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The problem with Gnar is obvious...

mk DILLY·8/25/2014, 10:23:32 PM·18 votes·4,038 views

Gnar has been out almost 2 weeks now and still has a 41% win rate (lower in higher ranks). Looking at the buffs, Riot still seems clueless as to why. A big clue to his core problem is that currently, the only people having success with Gnar are people who build him pure tank (which isn't how most people want to build him, as it's not as fun).

Why is pure tank the only viable role? Why does he feed if he builds almost any damage?

Because Gnar's defensive scaling (the worst in the game) combined with his range (the worst for a ranged champion in the game) is just plain ridiculous and fundamentally doesn't work on a champion.

If by chance you don't believe me, lets put things in perspective, shall we? Here is Mini-Gnar's base defensive stats at level 18:

Mini-Gnar at Level 18 1600 HP 64 Armor 485 Range (400 at level 1)

Now, lets take a few characters like Caitlyn and Graves for a counter example. Caitlyn has significantly more range, a trap-based root, and a good escape with her net. She is a MUCH, MUCH safer champion than Gnar. As a shorter ranged ADC, Riot thought Graves would need slightly better defensive stats to make him viable, so he should compare better with Gnar. And yet, here are their level 18 stats:

Caitlyn at Level 18 1830 HP 80 Armor 650 Range

Graves at Level 18 1922 HP 76.6 to 106.6 Armor (depending on his passive stacks) 525 range

Significantly more than Gnar! Why? How does this make sense? Are you starting to understand why Gnar sucks?

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! Gnar and Caitlyn are not really comparable. Gnar was designed to be a top lane bruiser, not an ADC! So, lets take a look at a few champions that are more similar: Kayle, Nidalee, and Jayce.

These champions are top-laners/mid-laners. They also swap between ranged and melee modes like Gnar (almost at will, unlike Gnar). They all have longer range, are all highly mobile, and have better tools to stay alive as well (i.e. Nid and Kayle's heal, Jayce's hammer disengage, Nid's uncatchable cougar form, etc.).

And yet, here are their stats at level 18:

Jayce at Level 18 2040 HP 93 Armor 500 Range

Kayle at Level 18 2092 HP 84 Armor 525 Range

Nidalee at Level 18 2010 HP 93 Armor 525 Range

HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE? NOW DO YOU SEE WHY GNAR SUCKS? He literally can't get in range to do damage without being bursted!

And how am I supposed to fight another lane bully like Nidalee or Jayce when they not only have hard engage, but they are significantly tankier than me for no reason? I have to drastically outplay them for no other reason than they can out trade me even if I hit them more! Even funnier, despite having much lower defensive stats, Gnar also has much lower AD at 18 than every one of these champions, including Caitlyn!

Riot, this is just plain ridiculous. There is literally no reason for this gross lack of stats on Mini-Gnar. Gnar will never be viable as anything other than a pure tank unless you either give him much better defensive stats or longer range. It's just a fundamental truth to the game.

If you really want to keep him similar for some reason, here's a suggestion: how about giving him increased range that scales with his bonus AD/AP? You could also give Mega-Gnar increased speed and possibly jump length that scales with his bonus AD/AP, allowing him to be safer and not get blown up as a carry.

TL;DR: Gnar's core problem is his ridiculous and inexplicable defensive scaling combined with his range - which most people don't realize how ridiculous it is. He has significantly lower health, armor, range, sustain, and escape than any other similar champion in the game, such as Jayce, Nidalee, Kayle, and even much longer ranged, safer ADC's like Caitlyn (see above for the shocking numbers). A champion like this fundamentally cannot work because the moment he gets in range to do damage, he can be instantly bursted. This is why the only people currently having success with Gnar build full tank. Riot must buff his defensive stats to make damage builds viable or make his mini-gnar range and possibly mega-gnar speed scale with bonus AD/AP.

37 Comments

Deep Terror Nami8/26/2014, 1:36:16 AM8 votes

Why no Mega-Gnar stats? You can't compare him to other champs and just leave out the entire thing that makes him Gnar. The reason mini-Gnar is weak is because Mega-Gnar is strong; I can smell the bias from a mile away. Could you please include the same stats for his transformation so we can actually compare?

Trylobyte8/25/2014, 11:25:27 PM6 votes

My problem with Gnar is that no matter how I'm playing him, roughly 50% of the time he's something I don't want him to be. If I try to play him as a ranged harasser or pseudocarry, I will eventually be forced to go melee when I go Mega-Gnar unless I back off and wait the Fury bar out. If I want to be a close-in bruiser, I still need to spend time as the fragile, squishy Mini-Gnar to build up to it. And it's not like I can easily pick and choose when and what I want to be, and for how long - I'm forced into the split role, and the better I do in one role the faster I change into the role not suited for it. If I'm laying a ranged beatdown as mini-Gnar I will eventually be forced into Mega-Gnar who doesn't do that half as well because he's not ranged. If I'm tanking and peeling as Mega-Gnar I'm not building up the fury I need to stay in that form and I'll revert to mini-Gnar. It's like playing Nidalee with a cat randomly pressing my R key.

IAmNeverViable8/26/2014, 1:14:14 AM4 votes

Very well detailed argument of gnar. Upvoted

World Eaters8/26/2014, 9:04:48 AM2 votes

What I would like is just a little bit of control over his passive such as a trinket to give him 30 rage to make surprise turn arounds I could handle it a little bit better but he dies before you can even utilize his mega form

Guy Fox Teemo8/26/2014, 1:12:26 AM2 votes

The core reason gnar is a bad champion is cause hes inconsistent, like lets say you do extremlly well in and go like 8 and 1, soon as mid game hits you can't carry, you'll just somehow fall off or get kill easily, hes inconsistent cause of lack of control he has to switch forms, lets say a team fight starts, and you just run out of being mega gnar, now your just some squishy short range squishy champ (preety much jsut a crappy adc) and do nothing, the only times team fights work out for him if somehow he gets lucky and his rage bar fills right up as team fight starts, but then again the enemy team can see your rage bar and just back off wait for mega gnar to run out, then when it does engage again...

Rhyto8/26/2014, 4:20:53 PM1 votes

I find Gnar to be an opportunistic champion, while he does indeed turn into a giant for 15 sec his mini-form is actually pretty good because of his 3 hit procs like Vayne however he is very squish like you described. If him having armor is a problem then maybe switch to more damage, I haven't tried him as an ADC yet and I think it could work, especially since his E allows him to hop away and he has Flash in case. His Q is like Sivir's and can move around, and his ult would require him to be useful, so in the end he's considered a Hybrid of either being a Tank up top or possibly an ADC down Bot with the Mega-Gnar effect.

Orbit the Sun8/26/2014, 4:48:05 PM1 votes

Mini-Gnar's late game base stats are low because you have to build at least bruiser anyway to last any second when you transform into Mega. But he has very high ratios especially in Mega form so I think it balances it out, compared to champions like Jayce or Kayle who have to build almost solely damage to deal meaningful damage (Nid is just pretty ridiculous atm).

But Gnar's strengths right now in Mini form just isn't apparent enough, while Mega's form weakness is very overwhelming. Mini Gnar is fast sure, but a squishy Vayne-like low-ranged fighter who does minimal damage is good for nothing but kiting. If the enemy team is full of melee fighters then maybe, but one good burst mage or assassin is able to kill him easily (this is why he has to go tank). And when he's finally Mega people can simply back off and wait it out, it's too slow, it's easily predictable, it's not hard to kite it and it's never up when you need it.

One more problem is that if you just roamed down from top lane or base to help with mid game dragon fights you will never be able to start the fight with mega form which is the only thing you can offer at the beginning of the fight. Instead when the fight breaks out you have to sit there like a duck and auto while people ignore you and your mobility because you deal horrible damage anyway, and when you get to mega your team is already running away since it was essentially a 4v5. If you jump in you get killed and die.

I feel like by the time Gnar hits 6 he should have a separate ult from his Mega one that instantly transforms him to Mega since right now he's just pretty bad strategically and overall a reliability.

Cardbox frog8/26/2014, 5:55:40 PM1 votes

Just showing numbers or talking about complicated match-ups does not prove why Gnar has design problems. As far as I was aware, Gnar was designed to lane-bully melee champs like Gragas, Garen, Maokai or Renekton; so he having problems against the likes of Teemo or Kayle (ranged lane bullies) makes a lot of sense.

I am not saying that Gnar lacks design flaws, while I like the idea of making transformations less reliable, I think Rito went too far. There is a huge difference between "less control than Nidalee's 6 skills" and "no control at all totally random godzilla!".

But your approach to this is totally flawed. Gnar sucks, here you have the longest ranged adc and the highest defense adc and his miniform is inferior yar yar yar... sorry but no.

Catbat8/26/2014, 7:07:25 PM1 votes

Umm... I go ad bloodthirster gnar and do well...

SkillerFiftyOne12/27/2015, 11:34:52 PM1 votes

You're forgetting one thing. Mini-Gnar's Q. With Mini-Gnar's Q at level 18 you have almost no cooldown at all. That coupled with his ability to escape and you have a great kiter. Mini-Gnar isn't designed to be weak, he is designed to be extremely good at kiting and escaping. Which he is If you actually use his Q instead of just auto-attacking, which he isn't meant to do.

Angry Monster8/26/2014, 1:23:48 AM1 votes

Build Tri force and CDR. It allows you to build tank and do insane amounts damage. You bonus damage becomes base when mega.

You really are playing the champ wrong.

67chrome8/26/2014, 4:00:11 AM1 votes

Gnar has been out almost 2 weeks now and still has a 41% win rate (lower in higher ranks). Looking at the buffs, Riot still seems clueless as to why.

He's a new champion.

You're reading way to far into this.

Pretty much every new release for the past 2 years started in Karma tier or Evelynn tier before that. It takes a considerable amount of time for the win rates to even out, and Gnar just became a free week champion. Only champions I can remember running away with a 50%+ win-rate on release were Diana and Zyra. Elise, Yasou, Rengar, Syndra, Lucian, Jayce, and Quinn weren't doing to hot on their release. Some of those champions got nerffed considerably since their release state due to how dominant they are in the pro scene. Lee Sin and Orianna were widely regarded as under-powered by the community upon their release as well.

So, calm your tits. His current win rate being 41% only means he's not disgustingly overpowered.

TypeOPositive8/26/2014, 9:23:46 AM1 votes

As many stated here the problem with Gnar is that 50% of the time he's not something you want him to be. His transformation is counter productive. It's like Jayce switching to hammer-time every X seconds. It doesn't allow you to make plays - cause they know you're gonna go full rage-beast so they'll simply back away and wait for you to be squishy again - or to have a reliable ultimate you can use. He could be easily fixed if he was allowed to transform when he has 100 rage - like Shyvana for example. At the moment it's really annoying chasing somebody down only to transform into a lumbering beast that has two speeds: backwards and standing. Yes Mega-Gnar is strong and can take a beating - but you have limited control of when you're Mega. And your team cannot look to you as a reliable tank.

IMHO giving Gnar control over his transformation will make him so much more fun to play.

AbodyHUN6668/26/2014, 10:35:32 AM1 votes

I feel like they should let you attack while jumping or get some reward if you jump on an enemy champion because I can't really pump on an enemy with lower health as they just burst me with their combo

SSANTOY118/26/2014, 6:39:57 PM
                                   ![Gnar](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/champion/Gnar.png)            I DO FINE AS GNAR WITH NO DEFENSIVE STATS