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Quick Cassiopeia update re: pbe and 4.21

RiotRiot Stashu·11/20/2014, 7:33:16 PM·42 votes·36,897 views

note: copying this here because the Cassio thread got lost

Hey guys, sorry I've been afk for so long! I've been waiting to get some PBE feedback. I'm finally able to make that happen now that 4.20 launched, so let's get to it =D

I think we had some amazing conversations in that last thread thread. We're keeping the changes to a medium scope for this patch, but I think we've gone a long way in the right direction. I know there are still many concerns, but let's let this shake out on live for a bit and see where she ends up, then revisit the conversation.

Our thinking for this current changelist is

  • Bring back poison as a core part of Cassiopeia's damage profile
  • Curb the overly exaggerated hyper carry curve so that she can function early game
  • A few different things are happening here, like adding straight damage to her early game with the Twin Fang debuff, increasing Twin Fang's ratio early game, and increasing Q's movement speed boost early game. We're also bringing down her late game a touch with some of these changes, but her DPS should still be off the charts.

Looking further into the future, hopes are to turn Aspect of the Serpent bonuses into more exciting, lateral-power points instead of super direct boosts to power which make it feel as if Cassiopeia can't be strong until 30 minutes into the game. There was some pretty serious brainstorming towards this end, and it was a huge help for thinking about where we could take the passive, and that was super awesome.

However, for now, here's what you can expect for 4.21:

  • Aspect of the Serpent
  • No longer stacks on poisoned unit kill or on Twin Fang casts on enemy champions.
  • Now, stacks once every 6 seconds (10 times per minute) and for every second that an enemy champion is poisoned.
    • Stack breakpoints adjusted to 100 / 250 / 500. Overall, these are hit sooner than the old 75/200/400 based on the new mechanics, but are definitely still up for discussion.
  • Noxious Blast
  • Delay changed to actually function as intended (previously hitting between 0.25 and 0.5s). Now has a 0.4s delay.
    • With the reliability changes, it was a bit too reliable, so we set the delay at 0.4.
  • Movement speed buff changed to a flat 20% (from 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30%).
  • Twin Fang
  • Mana cost changed to 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75 (from 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90)
  • ** Now adds a debuff on the target which amplifies further poison damage by 25% for 5 seconds, stacks up to 2 times (50%). **
  • Ratio changed to 0.55 (from 0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55/0.6)
    • Since we're adding damage elsewhere on the kit (mostly through this debuff), we decided to take a bit out of Twin Fang's late game.

Cheers!

237 Comments

Scampy11/20/2014, 8:18:20 PM70 votes

To repeat what I said in another thread, if you're so hell-bent on keeping this gutter trash passive, at least clean it up. Make the 25% CDR into 20% so we can actually get Athene's without going over the cap. This would free up some power to give to the first breakpoint so hitting 75 stacks feels like less of a waste of time. Give a big ol' chunk of stacks upon killing a champ, because as it stands I'm better off to keep spamming poison without killing my lane opponent so I can get more stacks out of them. Just a 5-10 stack bonus on kill would be a huge improvement. Not enough to make us like it, but enough to make her a bit less garbage until you stop trying to force this crap on us and actually listen to what the players want.

And no, it's not because of communication issues or weak release power levels leaving a sour taste in our mouths. We're not in 3rd grade, stop treating us like angry children who don't know what they want. We're not petty enough to be this adamant about hating something if we don't really, really hate it. There are so many better ways to control a champion's scaling, and clearing out Aspect of the Serpent would leave a huge space for a creative passive. You could reintroduce Deadly Cadence (one of the coolest passives this game ever had), you could give her bonuses for poisoning multiple enemies at once, give stacking debuffs based on how long a champ is poisoned and have those debuffs become exacerbated when she lands X twin fangs on the target, etc.

I still don't get why you want an evolve passive on Cass in the first place. I'm still hoping you'll realize it is pretty much universally despised, but I'm also becoming cynical enough as this process goes on to know I shouldn't hold my breath. Your whole "Oh don't worry, I just know better than you!" tone is coming across loud and clear.

And don't even think about doing the whole "Oh well it's hard to have a discussion when you're all so mean" thing Rioters sometimes do. More often than not that's a valid point, but not here. You've blatantly ignored our distaste for the new passive, disregarded our dislike of the E-focused playstyle (when poison amp is on the E, it's still an E-focused playstyle), cherrypicked comments that agree with you and avoided those that don't, responded to complaints with "I see your point!" but neglected to do anything in response to said complaints, talked to us like we're too immature to know what we want, responded to fair critique by disagreeing with players on how they should be enjoying the champion, and have been doing all of those things for MONTHS. I'm sorry if things got a bit "passionate" for you, but you don't get to play the victim here.

Hell, you haven't even asked what we want. Make a thread where you ask players, if you were to replace Aspect of the Serpent with a new passive, what would we want to see?

TL;DR: WHY YOU GOTTA DISRESPECT BRO?

Canastus11/20/2014, 7:48:30 PM28 votes

I'd appreciate it if you take a look at my latest thread regarding Cassiopeia's situation, Stashu. I've got the feeling that you could accomplish a lot more with this rework than you already have. Did you ever attempt to change the rewards on her passive for example?

Have you tried giving her flat ap-gains instead of an unreliable ap percentage-bonus which only favors glasscannon-builds? Even if you manage to approach the stackcap at a decent pace, it'll be useless without the necessay ap-items in your possession.

Also you need to put some power into her W, it's terribly disappointing to use. And if you wish to return her E ratio to her pre-rework one, please do the same for her flat-damage as well. Because right now it takes AT LEAST 700 AP just to reach the same power it had before. With your proposed change, it'll take EVEN more to get even with it.

Her current kit simply doesn't support a short-range single-target-dealer role, considering how easy it is to shut her down once you jump on her. Forcing her to expose her weakpoints on a constant basis is a very bad idea, she won't be able to function as a hypercarry like that. She's still vastly inferior to someone like Vayne or Tristana in that regard. I think you should allow her to become a serious poison aoe-threat once she reaches the lategame like Grand Eleven has proposed before, it would be more fitting AND a lot safer for her.

And lastly, there appears to be no difference in this concept compared to what you've shown us before - yet 4.20 doesn't feature any of your changes despite weeks of testing. So why do you have to make us wait even longer? I can't stand the feeling of having to put up with the current Cass for three more weeks while everyone else is getting something fresh and fancy in this patch.

Zero Point Sigma11/20/2014, 9:56:17 PM22 votes

sigh What is with Stashu's boner over this crap-ass stacking passive? Dude's only played her twice in ranked in the past year and just as much in normals, so unless there's some hidden Riot-only server, or he's got some Cassio-worshipping alt account, he doesn't even play her enough to either know/care enough about her to be doing the rework or it was more of an "Oh, pick me for the rework! Pick me, pick me!" It's not even a rework, it's just a different passive and trash ratios.

E spamming was A playstyle of hers, not the only one. If being a lane bully is such a bad thing, why aren't other champs taken to Zed's basement with Bruce Willis and Ving Rhames? (Gnar Leblanc Ryze etc). Regardless of how much you play around with the numbers on that stacking crap, she's going to stay the same thing: A gimp for most of the game, little bit of fun later on, if the game even lasts that long.

You can look at Cassio's KDA at the end of the game and it looks nice, but chances are, all the kills came from the last 5-10 minutes of the game, after being treated like a public glory hole for 25-30. If you're so hell-bent on keeping a stacking mechanism on her, then let the damage on her Q, W and E start out low and with more stacks, increase the damage on all three as it goes, because with this new iteration, once you start whacking someone with her E, who in their right mind is just going to sit around, thinking "You know what? I'm gonna play around in this poison puke that's hurting me even more." You'd need to be chasing them down, gung ho, to keep poison on them, which puts you too far out of position and turns you into gank bait.

Teemo and Twitch get to be defined by their poison abilities. Cassiopeia gets defined by waiting for 30 minutes until she can spam a non-poison spell as much as possible on a target that's poisoned.

5G8Nri0B5411/21/2014, 12:35:18 AM22 votes

As another point to add. You mentioned that you didn't like her being an uninteractive lane-bully...

Asides from the fact that the game already have a bunch of these types of champions to begin with, why not make her into a lane-bully that can work then?

With your intense focus on her E, she's just a mano-a-mano brawler. Is that what you see in Cassiopeia? Even with the new changes she is still WAY too E-centric. You claim her other spells are more substantial now but they're still completely irrelevant. If they're doing any damage at all, it's solely because she's spamming E to get the other spells to not be so pathetic.

My suggestion.** Abandon the "AP Marksmen Hyper-Carry" approach because it's not what Cassiopeia is and because it is flawed at it's very core. Remake her into someone with more focus on zoning and AoE Poison. THAT was a niche that only Cassiopeia provided.**

Slavvik11/21/2014, 5:27:30 AM21 votes

I really would like to know why you keep disregarding what we're saying and trying to just force other ways to get her into the path that you want, regardless. We don't want some crappy no-defensive option single target burster that has to do far more steps to achieve SIMILAR damage to what other champions can do in a single move.

We want a Cassiopeia with a great Q and timing-based game play that makes her a threat consideration for more than just one enemy player.

Here's how I've seen just about every discussion and proposal iteration go:

Poster: "We really want 'ABC', because 'XYZ'" Riot: "'XYZ' are some really great points, thank you - I've learned a lot"

Next 'beta' plans: We've given Cassiopeia 'MPF'!

Poster: "This is not the fun direction we want, Riot. 'MPF' isn't fun, it won't make us like her again, and she'll still be a weak joke. We want 'ABC' because 'XYZ' Riot: "Thank you, 'XYZ' are some really great points - let me take this feedback and redesign!"

Next 'beta' plans: Thanks to your feedback, we've changed 'M' slightly so as to really enhance the 'PF' portion of her redesign!"

Poster: "........... 'A...B...C...'?" Riot: "Yes, see? We gave her 'MPF' because 'XYZ', just like you asked!"

Kinda feels like a twilight zone episode. Or possibly it feels like this

Look, my bottom line is this.

If you want something like a single target poison enhanced mage like what you're hoping to accomplish with Cass, then just make a new champion. Otherwise, stop trying to drag us kicking and screaming into a direction nobody wants for Cass but you

5G8Nri0B5411/21/2014, 12:16:13 AM21 votes

I'll just begin this post by pointing out the obvious. I haven't played the newest iteration of Cassiopeia yet for obvious reasons (she's not out!). And playing the current one anymore is just going to piss me off more and more with how frustratingly unfun she is.

So any comments made by me is without the direct experience of playing in the PBE.

Also, no sticky for this one?

  • A few different things are happening here, like adding straight damage to her early game with the Twin Fang debuff, increasing Twin Fang's ratio early game, and increasing Q's movement speed boost early game. We're also bringing down her late game a touch with some of these changes, but her DPS should still be off the charts.

Again I have to ask.

Does it really need to be off the charts? She'd be MUCH more fun if she was consistently good.

I mentioned it yesterday in the old thread, but the direction of this rework is flawed at it's core. People didn't play the old Cassiopeia hoping to be some Ryze-wannabe, some single-target hyper-carry. She was never an *"AP Marksmen Hyper-carry" *before, she wasn't designed to be one, she was designed to inflict substantial AoE with decent single-target up-close.

I understand the desire to take away her ability to lane-bully. But as I said before, there's such a thing as going too far, and going hyper-carry is just that.

2pudge1cup11/20/2014, 10:31:51 PM19 votes

How about just revert the rework? The old champ was conceptually fine and balanced perfectly fine. The new one has no coherence unless you overbuff her numbers since her new passive is just a bunch of stats.

Scarborough Fair11/20/2014, 8:28:07 PM18 votes

Movement speed buff changed to a flat 20% (from 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30%).

I don't like that change. You said it would be 25% before She really needs the mobility to duel against gap-closing champion which is like 65% of league's champions

yellowbricks11/21/2014, 7:12:36 AM14 votes

Passive status: Still a trash bad stack based one.

Better luck next time.

IndyBoy11/21/2014, 2:05:27 AM13 votes

1/2 Ok so I posted this on the previous thread and never got a response so I'm posting it here as well.

Ok so I've made multiple post on the original Cass forum (Lets talk Cassiopeia) before it closed and posted on every subsequent thread. I've read basically every Riot post from the beginning of this rework til this point and so I'm going to offer my 2 cents into the discussion. This will be a critical write up and I will try to include every bit of information I possibly can.

First off I'd like to make a comment on how this rework was handled. For one it was highly rushed through PBE, even though there was tons of criticism from the very beginning. There was minimal Riot communication through this stage and it translated into how the rework was released. Horribly. Then the next forum that began, "Lets Talk Cassiopeia," was horribly handled as well. The player base presented mass amounts of criticism from the get go. Not much of it was actually addressed and the responses that were received by reds were mostly responses to positive and/or neutral feedback. Very little critical feedback was addressed. But the critical feedback didn't just stop, it continued for 300 PAGES of discussion, almost 90 percent devoid of Riot involvement. I had filed a complaint during this time and was told it was due to World's and that Riot was basically a mad house at the time. This was horrible planning on Riots part to release a rework so close to World's and absolutely shouldn't have been done. Anyway the discussion has moved to the boards and although the reds involvement has been better, it has still been, for the most part, a negative experience. Much of the criticism from the previous threads still exist, but much of it still goes unanswered.

The reasons for the change have, in my opinion, been completely unwarranted and uncalled for. Riot says Cass was an overbearing lane bully and her pattern of play was a negative impact on the game. Hearing this I will examine other, similar, lane bullies. Lets take Syndra for instance, she has similar range on her Q, which is instant damage btw, better self peel, and a targeted instakill ultimate that can kill squishies from 3/4 health. Another oppressive bully is Xerath, who has better range, better AOE with MR shred, a stun and a slow that does more damage than Cass's slow with about the same range and aoe. These Champions, among others are much more oppressive lane bullies than old Cass. So when you say you changed Cass because she was too oppressive a laner, I have no idea what the heck you're talking about.

Cass's change in identity does not fit her gameplay wise. She used to be a strong, not overbearing, laner, with a strong mid game, and an average to weak late game. In lane Cass had access to good wave clear, risky but good harass, but was vulnerable to early ganks pre-6. Mid game she transferred well into mid game teamfighting through her strong aoe damage and cc. Late game though she fell off slightly but would still be plenty relevant. Especially as a tank killer through building rylais and liandries. In my opinion no AP champ killed tanks better than old Cass. Her dots were reliable and relatively safe late game. Also if the enemy team was lacking tanks then building a more damage oriented build was still very effective. Now though Cass has bad early damage, bad mid game, and an average to strong late game. Early she has no damage, mana issues and is still vulnerable to ganks. Mid game she contributes almost nothing to mid game team fights. Late game she finally has access to her damage but she still has major issues. For one her range is awful, as well as lacking any reliable dash or escapes, these things combined make her incredibly susceptible to cc and being dove and deleted in teamfights, even with excellent positioning.

One last thing I'd like to to make a mention of is how unreliable her damage is due to her inability to switch targets reliably.(character limit, continued in post below)

Stez00711/21/2014, 12:27:08 AM11 votes

Thanks for making her even weaker on non-SR maps. That REALLY helped.

Seriously, why not just disable her if you were going to go through with that time-based stacking nonsense?

Really disappointed that this concern was completely ignored. Starting to become very, very annoyed again. Your "communication" has been crap. Scampy said it better than I:

I still don't get why you want an evolve passive on Cass in the first place. I'm still hoping you'll realize it is pretty much universally despised, but I'm also becoming cynical enough as this process goes on to know I shouldn't hold my breath. Your whole "Oh don't worry, I just know better than you!" tone is coming across loud and clear.

Sir Tiddles11/21/2014, 2:08:42 AM10 votes

Stashu can you please stop with this late game single target Cass direction? I absolutely hate it, and it is never going to be as effective as an AD marksman carry, and her AoE damage is absolutely pitiful. Until your rework, she was an early game AoE mage. You changed every strength and weakness she had. That is not the tone of a rework, that is designing a new champion.

I don't care if she ever becomes viable in her hypercarry role if everything I loved about her for YEARS is gone. I loved her poisons, but now they are so weak 'because hey E does damage' that champs can ignore Q and W damage completely if they aren't accompanied by Es. It does not feel good to play a champ with only one powerful damaging ability.

I feel like you are completely ignoring this fact, and also ignoring that in the process you alienated a large dedicated Cass playerbase. I tried to like this rework. I really did. But I absolutely hate everything about the single target hypercarry role and I absolutely hate everything about all the power being crammed into E. Don't even get me started on the ridiculous stacking passive.

Not that I expect you will ever care or change her back seeing how it has been months since the rework surprise launched, but I want you to at least know that you took my favorite champion and removed all fun from playing her.

Canastus11/21/2014, 8:12:37 PM10 votes

I really wish CertainlyT would have been in charge of this rework, at least she'd have a free gapcloser, reliable point & click cc and no horrendous mana issues then. It's truly too bad that we're stuck with this outdated and gutted kit which will never function in a meta where champions like Kalista get released on a regular basis just to enforce mobility creep even more.

Stashu, since you're unwilling to deviate from your current concept, there's no point to talking with you anymore. Let me say it one last time: get rid of this godawful passive. Just do it. Prove to us that you're capable of listening for once.

Kowe The Ewok11/21/2014, 8:33:28 PM9 votes

There we have the same issue again..... More power shifted into her E... Q and W still remain unviable on their own, or even combined with each other...

The stack passive remains an incredible jump from 250 too 500....

Sigh, I just wished we could have the old Cassiopeia back. This is not Cassiopeia anymore, this is a gimmiky Veigar...

Tendrian11/20/2014, 8:29:58 PM9 votes

Definitely changes in the right direction, even though the poison amp on E seems pretty bandaid-y and doesn´t fix the underlying problems the rework has, while at the same time further contributing to the overload of mechanics funneled onto a single spell.

It´s also disappointing that there are still no signs of moving away from a stacking mechanic on Cassiopeia since, no matter how much you iterate it, it will never be a suitable passive for her.

Grand Eleven11/21/2014, 1:17:17 AM9 votes

The format this time will be a bit different than my other posts ... but hopefully it demonstrates my points a bit better so bare with me :)

If i boil the post down, you do a decent job in summarizing some concerns and outlining your goal for these changes. That said: the changes themselves are identical to the "old sticked thread". We are talking right down to the ratios. That thread has hundreds of posts with over 50 Rioter replies ... which means there's almost nothing that can be said on it that hasn't been said already.

That leaves me with almost nothing to comment on for the bulk of you post. The numbers are the same, we know the goals, we are left with very little to add beyond a "well lets just wait and see". This leads to me looking at things .. well ... extremely literally. And with that I find this:

know there are still many concerns, but let's let this shake out on live for a bit and see where she ends up, then revisit the conversation.

At this point I'm looking at a closed door. My chance for input is gone ... I have to wait for this to hit PBE ... then hit live ... then we can revisit where we are at. This cadence, to me, is irritating. It feels so slow that I already had time to articulate that feeling in another thread as well right here

So here I sit with a list of changes that have already been discussed, and a concern over pace that has already been discussed. I'm trying my best to keep things pushing forward, trying to leave my thumbprint if you will in a positive way and be that part of the community that makes this game awesome, and I'm irritated. Not that my ideas weren't jumped on (ok maybe a little, but I'm known to have an ego nearly as big as my di...display), but irritated that it at least appears that nobody's ideas were taken in.

OK, obligatory soapbox moment gone. Lets dig into that bit of content that IS new. Namely this:

Looking further into the future, hopes are to turn Aspect of the Serpent bonuses into more exciting, lateral-power points instead of super direct boosts to power which make it feel as if Cassiopeia can't be strong until 30 minutes into the game. There was some pretty serious brainstorming towards this end, and it was a huge help for thinking about where we could take the passive, and that was super awesome.

Is there any insight you can give into what ideas sparks the most promise to you? Yes: we will try to sway you in another direction if we think it's wrong ... but even those general glimpses are very valuable. At the risk of repeating what was said in other threads: I view the thematic consistency of Sion as the new bar. What does Cassiopeia say as a champion and how does she say it not only in imagery but as well as in kit and playstyle? How could these new power points add depth to her identity and not just be ... well .. stats? It forces us to ask:

Or to spin this another way: define Cass for us? If Sion is "unstoppable juggernaut", what is our Monster Girl to you/Riot? Get that definition out and lets see if that's what the kit says and if it doesn't, build a passive that does.

Elyviere11/20/2014, 10:14:34 PM9 votes

Out of a purely game design perspective, I'd love your insight on this response to your comment here

In regard to you talking about the 0 dodgeability from Miasma, I'd like to throw in a comparison to Ziggs E, as there are a lot of similarities between the two. They have roughly the same AoE (Miasma starts smaller, ends the same size), roughly the same slow (Miasma has 5% higher at all ranks), but the damage is in completely different leagues.

Ziggs single target damage caps at 700 + 150% AP, whereas Cassiopeia's damage caps at 270 + 90% AP. This is perhaps not a very realistic scenario though, since you won't even stand in a full Miasma just as you won't get hit by all the Ziggs bombs. Just looking at one bomb instead of all 11 though, it takes almost 5 seconds in Miasma to reach the damage from just one of the 11 ziggs mines. That's almost the entire duration of Miasma.

Now I have to say, I probably consider Ziggs E to be unfair rather than Cassiopeia's Miasma to be weak, but when you have two abilities this similar, they should at least be roughly equal, or have different tradeoffs in strengths. As is now, Ziggs seems to have all the power but none of the weakness (unless a tank voluntarily clears a path through Ziggs minefield to clear for his teammates, but that damage is HUGE!).

So, in order to equalize Miasma compared to Ziggs E, it should certainly have some strength that Ziggs E lacks. The only advantage I can find are a shorter CD (10 secs vs 16s) and the ability to hit multiple targets. I also considered the fact that it allows Cassio to follow up with her E for further damage, but similarly Ziggs minefield lets him follow up with his Q, so it didn't come to any affect. I also find the shorter CD to be equalized by Ziggs longer duration of his E (10s compared to Cass's 7s), instantly larger AoE (i.e. less counterplay) and the fact that nobody in their right mind would stand in Miasma for over 5s, and there is no cc that will lock down a target that long anyway. And even if the entire team of five people do decide to stand in Miasma for 5s, it still only does 1050 + 350% AP damage vs Ziggs damage of 1036 + 210% AP when he hits 5 targets with the minefield (getting hit by all 11 mines). Lets be fair here, the above situation is Completely unrealistic (an entire team will never stand in a miasma for five seconds), however Ziggs will be able to land most of, if not all of, his mines in a fight.

This in my mind shows that a much more powerful miasma would not be at all unreasonable, since there clearly already exists a similar ability that is considered balanced in the game.

Suggestions Now, in regard to improving miasma, I have the following suggestions for improvements (not all at once obviously). My favourite are definitely the changes that combine with the passive as they make both miasma and the passive more interesting.

Straight-up changes

  • Increased damage [so not interesting, please don't]
  • Better slow
  • Longer poison duration after leaving the area (2s --> 3s perhaps). [Not a big fan of this one, it lacks Clarity]
  • Increased AoE radius (preferably only increase either the original size [125] or the final size [250])
  • Have it reach maximum radius earlier, then stay there for a few seconds
  • Cooldown reduced slightly whenever E gets a reset cooldown. [Could potentially allow for multiple miasmas at once, which I just think seems fun, although potentially OP. Slow/Damage would potentially have to be lowered, depending on the CD reduction from E]

Passive-integrated changes

  • Start it with a lower slow (15%?) that goes up 5%/lvl, but then doubles when reaching x stacks of the passive (so at max rank with passive, 30% * 2 = 60% slow)
  • 50% increased radius upon reaching a certain amount of stacks
  • Allow for multiple stacks of miasma upon reaching certain points in the passive (like Azir's soldiers). Example: For every 100 stacks, allow for an extra miasma stack. (Would almost certainly require lower damage, radius and slow. Perhaps even increasing the duration for the poison to originally apply. This would help her with switching targets!)
Cadfan11/21/2014, 1:43:15 AM8 votes

Any chance we'll see a fix for the Desperada Cassiopeia skin? Because I'm still feeling like you guys stole a microtransaction from me.

The tail is not the same tail as the original. You guys didn't just update textures, you visually remade a skin after selling it to people without caring whether the result was similar to the original. Not cool.

I won't be playing Cassi until that is resolved, and if that means never playing her again, fine. I literally hate Riot every time I see the screwed up skin, and I'm a happier person if I just avoid it.

The Whamboozler11/21/2014, 2:40:12 AM8 votes

Honestly. If they want Cass to be a "spam E" champ now... that blows. I hate that kind of playstyle, but that's what they seem to want her to do. So why not scrap her Q ENTIRELY and make her a new one. Because right now ALL they do is give her passive stacks and let her spam E. It's like playing an adc and having to land a karthas Q sized skillshot or your auto attacks won't work. Her W never did much damage and was mostly a slow and a zoning tool. Her Q feels terrible now and there's very little use for it, so why keep it what it was? It used to be her primary poking tool. Now that she can't really poke with it, change it to something else that can grant her stacks of her lame new passive and maybe she won't feel so freakin terrible to lane as anymore.

I dunno if I'd pick her up again though. She plays like a really weak, overly complicated ADC who just happens to scale on AP instead. If I wanna play someone who plays like that, I'll just play an actual ADC and have a better kit for it, along with more pushing power.

Khell DarkWolf11/21/2014, 7:04:50 AM8 votes

Again, the passive is the center of the first problem and the major focus still tied into twin fangs. (Note: I'm going to post a rework suggestion in the next post under this)

We don't like the idea of being gated by an arbitrary mechanic so early to be useless to have to wait until a certain minute mark to become relevant.

It is no different then saying a rework for GarenGaren or Poppy Poppy and flipping their respective strengths during the early to late game.

Garen Garen while known for early game advantages is still a niche pick and while atm has some late game fantasy, there are ALOT more overwhelming number of champion matchups that bend him over then what the number of champions he can counter or thrive in an environment.

None the less, if you made him weak early like the current rework Cassiopeia and way better late game (like the cassiopeia rework that is claimed) I still would be upset.

Why? Because that wasn't the reason I picked up GarenGaren . I played him knowingly that I had certain early advantage cause that was his strength and its up to me to capitalize on that to outsmart and close the game.

Some people might say it takes no skill to play Garen Garen in this regard but this is an example.

As another example, lets take PoppyPoppy .

Lets propose that there "is" a rework, and its going to inverse her roles.

She has GREAT late game cause its what she is known for, but has such terrible terrible early game that the player has to just farm and wait it out.

Assume that the stance for the rework (cause I'm drawing similarities) for poppies rework is that she is too strong of a late game monster (lane bully comparison) so Riot is gonna make her a lane bully for the early game and have poor late game.

Anyone playing Poppy Poppy as their main and love her, won't like this rework. Because its not the reason why they love the champion in the first place.

The contrast is the same, Inversing the way a champion is played through a rework is uncalled for. Be it GarenGaren , PoppyPoppy , Or even a CassiopeiaCassiopeia player and that is what this rework has done.

If being a lane bully was SUCH a problem (which I highly doubt given the track record of the past season), it could have been achieved through number tweaks, lowered early base damages, lowered early scalings etc.

Instead we're given a knee jerk rework with a inversed time space of how the champion excelled at.

Saevum11/24/2014, 5:12:09 AM7 votes

Raging about Cassy's current condition wont help, just make a list of WHY the path currently taken has nothing to do with the previous bully-like-feeling kit (it wasn't bully, if you knew what Cassy could do or not do).

Old Kit regarding (this is for those who did not played old Cassy).

The passive played the center role, making the entire skills cheaper than they should be, and it wasn't op; there were conditions for this to happen.

Passive - 10% to 50% less mana costs on spells when you spam spells. **Q **- was meant to be spammable, also, being the best cost-effective skill of the entire kit (along with the passive i must say). W - was meant to be triggered (or used) after the Q triggered the passive enough to make W more cost-effective per use. E - Same story as W, but, this one was your main-dish-out-dps killing skill. High cost, but with a good passive synergy. There were conditions for this to happen and make it spammable too.

Old Gameplay regarding (inside an actual ranked game)

Game starts, you put a point in the Q (it was a rule). Poke, Damage and movement speed all in one. Low cost, along with the passive making it even more cost-effective.

You level 2! - you put a point quickly in her E (it was almost a rule too). And you proceed to duel your current opponent with a good dps dish out (for the level) plus a little ignite. Then you may harass, and/or deny farm, etc etc. Making enemy jungle guy do a mid visit. (This is the point where she was considered a lane bully).

The rest of the story its an 'Etc, etc'.

New Cassy - don't work. Thanks for reading.

j/k.

The New passive of New passive if i'm correct.

How's that? - No passive till stacks filled. Fun right? NO. Not fun.

Basically you start the game without a functional passive for the OLD kit. You cant mix water and oil. New passive? well, NEW KIT MAN that's the rule.

*Cassiopeia was meant to spam her abilities. Basic rule of her kit: new Cass runs out of juice too fast, i mean, TOO FAST.

So, if you don't creep score, you can't have the mana refund, then, if you poke, you can't have that mana refund neither. So... what's the problem? There's an enemy in front of you, that if you don't poke, he just end up out-poking you. And if that happens, you will end up with no stacks. Tricky right? is the mana the problem? - in a part yes, is the new cooldown the new problem? - of course! cause it wasn't there before! - are the stacks part of the problem? you begin with nothing like Nasus, so, i gotta say, Yes. OH, WAIT! SILLY ME! Nasus is not THAT squishy and he begins with a 10% life steal passive.

See the point? she's not a mid (anymore). Even Anivia starts with a passive. Even tho it may seem otherwise. Cassy is not a jungler (at all), she's not a support, nor anything in the current meta with the current competition against the current picks. Then, what is she? You can't place her in mid, she will lose the lane (in the hands of anyone), the team will rage, and the problems still go on. And even if she makes it to the late game (if there is a late game), some cc, gg, wp, bye bye.

And then, you login to LoL Boards, and a new thread is there (with a sign similar to): 'wah, wah, qq, buff buff, pls pls' title. Then you click it and guess what?

they're are talking about Cassiopeia's rework (and future reworks it seems) of the next patch notes, regarding about that champ, that used to be a good pick, it was still competitive (in good hands) and now its not, and its the Bread of the day by day Thread discussions. Its a fun trip over and over if you ask me (reading posts, then, playing her, then coming back to qq about it) etc etc.

Personally, i'm not here to QQ, but to say: new kit or new passive. To make her work and diminish the qq threads for a while.

Need ideas? WELL! YOU COULD HAVE STARTED WITH THAT! we ain't gonna tell you how to do what you do, but hey, listen opinions and suggestions to make this work. PPL MOSTLY WANT FUN. its a game! let's make a fun kit! and let Rito balance team do Rito balance team magic (we will argue/rage with them anyway, so, why delay it and suffer it yourself? - you're a kit designer, have fun like CertainlyT does).

So, now. Suggestion of passives (note: may need tweaks cause they're prototype version of whatever could may work):

1.Passive - Every 6 stacks, Cassiopeia extends her mana pool by 3%. Stacks are obtained by eliminating units. Counts as 6 stacks per champion kill.

2 Passive - Mana regeneration is increased by 0.3% every 3 minutes.

3 Passive - Gorgoneion eyes - As long as enemies are facing or closely in front of Cassiopeia, they start to get reduced movement speed, and attack speed by 45% per second (capped at 20%). (750930 range). Additionally, they suffer a (-10) magic resist reduction. (glowing eyes can be placed above champions. Similar to nidalee's traps)

4 Passive - All attacks poison, additionally, your mana pool is extended by +9 for each second a unit is poisoned.

5 Passive - All attacks deal poison, poison deals 0.2% of the target's current health as damage per second. Additionally, Cassiopeia build stacks according to the number of units she kills. Each stack provide 0.07% of mana regeneration.

Hope you like text walls.

Albireo11/25/2014, 11:17:53 AM7 votes

The problem of this whole thing is still the focus of it. There are just way too many champions in this game with good late game, than also are actually good early on. and are Safe... that's the main problem, the rework didn't change any mechanic than could allow her to actually use the damage she has.

Late game every mage in the game is strong, and could one shot a carry with a combo, even "utility mages" like Oriana, and she can do it from really far away, having CC. That's the problem she is in a weird sport where she needs to build up like an adc, function like an adc, but with mana problems, huge late power spike due her pasive, and without a lot of life steal, and mobility like newer ADCs, if she is going to be a late game sustain damage mage, Ok, give me tools to actually live thorugh that. Give me tools to at least survive lane phase against stuff like Yasuo, Fizz, Zed than can just "outplay" your ultimate really easily with ther kits.

Karthus still has his pasive, Ryze is still Ryze, and for the other mages with low cd on their primary skills, like oriana, syndra, ziggs, xerath, they have a burst easier to land, than Cass ult, to speak off, from a safe distance.

IceyDice11/25/2014, 5:51:00 PM7 votes

Cassiopeia is dead to me. You keep ignoring our feedback to make minor insignificant changes that ignore our main issue with her. I don't even care if you revert her back to her normal state, i'm never playing her again. So many other, better champs fill the niche you're trying to put her in and do a better job of it. There is no reason to pick Cass when there are so many other better late game hyper carries who are safer and have better tools.

Scarborough Fair11/20/2014, 8:35:10 PM6 votes

Also, change passive name to "Serpent's curse" aspect of the serpent is so bleh