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Riot doesn't understand that Dynamic Q will be frustrating even if it's balanced

Quantum Weeb·5/31/2016, 9:55:49 PM·191 votes·4,897 views

In case you haven't heard, Riot has posted an update about dynamic queue, stating that solo queue will not be coming back.

Reading through the post, I noticed that Riot seems to be approaching the problem from a purely statistical perspective. In other words, "if people playing in a premade of X size have the exact same chance to win the game as solo queue players, dynamic queue is working." While this seems reasonable at first glance, that kind of balancing won't alleviate player frustration.

Everyone has had a game where it seems like the enemy team is perfectly coordinated. Six minutes in and there's five people bot lane diving your turret and walking out with a double kill. Suddenly, your teammates are typing "open mid" in all chat and end the game with "screw dynamic queue."

In Riot's ideal world, this scenario is just as frustrating as it is now. You can show players statistics all day that both teams had the same chance to win. You can show players that everyone on the enemy team was actually in a lower division and had lower MMR to compensate for the advantage of dynamic queue.

The thing is that gamers just do not care about statistics. Losing lane to someone better than you sucks, but losing lane because the enemy team had better coordination through dynamic queue sucks even more. If your team wins but you spent the entire game being camped, you're probably not cheering over the victory. Even if you stack the odds in favor of solo queue players, they will still be frustrated.

This all leads to an even greater issue, the threat of dynamic queue. In the past, if you got killed by a 5 man dive in ranked, the enemy team was simply coordinated. Nowadays, you usually assume that they're just a premade. I'm willing to bet that most of the times people accuse the enemy of being a premade, they probably aren't. How often have you checked the scoreboard to see how many enemies have the same club tag, only to find none of them share a club?

It doesn't matter if 20%, 2%, 0.2% or 0.000000002% of games have a 5 man premade in them. Just the idea that the enemy team might have killed you because they're premade is frustrating enough on its own. That amazing Malph ult > Ori ult > Yasuo ult penta might have just been the result of a few good pings between solo queue players, but good luck convincing the other team of that while dynamic queue exists.

If Riot wants to continue with dyanmic queue, they will need some way to tackle all of these issues. The goal of a vast majority of people playing League of Legends, or any game for that matter, is to have fun. It's tempting to think these sorts of problems can be solved with some tweaks to the matchmaking algorithm, balance is only a means to an end, not an end in itself. Doing statistical analysis can be difficult, but the true challenge is using those statistics in a meaningful way.

Tl;dr: Riot seems to think that frustration with dynamic queue will disappear when premades have the same win rate as solo queue players. If you've ever had 5 people dive you under tower at 7 minutes, you'll understand why that's not the case. Just the idea that you might be up against a 5 man premade makes any coordinated action they do extremely frustrating, even if they're all solo queue players.

56 Comments

MisterShameless5/31/2016, 10:39:12 PM22 votes

Another issue is that they removed any indication of pre mades (lolnexus had this, but was asked to remove this feature by riot) Sure, you can check their tags, but often times they will have different tags since you can be in three different groups. They need something to show this.

PrometheS5/31/2016, 10:03:47 PM19 votes

It's nonsense. Clumping every queue configuration together makes no sense for ranked ladder since solo to 5-man are different skills and experiences (plus possible voice chat/pre-game advantages). No matter how hard you try to adjust it, it's inherently a broken system if you take competitive play seriously. There is simply no other way around it. That's the problem for me. It's not just unfair matchmaking, it's that it lacks validity as a ranking system since it doesn't force consistency in the experience despite putting everything on a single ladder.

They could at least show a solo ranking separately though even if it's all DQ still.

Spacesuit Spiff6/1/2016, 5:52:40 AM4 votes

I dont get why anyone would care about the "threat" of DQ. You have options against the huge ganks, people are just offended because they think its unfair that they should have to deal with huge ganks in the first place. Hell, we just had a meta where everyone would tp bot every time the laners poked each other but that was ok because the people doing it weren't premade?

DQ is just an excuse to lose. When I go bot i expect to control the lane, and get ganked a lot once I start winning. I work with that too. Doesn't matter if the enemy team might be premade.

And before someone says the 5 bot has no counterplay, heres what you do: -mind the other lanes. If your laners are backed or shoved in, theres no reason the enemy team can't do a huge gank, so you play cautiously -when the gank comes, you don't die to it. If they can't dive, you waveclear while your team pushes uncontested as the enemies impotently glare at you. If they can dive, leave the tower and find a safe route to mid, to match their push and then probably get herald -if you do die, and the enemy adc didn't get the kills, resume crushing them if possible. You'll keep getting ganked, but this provides another opportunity to execute the above, and so much enemy presence bot probably helps the rest of your team.

Wheatloaf6/1/2016, 12:43:28 AM3 votes

It's a game in which someone always has to lose. That's how competitive games work. And certain people, when they lose, will look for any plausible excuse for that loss, especially if it pins the blame on someone other than them. Dynamic Queue existing or not isn't going to change that.

9kPluzZ6/1/2016, 5:30:08 AM3 votes

You disregard the fact if the enemy team has premade and your a solo player, chances are there are 4 man premades on both teams. You might even be laning against another solo player. Apparently Dynamic que is an excuse for your lack of warding, positioning, etc. Frustrating=/= unfair.

Aakesh6/1/2016, 4:11:14 AM2 votes

To address position shortages, we’re adding an autofill mode that can trigger when queue times are too long. If players enter queue with excessive estimated wait times, the matchmaker will potentially assign them a role other than the two they selected.

GET ASSIGNED A RANDOM ROLE AGAINST YOUR WILL EITHER STOP QUEUING OR GET RANDOM ROLE JUST DONT PLAY THE GAME WHILE OUTSIDE PEAK HOURS GUYS

Isnt that like the opposite of what the company wants????

World Ender5/31/2016, 11:17:05 PM2 votes

Ranked is frustrating. It always will be. No matchmaking system can ever be perfect, and Dynamic Queue is not suddenly making ranked unfair. Encountering premades is never fun, but encountering a duo with old solo queue had nearly the same effect.

Tufio6/1/2016, 2:27:20 PM1 votes

dynamic can't really be balanced better than this, is a broken system.

NiP Almaxy6/1/2016, 3:58:13 PM1 votes

Yesterday i downloaded and transferred to OVERWATCH hahaha, I wont waste time with the mercenary riot who dont listen to their playerbase!

BYE BYE RIOT!!!

[slayer-jinx-catface]

KarmasPolice6/1/2016, 4:07:40 PM1 votes

YES! THIS! I play a little, but let me tell you that when a game like this rolls on it is x10000 as frustrating as a normal loss.

Spoofghoul6/1/2016, 5:58:44 PM1 votes

you know what the worst

getting matched agains lower mmr premade they stomp you early you stomp them late game sucks all the way through either side

that or its a general stompfest from the start for either the premades or higher mmr player and again no one has a afeeling of fun and accomplisment.

This shit is taking the fun out of games, i can deal with imbalanced champions etc i get to ban 3 right and i have counters to almost everything so i really do not give a shite. but when games become shitty stompests one after the other and im not having fun then screw riot and their game ill go play soemthing which will entertain me

Mecha MaIphite6/1/2016, 7:19:10 PM1 votes

Upvoted, not because I care about solo Q but because you actually put effort into your post and made good arguments.

Meanwhile other posts just say "fuck you riot" and get upvoted like hell.

LaughingStapler6/1/2016, 10:46:04 PM1 votes

It's not even frustration, it's just devaluing the rank and making it meaningless by clumping every queue configuration into a single ranking. It's a ranking that isn't representative of either 5s or solo and it's just a mess. Absolutely terrible stuff! I don't know what they were thinking. It would be like if you mix doubles and singles tennis and slap a single ranking on a player combining both. You wouldn't know who the best singles or doubles tennis player is. It's completely nuts.

Dengeden6/2/2016, 8:34:20 AM1 votes

You're right, players will always look for reasons other than themselves as to why they are losing.

Bot lane orgies have been a thing since the beginning of time. Why wouldn't you camp an underleveled squishy and an underleveled, underfarmed utility bot? Good players will never not do this and to be blunt the reason as to why is irrelevant (even if you're not as deterministic as I am).

Is getting camped frustrating and does it invalidate certain champion picks? Regrettably yes but that's a bridge you have to cross, not one you should wish to ignore in hope of the enemy team hating each other.

Fovere6/2/2016, 7:35:18 PM1 votes

Completely agree with the OP.

It's not really a question of who has the statistical advantage over a shit load of games. The individual games themselves may not be balanced.

One of the largest complains about the experience of DQ is the lack of impact as the solo player. Win or lose, you just don't seem to matter much. Even iof they manage to balance MM in DQ, which is a big if, they still won't be addressing this issue

Voidrey6/2/2016, 7:58:21 PM1 votes

in retrospect all diving under one tower is a stupid idea

Faceroll Tactics6/1/2016, 3:23:57 AM1 votes

They had to announce this a mere week after Overwatch's release. I'm not a bandwagoner lets kill League because this is my favorite game and always will be but Riot is making fuckup after fuckup, and it's making it very hard to stick with them.

The Whamboozler6/1/2016, 4:00:31 AM1 votes

Also there is the sheer ball-clenching frustration of being in a match with a premade on your team and knowing that they will likely be deciding the game for you. If the 4-man you're grouped with decides to start baron with the entire enemy team alive and mia, they will. If they refuse to group, or they consistantly yolo into the enemy... well... sucks to be you. When you're a solo player you are immediately forced into the backseat of the match, doomed to go along with whatever goofy plays or strats the premade goes for. Are they gonna try to feed their mid all game? Man, that sucks for you if you need help top and the jungler doesn't give two squirts about you. You're a lesser on your own team unless you utterly stomp your lane, and even then the premade's superior coordination probably makes them more of a factor in your win or loss than you going 5/0 in lane ever will.

You CAN still carry, or just influence a game as the solo in a team with a premade... but it feels like going uphill. The premade gets all the rewards of the system. Superior coordination, bonus IP, etc etc. You get left in the dust praying that they're good... because you will NEVER influence the game as strongly as four other people can, and those four people are probably not concerned in the least about you or what you're doing.

BloodyTompon6/1/2016, 8:43:45 AM1 votes

In Riot's ideal world, this scenario is just as frustrating as it is now, precisely because it is. All that's happening is the blame is being shifted to dynamic Q. People will get shitty and go on tilt regardless. I'm not seeing this as a problem and certainly not one unique to dynamicQ.

Mojihito6666/1/2016, 9:15:08 AM1 votes

The solution to your problem is very simple.

Stop making premades a fking secret. Make it obvious.

Teamoe6/1/2016, 1:23:56 PM1 votes

Im pretty sure they can balance Dynamic Queue matchmaking. By balancing I mean its going to be as terrible of an experience for solo players on both teams to get matched with and against premades :D

S H A Y C 06/1/2016, 1:38:01 PM1 votes

Im salty because they are straight up lying...they are lying about the data, the reasons, and what they are doing to "fix" it.

I saw the average Q time for silver was less than 5 minutes.

BULLSHIT!

My average Q time is 6-7 minutes Jungle-Mid

Gripe #2

Id play jungle support, but i cant...i can only play support because dynamic Q is trash. The problem with team builder wasnt that certain roles were popular, its that ONE ROLE IS CRAP.

Top Lane - can pick whatever, get gold, build items of choice

Mid lane - can pick whatever, get gold, build items of choice

"bot lane" or ADC/Marksman - must be ranged character, gets gold, builds whatever

Jungle - must take smite, picks whatever, builds whatever has nice jungle items just for him that are strong and effecient.

Support - has to pick champions with hard CC, typically relegated to picking a tank or get blamed/flamed for loss, must pick champions that can operate on a starvation income, forced to buy sightstone / support items. only one of them is any good.

Its the most restricted role in the game, its the most reliant on others to succeed role, and its the least rewarding. Very few want to play it, and its no wonder why that is. And Riot still has no idea why Q times are so bad...

_ All you need riot is average IQ, hire one person that can read and write with a high school diploma, there you will find your answers_