@Riot let's talk Ashe please.

FuIlmute All·10/16/2014, 3:50:43 PM·27 votes·3,944 views

Now I've gone over each and every ADC's stats, and be that as it may that Ashe does indeed have the highest available AS per level, she by far has the lowest base AD AND AD scaling of every other ADC. each other ADC has at least 3 AD per level. Ashe is only 2.75. It may not seem like a big thing to some, but there is a reason why this is such a big problem for her.

I understand Ashe's core identity to be a neat, chilling archer girl that helps her team with pseudo initiating or follow-up initiate, followed by being able to slow any stragglers, but Ashe's real problem, and there's no real way to sugarcoat it or beat around the bush about it; she just plain doesn't do enough damage. I am fully aware that she get's a steady gold per level, and I don't mean to throw any other ADC's under the bus with me saying this, but Draven has a crazy gold passive as well; in way's technically almost never accessible if being shut down properly, but that isn't healthy gameplay either if the solution to a champion is for them to either never get a kill once, or hard carry the game through lane snowball. My point is just being that even Draven has a gold passive, but his damage is WAY higher than what Ashe's is.

Given that Ashe practically has no real damaging abilities, I was very surprised to find out she ALSO has the lowest AD per level of every other ADC. It just doesn't seem right. And for what kind of criticism for Ashe that I have seen in the past. It really does point to the same thing. She really, REALLY just plain doesn't do enough damage. I think Ashe's kit is pretty solid honestly. I've been a little upset about the passive before, but it's really not that big of a deal anymore. It has a neat niche that can be met at certain stages of the game. But anyways, I know your arguement would appear as something like this:

"Ashe does not have access to this type of damage because she is a very niche ADC with hyper-support qualities"

Given that I have already taken that into consideration the problem with ashe isn't her being less damaging than other ADC's, it's her being WAY LESS damaging than other ADC's. It feels like you're overcompensating for something that already has very clear, and easy at that, counterplay. It isn't hard at all to get Ashe behind, and not even her gold passive can really claw her back in to the game, given her stats AND damaging abilities are harshly too low.

I mean, even other ADC's than ashe fill similar, to almost the same qualities that Ashe does, but does heaps n loads more damage than she does. My biggest example being Jinx. She has a hypersteroid, very great scaling damage abilities, and a spread snare. Second being varus. Even he as well is not the upmost popular ADC either, he also packs a lot of cc in his kit, but his abilities do 'TONS of damage'

For what I could see to be a good change for Ashe in the future would be for her to get the fair 3 ad per level scaling treatment that at least ever other ADC has, and for maybe her volley to have a changed cooldown, and maybe even a mana cost reduction for her to throw it out a little more often, or maybe just even a bigger mana pool. Her mana pool really isn't even that big.

Something like the following would seem very fair for Ashe:

Ashe:

AD per level increased to 3 from 2.75

Volley: CD changed to 12/10/8/6/4 from 16/13/10/7/4

Damage changed to 35-.9AD/50-1AD/65-.1.1AD/80-1.2AD/95-1.3AD from 40/50/60/70/80 (1 AD)

Mana cost reduced to 50 from 60.

Changes like this for Ashe would be healthy, and not overhauled in any way. Obviously you don't have to take the full idea from me, but I would really like to just plain see a numbers change to Ashe in the future. Trust me, she really needs it.

Sincerely,

A Diamond, very-wanting-to-main-Ashe-or-at-least-would-like-to-play-her-more-without-risking-ELO... player

65 Comments

TehNACHO10/16/2014, 4:12:47 PM5 votes

Personally, I find Ashe's biggest problem is that her kit does not fit her archetype. The whole "Chilling archer girl that helps her team with pseudo initiating or follow-up initiate, followed by being able to slow any stragglers" sounds like a champion who's major impact on the game comes from their abilities. In other words, you'd think Ashe should be a Caster type ADC like that of Lucian or Ezreal.

I think Ashe needs to be reworked so that (ignoring her ult) she doesn't have literally 1 active battle ability. We can cut back on her scaling stats (AS) and buff her flat stats (AD) so it leaves a whole lot of power budget to emphasizing on her control based slow and lockdown abilities.

S0NA10/17/2014, 12:24:01 AM4 votes

Ashe is fine, just nonmeta.

If she gets going, she's unstoppable.

Everyone forgets that she is a Marksman SUPPORT which has some extreme benefits.

Fix her passive and we're cool.

FuIlmute All10/16/2014, 3:52:21 PM3 votes

Bumperino, Will be checking back at this against within about 5 hours. Hopefully this gets some notice and feedback by then.

AmazingGoat10/16/2014, 7:18:14 PM3 votes

I was watching the stream of an NA LCS player the other day and he was asked what keeps Ashe from being a competitive ADC. His answer was very simple: Mikael's. Take away Mikael's and Ashe has god tier engage.

At lower ELO, Mikael's isn't nearly as much of an issue, but it also isn't as easy to get your team to follow up an arrow engage.

Trylobyte10/17/2014, 1:45:15 PM3 votes

Problems I see with Ashe in the current meta and design of League:

  1. Her Frost Shot. It's a good skill, tantamount to a free Frozen Mallet caliber slow for just a piddling amount of mana. Why is it bad? Two reasons. One, she practically has to level Volley first to reduce its immense cooldown, making its use in lane questionable since it's a very weak slow at level one. Two, by the time she is able to put some levels into it, the rest of the team probably has so many better methods of CC (especially better Slows, since slows seem to be tacked on to nearly everything) that she doesn't really ever need to toggle it on.

  2. Her ultimate is great. It really is. That long stun is wonder-item 3222-FUUUUU-... It's rough to have such a great skill that is hard-countered by one item almost every support builds very quickly.

  3. When it comes to 'dealing damage,' which is the main reason ADCs exist these days, Ashe is pretty poor at it. She trades that damage for utility, which is a nice consideration but sorely out of the meta. The ADC in modern League exists to deal damage and kill things, not scout or initiate. That's what the other four people are for.

Sailor Mint10/16/2014, 4:13:53 PM3 votes

She's an ADC with a crazy good engage tool, something that is very powerful when it's in demand.

Off-meta and weak are two different things.

Desmond Law10/16/2014, 6:13:14 PM3 votes

Add to her ult "Ashe gains 10/15/20 AD per champion affected by Enchanted Crystal Arrow. (Duration: 10 seconds)"

TheRainInSpain10/16/2014, 6:51:11 PM2 votes

Ashe's problems:

  1. Many champions have a slow, speed up, or re-positioning tool, which nullifies Frost Shot quite a bit.
  2. Volley applies the same Frost Shot slow, and does not pass through units as Caitlyn's Q does.
  3. Hawkshot is just weak overall, with no real advantage to leveling it up first or second.
  4. The slow speed on Enchanted Crystal Arrow just makes me cry. Ezreal's Trueshot Barrage, Draven's spinning axes, and Jinx's Mega Rocket thing all move considerably faster.
  5. Passive is utterly stupid. Even in PRACTICE games I rarely get to utilize it more than five times every 50 minutes.

On top of that, Ashe has the lowest damage, damage scaling, and no escape ability unless you hit someone in the face with your ultimate. It's just pitiful. Sure, Ashe has a decent winrate, but that's because of professionals and Ashe mains, people who know Ashe inside out and can win with her.

Eawaf10/20/2014, 8:10:46 PM2 votes

@proXc This is part of the tradeoff of her being the only adc with a /support tag as well as a marksman tag. I'm fine with her suffering some damage loss to give her utility. This is a good thing.

I'm not for the homogenization of abilities, i don't want adc's to be the same. Niche roles are a thing. And they are a good thing imo. If ashe as an adc does not bring enough damage for the slot she takes as adc, then adjust the team comp to compensate for that.

tweaking some her abilities or base stats is fine, but changing fundamental abilities to her character i'm not for at all. Just make a new champ.

AbyssFlow10/16/2014, 6:06:26 PM2 votes

I think Ashe kit is completely garbage heres why. Ashe frost arrows at MAX rank slows for 35% which slows for 2 seconds.

1.Boots of swiftness reduce slow by 25% Defense mastery swiftness reduce slow by 10% Put both together 35% slow reduction amen you countered ashe kit which is kiting but she cant due to mostly due to reason 4. Also i just read PBE elixir changes one of them reduce slow effects by 25% holy balls.. say no more.

2.She has 0 escape skills which sucks due to reason 4. It is inexcuseable for a weak ADC that does medicore dmg late game aka worst scaling ADC. Only escape is her ult.

3.Her E is only useful for scouting i dont mind, but the passive is garbage make it useful like Quinn passive on her E that gives Atk Spd & MS steriod also has scouting active which the radius is bigger i believe. Lol

4.How is ashe viable nowadays where every single Assassin,bruiser,fighter,duelist and tanks also sometimes supports have a gap closer with CC or 100-0 combo. Which negates any possbility of kiting.

5.She needs a rework or tweaks they screwed any champ that rely on slows. I play her as support now and rush SotC.

PapaFizz10/16/2014, 11:53:22 PM2 votes

I brought this up before on the olde forums and the argument was: "You are an idiot, she has slows making it a guaranteed gank for your jungler".

I didn't like this argument you're so pitifully weak in lane that you REQUIRE several ganks in lane to have a chance to compete. And even then, her slows are pretty mediocre compared to a champion like jinx has a slow and a snare.

Maybe it gets better in higher elos and my concerns are arrogant but I'm glad other people share my sentiment (Whereas on GD I was downvoted to oblivion).

Kowe The Ewok10/17/2014, 1:44:31 PM2 votes

Different unrelated suggestions I liked: 1.) Auto attacks and Volley hits grant focus points. 2.) Focus gets reworked to amplify critchance when "Focus"sing a target (enemy). 3.) Every few its with active Q cause a short stun ( like Kennen) 4.) Her ult gets it's minimum duration increased 5.) Her ult gains suppression 6.) Her Q becomes a toggle to either grant extra damage every few hita or a slow. Het Volley is based on her Q and either slows (for chasing) or knocks back ( for kiting)

FuIlmute All10/16/2014, 4:25:18 PM2 votes

Even for what I have kept in mind for now, for the changes that I have proposed, Ashe has a very slightly weaker laning all-in early on, to be traded off for an actual, meaningful mid game.

FuIlmute All10/21/2014, 9:02:59 PM1 votes

bumperino

FuIlmute All10/22/2014, 2:01:52 AM1 votes

Roitpsl

FuIlmute All10/30/2014, 1:06:23 AM1 votes

Boomp

FuIlmute All11/7/2014, 2:44:00 AM1 votes

Bump

DEAXSA10/17/2014, 7:32:38 PM1 votes

They just need to rework the only useless ability she has, her passive, into a slightly more powerful than average ability. That way, she can stay the way she is, and yet enjoy a necessary power spike.

My suggestion would be to change her passive so that it does the following: -Gives her an ASPD cap of 1.0 (or just sets her ASPD to 1.0) -Lets ASPD scale as a damage multipler (or some variation of this) --only gives multiplier on a crit --only gives a portion of damage --gives the extra damage as magic damage

Also, it would be nice if the gold-giving passive also did something else. right now it's just a clairvoyance with a really, really long cooldown. maybe if it also gave her crit chance, or the CD was lowered, or something.

Mr Slowdeath10/18/2014, 1:59:07 AM1 votes

What if they fuse Frost Shot level 1 with Focus, making her basics attacks slow enemies like Sejuani does (or did, I haven't seen her kit in a while). At 100 stacks of focus you lose the slow and get a crit.

Then Ashe's Q. Active. For the next few seconds, whenever Ashe attacks a target that is slowed she gains 1/1/2/2/3 Focus stack(s) and flat/flat/flat/flat/flat armor penetration is applied to that attack.

EDIT: Oh yes, then her Volley will need a fix but I'm sure something can change there too. Like: If Ashe's Q NAME is active, Volley will slow enemies.

Boop Daddy 10/18/2014, 2:33:58 AM1 votes

It'd be cool if ashe's hawk did actual damage if it hits a champion. When she sends it out, if it sights a champion, it deals magic damage and returns to ashe bringing with it gold instead of the passive.

103percent10/18/2014, 4:12:05 AM1 votes

Hey hey now, Sivir would like to duel Ashe for the title of "WAY LESS damaging than other ADC's". At least Ashe get's free crits and a stun on her ult. Sivir gets... really fast feet. And mana back on her E.

More seriously though, of all the ADCs Ashe and Sivir are in pretty terrible spots as they are both classified as "utility" ADCs and thus for some reason are not allowed to get actual ADC abilities that involve scaling or AS steroids. At least Ashe gets proper AS/lvl.

DarksideEric10/18/2014, 5:18:22 PM1 votes

I've always wondered how her Frost Shot would work if it stole Movement Speed and gave it to Ashe rather than Slowed.

Like Malphite's Shard.

Then perhaps combo it with Volley (which would still Slow), which would provide one guaranteed Crit.

FuIlmute All10/19/2014, 10:33:56 PM1 votes

Bump

Mr Slowdeath10/19/2014, 11:27:36 PM1 votes

NOTICE: Please tell me if I should further explain these changes. TL/DR: Ashe prioritizes the safety of long range, moving her slowing ability down to second in priority.

I still think her current Q shouldn't be a standalone ability. I realize my last suggestion probably wasn't simple enough.

So here's something different (Passive doesn't force Ashe to build critical chance. Ashe's Q is now Varus's Q Piercing Arrow but as a basic attack):

Passive - Frost Shot

If Ashe has not attacked in the last 3 seconds, she gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 Frost stacks per second. At 100 stacks, Ashe will critically strike on her next basic attack, slowing the target for a duration. Thereafter, Frost stacks will reset to [b]a flat amount[/b] + half of her critical strike chance.

Q - Focus Active: Ashe begins channeling her next basic attack, gradually increasing the range of that attack over the next 2 seconds, and the percentage of damage that attack deals. Starts at 60% damage dealt and gains 20% damage dealt for each second of channel for a maximum of 100% damage dealt.

Ashe can still move while channeling, use her other abilities, and her movement speed is slowed by 20%. After 3 seconds, Focus is automatically cancelled, going on full cooldown.

SECOND CAST: Focus is manually cancelled, going on half cooldown.

W - Volley Quite possibly doesn't slow anymore. Maybe it gives Ashe flat movement speed for each enemy hit, instead?

FuIlmute All10/20/2014, 5:18:42 PM1 votes

Bump btw

Eawaf10/20/2014, 6:39:30 PM1 votes

@proXc congrats, you just turned her q into varus q

Samflash310/20/2014, 7:02:04 PM1 votes

I agree 100%. Also, I thought they'd fix her passive. Many times i've lost the passive stack early game because I attack and the minion dies or I attack and cancel the attack because it takes too long to fire the attack. So i have to stand still until I see the arrow fly out while taking damage from ADC's or wait a long time until I can get a stack.

Please buff ashe. Freelo Lissandra is having way too much fun killing her. #GuttheFreeloWitch

Eawaf10/20/2014, 7:05:01 PM1 votes

@proXc I'm against changing her q from being a permaslow. That is the basis of her character. I'm not opposed to changing her E to some form of damage skill but her Q is the most important part of her kit imo, might as well remake the champ if your going to change it to function entirely different.

Her Q and her R are what give her the marksman/SUPPORT tag. She is not meant to do as much damage as a hypercarry, she is meant to synergize well with another damage dealer on her team to get picks and kite.

Sire Hippington10/20/2014, 7:10:37 PM1 votes

The volley-buff would be a bit extreme. it'S already very underrated, 1.0total ad on huge aoe with slow and very low cd is pretty strong. A small buff like less manacosts would be ok, but uping basedamage by 15 and ratio by 0.3 would be pretty massive in the late.

anyway, i think the main point to buff ashe would be changeing her passive, it simply feels very underwhelming as it is. Telling an adc to not attack in oder to benifit from his passive is pretty horrible.