rumbles ult = AoE Cass poison = DoT Casses poison on the ground = AoE that applies a dot. Zyras plants are = minions/turrets/pets that basically just auto attack Don't over think it. Please.

ActualPain11/29/2014, 2:45:31 PM1 votes

Everybody left out THE most powerful DoT in the game: Udyr's tiger stance. Also maybe the only AD DoT in the game? (fact check plz)

Either way, lvl 2 Udyr with tiger and bear or tiger and turtle is un-duelable by almost any other champ at lvl 2. I can't think of any.