Grievous Grievances

TheSandQrator·3/11/2017, 12:06:32 PM·46 votes·3,694 views

There is already a rather recent post that raises some very good points on this topic, but I thought that I would bring my two cents to the table, especially as there is an upcoming rework regarding defensive champions and/or stats.

Let me start out by saying that I actually believe that Grievous Wounds does actually have a valuable place in the game: to deal with how overbearing some champions' sustain can be.

DrMundo Nasus Olaf Swain Vladimir Warwick A few of the main offenders that come to mind when a team curses their mid-laner for not taking ignite.

Draven + item 3072 Akali + item 3146 Yet we also forget. Grievous Wounds also has its uses against people with remarkable sustain from outside sources.

For years, I have seen time and again, an attitude along the lines of "it doesn't feel good to have all that effort you put into bursting down someone's healthbar, negated". Yet, in most circumstances it is incredibly telegraphed and to be expected, from the pick alone, in a vacuum, without items. Never mind with items. In most instances, huge amounts of sustain is built into a champion's kit, and a lot of the time, champions with heavy sustain are picked, in part, for their innate, heavy sustain.

You're not too surprised when Vladimir heals for a heck of a lot because he wasn't burst down before he got off his Crimson Rush-empowered Transfusion, or his Hemoplague expired. You're not too surprised when Dr. Mundo careens away on low HP with Sadism active, only to come back a few seconds later well above half health. You're a little surprised that Draven is healing so goddamned much, but then you realise he's 21/3 and is skewing your data.


A point I see rarely raised when Grievous Wounds is discussed, is: it's unpleasant when you pick someone who is meant to have survivability mainly through sustain, only for that to fold in on itself once you were afflicted with Grievous Wounds. Yes, it's very, very possible to feel absolutely helpless when you just can't seem to make any damage stick, which in the past was solved by a team making a concentrated effort to fully burst down someone with massive sustain. You can't afford to let all that damage go to waste.

This led to an expression of skill, from the player playing the sustain champion. They had to be able to soak up enough damage that they could safely heal off without dying, and be able to get out, to heal up, and come back in for round two. Or three. Teamfights used to actually last a measurable length of time.

That can't happen anywhere near as much as it used to, now. (And not entirely just because of high damage.)


Before, Grievous Wounds really only was obtainable from two viable choices, of three:

item 3165 Morellonomicon: Gated, to be a reward, almost, for managing to overcome sustain enough to finish the job comparatively easily. summoner 14 Ignite: Instant, but gated by a (comparatively) long, long downtime. item 3123 Executioner's Calling: Easily applied, just an auto-attack. But, let's be real. Nobody really remembered, or bothered, to buy this. So much so, it was gone for almost a full year.

That changed. With the introduction of a new item (and the re-introduction of one removed).

item 3123 The re-introduction of the Executioner's Calling. item 3033 The creation of the Mortal Reminder.


There was also a subtle change. But a very, very noteworthy one. Grievous Wounds now is applied on physical damage from these items. Not from an auto-attack hitting. The Grievous Wounds received from someone wielding the Executioner's Calling duration was also doubled from 1.5 seconds to 3 seconds. The Mortal Reminder inflicted it for five.

Yes, the healing was reduced by less, and initially only affected self-healing, but that changed to affect all healing.

Thanks, Obana(na). Soraka

It was now very, very easy, to have a one-hundred percent uptime on Grievous Wounds. Not at the cost of a summoner spell, or investing enough resources to put them on a worrying amount of HP. You just needed to be hit, once, by the right person. This is very easily achieved, especially when you consider who the item is mainly targeting. Marksmen. Ranged auto-attackers.

You can probably understand my confusion when this happened. Four of them. Four Mortal Reminders. And a Morellonomicon. On the enemy team. In one game.

Despite having become pretty ridiculous, the enemy team didn't have to invest much time or effort into quite heavily crippling my efficacy. (This is in part due to them ignoring 162 points of armour, approximately 3.2k gold. I, admittedly, should have invested more in raw HP. But that is not the point I wish to discuss.)

If our Aatrox, or I, fought with any of them, even the support, our ability to sustain would have been crippled, and it would have been far more risky to fight anyone in case a second person, or more, showed up. Almost any damage from four of their members would have inflicted, or refreshed, the five-second debuff. Two of our team were almost always on the back foot because of it.

While it was only a single match, it made me realise just how potent the Mortal Reminder's passive was.


800g for a pretty guaranteed, constant, 40% healing reduction is a steal. For the low, low price of harassing every couple of seconds. This window gets two-thirds longer after you build it into an item that's pretty decent in its own right. It's not unreasonable to hit someone once every five seconds in a fight.

A problem that Riot have stated before, is that they hate binary gameplay.

We've seen Annie quite Ryze a few Soraka champions Jax who have Diana been Pantheon lambasted for their all-or-nothing gameplay before.

And that's what's wrong with Grievous Wounds. You're screwed by it, or you're not. There used to be a ramp-up time (getting them to 35% HP for Morellonomicon to kick in), or a window where it wasn't available to them (Ignite was on cooldown).

One of a few things can be done with Grievous Wounds (aimed mostly, but not entirely, towards the Executioner's Calling/Mortal Reminder):

  • Reduce the up-time on Grievous Wounds from the Executioner's Calling/Mortal Reminder.
  • Make Grievous Wounds only apply as an on-hit effect from the Executioner's Calling/Mortal Reminder.
  • Reduce the efficiency of the flat healing reduction.

Or, preferably:

  • Change the mechanic to apply stacking levels of healing reduction, instead of a flat percentage. (It's Grievous Wounds, after all. Not Grievous Wound.)

After thinking on it for a little time, I have put together a little spreadsheet with some example numbers and paradigms.

I believe that the final method would be arguably more fair towards the sustain champion, while not eclipsing its usability for the player who purchased it. (Let's face it. You forgot that Varus applies it using Hail of Arrows, and that Katarina's Death Lotus also applies it.) Because of its ramp-up time, it would eventually reach almost the same, if not better, reduction in healing. This would reward consistent aggression from the players wielding it, yet at the same time rewarding the sustain champions with renewed healing abilities if they are able to play around it enough to allow it to expire. (Think of it as another minigame. We don't have enough of those yet.)

With Riot taking a look at defensive ability, along with the upcoming Tank Class update, I hope that they realise that there's more to "tankiness" than raw resistances, or mitigation. Oftentimes, sustain is immediately more visible and appreciable than resistances.

It's hard to see just how much a champion's resistances affect your incoming damage from moment to moment. But it's very easy to see that they're going to be a bit more difficult to take down than you may have thought, if their health bar keeps ticking up.

I really don't want them to leave that by the wayside.

41 Comments

togapika3/11/2017, 3:55:12 PM33 votes

I expect DrMundo and Vladimir to heal, I don't expect Yasuo to be able to have 1 lifesteal item and heal more then 2-3 people can damage him

ValyrianBlade3/11/2017, 2:40:21 PM6 votes

You were a (really) fed Nasus, who also happened to have an Aatrox and a Caitlyn (she only had Vamp Sceptre but may have had warlords and anyways was obviously going to get to BT) on the same team.

A team should not be going triple lifesteal and expecting the enemy to not react. All 5 members having grievous wounds was really an appropriate response.

That was more a failure of team comp than grievous wounds being OP or sustain being not as useful. A big value of sustain is that it forces investment in grievous wounds. You're forcing multiple members of the enemy team to invest in an item to deal with 1 member of your team. It's like how a Malz forces multiple QSS purchases to deal with his ult - it's most effective when the enemy team has a lot of champions that don't want QSS but now need it. That completely goes away when they all want it for other reasons too.

As for healthiness? It's still there really. You would have been fine as Nasus against any of them 1v1 (or possibly 1v2). It wasn't grievous wounds that stopped you, it simply prevented you from having 1v5 potential. Which you shouldn't have. They can play properly around you and kite you and kill you, and the grievous wounds just means they have to not make a positioning mistake for 10 seconds to kill you and not get killed rather than being flawless for 20 seconds (where a mistake would then lead to you getting even more kills and healing faster and faster relative to the damage being thrown at you).

To me, this argument is really no different from an all AD team whining that the enemy team has 3 tanks that all stacked huge amounts of armor, and their ADC and APC even bought item 3143 . It's a fault of team comp - armor isn't miraculously OP just because you happen to have an all AD team.

Helmight3/12/2017, 7:42:44 AM3 votes

I honestly just want Grievous Wounds removed from the game. Right now they're a must-have because of the massive sustain that champs like Vlad and Mundo have, but the only reason Vlad and Mundo have so much sustain is because they have to be gated around the presence of GW. If they were removed, it'd be easier to reduce their healing to an appropriate level and make them less binary.

Troll for Trump3/12/2017, 4:49:54 AM3 votes

Im fine with Grevious wounds countering other items.

Items counter other items is nothing new; you always built armor vs AD and MR vs healing.

However, it's bad when grevious wounds limits a part of a champion's kit. Just buying the item can make them almost useless.

Just as there was an unhealthy relationship with Vlad and Spellvamp, where they were in a constant deadlock, the same is between grevious wounds, and all champs that are reliant on innate sustain.

You shouldn't be able to buy an item to counter abilities.

Zhonyas, QSS, Banshees, and Edge have all been nerfed for doing that.

Red trinkets and Duskblade have been nerfed so they don't make traps useless (teemo)

They didn't nerf tenacity(besides zephyr removal), but instead increased cc in the game.

Spoofghoul3/11/2017, 10:02:30 PM2 votes

grievous wounds should be an on attack effect because item 3085 / item 3074

i also think it was a msitake for an item like morellonomicon to have grievous wounds since its the core item for every ap champ . .

same with lastwhisper for adc

notawinner3/11/2017, 12:56:59 PM2 votes

Well thought out, fair points made all around. The only thing i worry about is the fact that Riot just nerfed warlords, so they may think that this issue can take a backseat, althouh it is important in and of itself

Woodakoodashooda3/11/2017, 1:19:45 PM2 votes

Healing is an incredibly effective and oppressive mechanic and has proven so effective that even Soraka's ultimate was nerfed so that it could no longer remove grievous wounds.

Grievous Wounds neither increases damage dealt nor negates healing altogether. It merely reduces the effectiveness of healing and not even by half because Grievous Wounds itself was nerfed from 50% heal reduction to 40% heal reduction.

Investing in Grievous Wounds is an investment of gold that could be invested elsewhere. The fact players are obligated to purchase it to combat heals (regardless of the source) is, itself, a testament to how powerful healing is.

Oh, and the example you shared of how it required multiple people to execute a well coordinated attack just to eliminate a single enemy over a period several seconds is less of an argument against grievous wounds as it is an argument against healing. No single champion in the game should survive more than 5 seconds against a group attack unless they are far ahead and generously fed. The fact healing ever allowed a champion to do so regardless of player skill only proves that measures needed taken against healing.

Alesya3693/11/2017, 3:04:07 PM2 votes

There have been many threads made on reddit and boards about the retarded state of GW over past 8 months but none of these had a rioter response. They even hit front pages but noone seems to give a fuck.

58697132DEL13/11/2017, 7:10:29 PM2 votes

Upvoted for mentiong the AD answer to healers. Like buy t hat lil gold sword and now ALL your AA's cripple healing how do they not buy it???????

Clementine3/11/2017, 7:16:00 PM2 votes

Morello's gives too many stats for too low of a price imo

Lord Galvatron3/12/2017, 5:22:32 PM2 votes

Making things have a Grevious wounds like effect and diversifying that would be super cool. That would make the whole Heal vs. Grevious wounds less binary and would be healthier overall. (ex: Champs that have mini-grevious wounds in their kit or life steal reductions).

That being said, one issue I have is that Dr. Mundo NEEDS healing. Before Riot does anything, they need to give him % Grevious wounds resistance in his kit (Passive, W, or R). He's too reliant on healing to ever be good with Grevious wounds existing in AD and AP items. I love him, but he's sooooooooo useless when you get ignited or someone has Mortal Reminder.

ZT Xperimentor3/14/2017, 11:25:10 PM1 votes

Squishes surviving significantly more focus than tanks due to lifesteal, is disgusting.

darkavi3/12/2017, 3:40:52 AM1 votes

😏