Boards›Gameplay

Why Are Karma Players Upset about the Phoenix Video?

SilverSquid·10/9/2019, 10:13:47 PM·59 votes·18,806 views

I know I tend to write too much. TL;DR BELOW

I know I have been silent for quite a while now, but I didn't feel like saying the same things over and over again. However, I did of course see those: The Awaken video, the absolutely rational Q-Nerf and now the beautiful Phoenix trailer. Which made me wonder:

WHY AREN'T KARMA FANS HAPPY?

When seeing the animations I expected the Karma community to rejoice. Karma didn't get an appearance in outgame media since... ever and the community was surely vocal about it. Now we saw her TWICE in nearly half a year in high quality and awesome videos, but the community isn't happy? Why not?

At first glance it seemed hippocritical. For years, they loudly demanded attention and now that they got it, they still complain. But the more I thought about it, the more sense it made: The animations aren't the point. Never were. If you have trouble understanding this, like I did, picture this:

There is a child, whose father works a lot. The child feels neglected, so he rages and cries every night that he isn't there. Desperately his mother pleads to the father, asking him to do something. As a sign of good will the father spends his hard earned money to buy his son a brand new gaming console. But then, of course, never comes to play. The kid's rage and sadness persists, even while holding the very controller his father bought.

Would you be confused if the child wasn't happy, even in the face of such a valuable present? It got something, but not what it asked for. Love. Sure, the Karma community & Riot are very different from a father & his child, but my point is: Asking for attention and getting shiny presents instead will leave you dissatisfied.

WHAT THE KARMA COMMUNITY NEEDS

My answer: Clearance. Karma has been somewhat of a clusterfuck ever since her creation. She used to be unpopular since her creation in Season 1 and had abysmal winrates. But she also had potential. And the few people who liked her loved her so much they are still talking about it years later. Her relaunch in Season 3 modernized her spells and threw half her identity under the bus (most likely due to Riot not being that good with reworks yet) Another "update" in Season 5,a few changes since then and I think Riot fell into a trap I usually only see authors fall into: They reworked themselves into a corner.

You see, every "version" of Karma was enjoyed by different people. And ever version was played in a dozen different - often inefficient, but fun - ways. There is no way of telling whose love for her is most justified, but Riot tried improving her and created new versions... A similar thing happened to LeBlanc some time ago, but could be somewhat fixed by a quick revert. Karma's chasms, however, are now too old and plentiful to do that...

Still, the community NEEDS clearance and coherence, and I think Riot agrees.

That's why, roughly a year ago, they allowed NeuroCat to try and rework her. I had the honor of following her journey along in a Discord group and witnessing her struggle. This amazing person that cared about Karma more than any Rioter I had seen before. She tried to please everyone... and ended up pleasing no one. They gave her MONTHS to work on Karma and in the end, the time&money was wasted. I couldn't blame Riot if they just threw up their hands and said "Well, what the hell are we supposed to do?!? She was the best we had??? Fuck it, we'll work on other things for now.".

This stings a bit - I must admit - but it's probably close to the truth. But there's another reason why Karma should be touched, which has nothing to do with egocentric views:

CREATING COHERENT CHAMPIONS

In an ideal world, every champion has a role in League. Karma... doesn't. You don't have to be a genius to see that Karma is somewhat bland thanks to her Jack-of-all-Trades kit. If a character can do everything, she can't be good at anything, right? And if she ever is, she pushes someone else out of their well deserved niche, who bought that space with fair weaknesses. I think it's reasonable to argue, that Karma, in a way, will always threaten healthy characters if only number juggling is supposed to keep her in balance.

Let me get this straight:

  • Karma's passive will ALWAYS be a problem, as long as it's just simple cooldown per enemy hit,
  • because it rewards only half her kit, which makes the relation to the other half awkward af.
  • Karma's RQ will ALWAYS be a problem, as long as it's her only damage mantra,
  • because having most of her kit's damage in a single explosion makes it either too strong for 1 ability or her kit too weak.
  • Karma's RW will ALWAYS be a problem, if the scaling isn't reworked,
  • because it either is unusable for Mage Karmas or borderline broken on Tank Karmas
  • Karma's RE will ALWAYS be a problem, if her whole kit only works to reapply it,
  • since repetitive shield+speedbuffs are both boring to watch/use and can barely be countered.

Those are inherent to her kit, which I think is unfair to burden the Life Balance Team with. The recent Q-nerf and hasty explanation seems like them throwing the towel, tbh. "We don't know anymore, let's just kill her before she ruins LCS, okay? Okay..."

I honestly think she NEEDS a rework. But of course everyone wants their own champ to get the most attention. So I don't wanna be a parrot and scream "REWORK PLZ, REWORK PLZ" and at least scream something more sophisticated "USE MY REWORK PLZ" Which, admittedly, puts me morally around 2 microinches above those parrots, but hey, at least I am trying to contribute.

SOME SUGGESTIONS

For those who know me, I probably don't have to repeat what I want for Karma, but since a lot of time has passed, I think I ought to at least summarize for newcomers:

  1. I believe that RQ needs to be a ground targeted spell (think Lux E) to make Karma more reliable to play and more reasonable to play against (it should more often land where Karma intends to, but can be dodged through/escaped from, giving it more counterplay).
  2. I believe that RW needs to be a flat heal that scales STRONGLY with low hp - instead of being based on missing % hp - to keep it usable for toplaners while making it more reasonable for midlaners and allowing it to be easier to balance.
  3. I believe W needs a simple ally function, to give support Karma more agency, while not pushing too much power into her kit (simple resistances and a shared RW heal would suffice).
  4. I believe that EVERY mantra option needs damage in it. This lifts the damage burden from RQ, allows Karma to gain back her signature spell (shieldbomb), while giving her more creativity in all her roles/lanes.
  5. I believe that shieldbomb, as introduced in 3.5, is healthier than the current version, evidenced by the fact, that RE has only ever become a balance issue since the damage was removed in 5.10
  6. I believe that in a world of damage/CC supports and protection/CC supports, there could be a niche for a damage/protection support, which is why I think the huge root on Karma's RW was a mistake (it's only good on paper anyways). This could free up her power budget for more reasonable strengths. Harmonizing damage & shielding in her passive needs to be an objective instead.

Quite frankly, I think a damage/protection support would naturally work well as a mage bruiser toplane, if she used that protection on herself. If she does so, however, she can't protect others - and if she protects herself and others it reduces her damage output - which are actually interesting tradeoffs, that can even be forced upon her by clever pressure from her opponents.

Please note, that this isn't my final vision for her. In some ways even contradictory to it. But those are, for what I can tell, problematic things that Riot COULD easily adress, while making her healthier, hopefully not upsetting anyone and also NOT requiring a visual update. Which, I would love to get tbh, but I understand Riot's time and budget is limited.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

If you think this could actually help Karma, please upvote this. If Riot actually IS as frustrated as I suspect, a coherent vision from the community would help them a lot. If you disagree with my assessment, please let me know. I value every opinion and actually require them to make better suggestions.

Yours, SilverSquid

TLDR I think Karma fans are upset because they asked for attention for her champ, but are getting animations instead of solutions. I propose the real problem is her really split community and Riot's frustration because they don't know which direction to move her. I suggest a few changes I hope everyone can agree on.

73 Comments

Shmeeve10/9/2019, 10:19:09 PM25 votes

Is anyone else going to realize this is the first time lissandra was in a cinematic besides her trailer?

IxtaliKing10/9/2019, 11:10:08 PM10 votes

Totally agree with the issues outlined and the treatments proposed.

Meddler acknowledged duality as something which makes Karma who she is. She ought to be brought back to that design philosophy. Focusing her strengths around damage and protection achieves that.

Would also be nice to see Karma's model updated to be like she is in the cinematic, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that...

ZapMyHeart10/10/2019, 5:08:31 AM8 votes

The issue with Karma that Riot can't seem to understand or refuse to acknowledge is that her kit was an incoherent mess to begin with. The changes that they implemented from when she was first showcased to now is pretty apparently that it just doesn't work.

I mean, how hard is it to just scrap the entire kit and start from anew?

For one thing, that would solve the Karma community issue being torn apart with each change. All parts would be streamlined to a new, fresh kit. Sure, you would piss off the entire Karma community, but at least there wouldn't be any snipes or gripes at one another.

As seen with Neurocat's attempt to mini-rework her kit, it was a failed design, as she basically was catering to SUPPORT/NEW KARMA fans, while doing nothing for the OLD KARMA fans. Personally, my conspiracy theory is that she was bullied by Meddler to focus on working her kit to keep the support aspect mainstreamed. I mean, why ask for opinions, when you are going to do a 180 and ignore it anyways? Same BS when Morello/Scarizard did post-relaunch and it's the same thing Neurocat/Meddler did. Kotaku had an interesting article about female employees getting bullied by the male ones in Riot around the same time it was announced that NC was working on Karma, so there's that. But that's my tinfoil hat opinion on that trainwreck.

The questions Riot should be asking is:

  1. What role should Karma be? --> Battle Mage with hints of tankiness and support (utility)

  2. What are the key things Karma players want? -> Shield bomb/Mantra/Duality

Those two questions have been consistently provided by the Karma community. It's not exactly hard to rebuild, when they are already given a bit of a framework. Like Morde/WW, whose original barebones concept has been retained, while adding in new and fresh things, I fail to see why Riot can't do the same for her.

It's rather depressing that they continue to insist on keeping her Q/RQ (which is garbage) and W/RW (which was the worse part of both old and new Karma's kit), when they can take out those parts, update the passive, R, and make E/RE less powerful to accommodate for other powershifting into new Q and W skills.

Illabethe10/10/2019, 12:59:21 AM7 votes

I'm sorry but Karma has been the target of consecutive nerfs to EVERY part of her kit. She has not had a single fundamental BUFF since her Season 4 nerf. In other words, even though she's never been a stand out 50+% champion in ANY elo or in any season, she's STILL the subject of nerfs..... even if it's for some abstract reason like "We think Shield supports are too strong in general."

You're WRONG about her Q; almost every single mage in the game has a much stronger skill shot than her Q, even when it's R'd. It simply can't secure kills. It can clean UP a kill. Furthermore, most of the game R Q is heavily gated by the fact it IS tied to an R she can only hit 1-2 targets with until really tight team fights. Often the damage is recovered before she even gets into her next volley.

W's scaling is a joke..... 20% can become 22.5% ..... woot.

Shield Karma cannot generally spam it because shield does not hit enemies..... and weak Q/W don't charge it fast.

So yeah. I'm relatively urked that both the Awaken and Phoenix videos BOTH feature Karma, yet she's not even remotely a competitive champion anymore, but rather dead weight that even when played correctly, generally at best can maintain a 51% win rate.

Keiaga10/9/2019, 10:26:58 PM6 votes

I'll set myself up for being proven long since this was a giant melodramatic post that I only skimmed over because I couldn't be bothered to read through it all but

Maybe karma fans just want a champ with higher than 46-47% winrate?

Warden Karma10/9/2019, 10:26:42 PM6 votes

Good points, I really wish Riot would cooperate more with the playerbases. In case of Karma... they seemingly dont know what to do, dont bother or just think the time is better invested somewhere else.

There are so many good suggestions out there Riot!

McwhinneyTw10/10/2019, 1:13:23 PM5 votes

You can be sure about one thing , that they gonna just joke with your post and get on other problems like buffing rengar /evelynn or nerfing the already 46% wr champs. Dude 46% wr is too high for a support which her Q is her only source of damage , are you crazy to ask for a rework or something ? :)

Now go for Karma guys , as support or as mid whatever , you will just never win a trade , let's go take it and go on mid or support , you gonna get rekt by Zyra , Lux , Brand , Thresh (his q do more dmg than Karma's Q when he grabs you lv 1-2 no joke) , Swain or kind of Ap mages who can be playable as support.

They also considered Karma as a "Mage" , actually she is not a Mage with the Q nerf she got which is just WTF , from 60% to 40%.. like really ?

Her winrate continue to go down each day , you know she was doing too much damage with her Q on midlane :) Surely more than Zoe , Lux , Orianna :)

It's sad guys but please don't even type and damage your fingers , it's useless , they just not care about Karma anymore. She was also at 49% wr on midlane with the old Q ap ratio too but better we nerf it :)

No one picks Karma , because she is way useless than the others support ATM with this high nerf , it's sad but she is not really playable anymore

They were like kinda bored to see Karma on top , actually this Q nerf ap ratio doesn't even impact on Top :)

Karma is a mage , so she have to get this flexibility to go Mid , this q ap nerf ratio is just too much for her really ... Most enchanter support actually have more than 50% ap ratios on their skills , and look at Karma ... 40% ........

And really i just laughed hard when i saw Phoenix , they present you Karma as a monster , Goku or a saiyan , then you take her and see that your q do less damage on 40 Magic resistance ADC than turrets hits at 20 min

This video (Phoenix) is like McDonalds ads , this is really the same for Karma .you look McDonalds ads and they show you a excellent and delicious burger

Then when you see it in real , you are like wtf it's not the same In this video it's same , look how karma is shown in the video and now look her Q damage after the nerf :)

Karma : "Always trust your spirit" Sorry bro , but my spirit is actually telling me to play another champ on midlane or support with the Q ap ratio nerf you got

Funny fact : Her E ap ratio has a higher AP Ratio than her Q now [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

alekzu10/10/2019, 12:31:38 PM4 votes

It's nice and all to gives these suggestions but do they really matter when it's like talking to a wall? Even if the Karma community agrees that she needs a rework(not all really but lets just pretend for a moment) the others from X champ community don't.

  1. Take the Yasuo hate for instance. Even if someone made a very constructive thread about that champion, everyone would still downvote and write down that they do not care about anything and would rather see him stay in a very, very weak state.

  2. Then we have Karma who is not so much hated like Yasuo but she suffers from the problem of having a very small community, so small it just can't make a difference when it comes to suggestions or requests...and for that we need help from "outside"(people who don't play/main Karma). But then you return to point 1 so we are pretty much left in an endless cycle with no solution.

I think that the Karma community can't fight this battle alone. And since others don't care we are left in a very desperate place. The rework suggestions of fellow Karma players are almost not engaged. Everyone is tired. How do we really keep on?

Anyway I hope I can be excused for these philosophical stuff, that no one asked for anyway, and just let me share what I think of the suggestions:

  1. RQ ground targeted: It's fine mostly. Right now it's easier to hit RQ at max range and much harder at close range. We are familiar with that RQ that flew "2 microinches" away from the enemy that was near us. Making this ability ground targeted will reverse the range difficulty and make look more like a battle-mage and less of an artillery. My only grip is the damage from the initial hit. It need to be reduced and compensated by increasing the damage on the second half of the ability, the ground explosion. Before the R and RQ ap ration nerf, which needs to be reverted, Karma's RQ hit for too much and by making it ground targeted you take away counterplay from the ability. People can't hide behind minions anymore and for that it would feel oppressive. No, making it harder to hit is not an excuse because that account if the enemy is far but if it's close then it's much easier. That's the drawback. For making it pass trough minions it needs another drawback, in my opinion. Besides you can fire it when someone goes for a minion last hit.

  2. Flat RW heal: I agree that in it's current iteration is not healthy but making it pure flat number is like going to the other extreme, in my eyes. I think a much more preferable iteration of the heal was the one from original Karma. It had a mixture of both flat and % values. Making it only flat numbers will feel very punishing if you go for a bit more tanky build. It wouldn't matter if you would have 2k or 3k health. It basically forces you to build only ap. The heal from original Karma rewarded you for building ap because it had good ap scaling but it also rewarded you for gong a bit more tanky because of that % missing health. Of course what and where were the number and scaling is a different thing. What I try to make count is the notion.

  3. W/RW ally function: I agree. We can even make it a small % dmg reduction with a threshold if it isn't way too powerful. I guess it would be unique because no other champion can give % reduction to others(if I am not mistaken).

  4. Damage from all Mantras: I don't view it as something fundamental. At least I don't think Karma needs damage into all her mantras directly. For example I don't think that Karma needs to get back exactly her shieldbomb. She can have a new RE and create a spiritual area around the target marking enemies who step inside as defilers and make Karma deal more damage to them. Of course it doesn't mean I am against shieldbomb coming back(don't bully me hehe x) )

  5. Healthy RE and shieldbomb: I wasn't sure if I wanted to add the idea for new RE here or in the previous point so I just kept them separated. I don't think I can argue whether Karma's old RE was healthier back then than right now. Her current RE has worse AOE shield and worse AOE move speed(until you max her E) and no damage(with passive interaction). It just has more shield on primary target and that is not enough to call it stronger. There are a lot other factors that contributed to this. First of all the game itself. New runes, new masteries, new/reworked champion, new/reworked items...they all contributed indirectly to her state. Then we have the fact that we have more cooldown reduction for her mantra(45% with cosmic insight and/or 25% with ultimate hunter) and that it is even easier to get than before. Add in her passive which was buffed to reach "astronomical" numbers and you get a Karma that spams RE giving locket + shurelia + censer buff to her whole team on demand while using her basic skills to reset her Mantra. Changing back her RE to shieldbomb won't solve these problems. Her mantra would need longer cooldown and/or weaker passive and/or some utility removed from RE like the AOE shield(which is barely existent at this point). For the last point it could justify for a new RW ally function. Right now it suffers from the problem that it holds all the utility in Karma's kit(like her RQ holds all the damage). Disperse it a little bit around her kit.

  6. CC on RW: I guess the enemy RW extra root is to change into extra damage like "good" old days?

As for how long are your threads, just don't worry about it. What is the point of discussions if people are not willing to invest into reading a little bit more anyway.

we havent met10/10/2019, 12:18:08 AM4 votes

Karma fans are upset because they can literally never be happy. ever.

On a lighter meme note, karma fans arent happy because karma lost hers. (Karma fan joke if you didnt catch it)

Velasan10/10/2019, 9:03:16 PM4 votes

Giving you an up vote because it's so nice to see an actual thought out post and not just someone ranting.

I never played the OG Karma, but I will admit her current play style is not very satisfying (to me at least). Her visuals are very cool though. She has some of the best visuals in the game, particularly in the way her spells are expressed through her model even before and as she fires them off.

Would like to add more, but I'm not a Karma player so it's hard for me to say what they should do with her.

Gapybo10/10/2019, 6:28:09 PM3 votes

It's just so depressing seeing this champ today as someone who played the original champion.

Deathfall10/10/2019, 8:42:37 PM3 votes

There are a lot of problems wrong with Karma's kit. Riot is to blame at the end of the day. They put themselves in this situation by ignoring her growing problems over the years. There are way too many hands on this champion and it ultimately has ruined her existence in this game. Riot could have addressed a single bit of her issues they created, but in term they spent months and years working on champion like Ryze and new ones. When RicklessAbandon removed her Shield Bomb, it sealed Karma's fate and her current state. Riot will NEVER work on this champion again because they waited to long to address her problems and too many different kinds of players are using her. We have old Karma mains that want what is best for her, top Karma main players that like her in the abusive state she is currently in, and new Karma players that just want to sit in the back and press Mantra E. When you wait too long and ignore countless amounts of feedback about a problem, you have multiple problems.

Nothing is happening on this champion because Riot cannot do anything now without annoying one group of Karma mains. When the GU happened earlier this year, the Mage Karma mains were upset. During the Development process of the GU, Support and new karma mains were attacking and belittling anyone with a better opinion and suggestion for Karma . . . . because these mains don't want her to be changed from the shield bot gameplay style she currently has and has had countless times in the past 6 years.

AGAIN, IT'S ALL RIOT'S FAULT AND THEY CREATED THIS DIVISION AND MESS. I mean it's not like myself and so many others told Morello, Meddler, Reaves, RicklessAbandon, Scruffy, and NeuroCat this in the past 6 years. Who cares anymore what they do with Karma. All these Developers are interested in doing is a back and fourth numbers buff and eventual nerf, that will give them another years worth of excuses to ignore her problems and blame something else. They don't care.

Jenivie10/10/2019, 5:16:18 PM3 votes

Im just annoyed because she looks amazing in both Awaken and now this cinematic, but her in game still has a zero wow-factor compared to how she looks in these vids. Her mantle of decorum in game looks like concrete floating behind her head, while her mantle in these videos looks like actual armor, and dont even get me started on her cloak and outfit which look absolutely stunning. I just hope with the new karma image in the cinematics, they'll reflect it into a VGU for karma sometime soon but thats probably not the case.

hRnrBbWoTr10/10/2019, 6:36:31 AM2 votes

Who the fuck is upset about the new video? You wrote a fucking college entry level thesis for a goddamn music video?

Anaspida10/18/2019, 6:08:04 PM2 votes

Usually, in any other situation, i'd say people are just being themselves, shitting on everything, but in this case, after how many time Riot pooped on the karma's fans, it's quite comprehensible that people aren't happy when they hear anything related to her.

As for a lot of people, I used to love Karma, prior her rework. There wasn't outhere a single champion as fun to play, she was super entertaining skillwise, and they turned her into a machinegun that does nothing 75% of the time but to press one button. I see her from time to time when I play aram, and just a glance on my karma traditional skin is enough to make me reroll it or even dodge.

there isn't a single rework that went as poorly as hers, even Rengar's was better, and Riot wasn't only blind about it, they put an urge to nerf every single unique mechanics left to her kit and stubbornly kept saying she was in a good spot, she was overplayed, and she was good, refusing to hear anything about her extremely lackluster kit. (I mean, even ezreal has a better and funnier kit, and god knows that ezrael old kit used to be fun only because of the damage it could dish out in a blink.)

In the end, she's so different that it's just not the same champion at all. I mean, I understand that her kit was beyond broken, thus was made unviable for the sake of it (shield bombs on mantra was the most broken ability in the game, literally doing 1k damage in aoe with her core items), but i'd rather play a slightly weaker champion than this one button champion, because know what ? in the end, it's a game, and it's about being fun, and when you take out all the fun from something, people get mad, still baffles me how people are still mad about it 6 years later, tho, and I love it.

Slim Gragas10/11/2019, 3:52:15 AM2 votes

Must be nice for your main to be in a cinematic AT ALL.

OtterlyLost10/10/2019, 2:17:19 PM1 votes

IDK, I'm just dissatisfied with the entirety of the video, honestly. Not a fan of the animation, not a fan of all of the live action, and, maybe its because I don't follow the actual players, the story was lacking the depth. I feel like if they wanted to focus on the struggles of the ProPlayers in their past games and pursuits that both Ignite and Rise do a far better job, even to the laymen like me.

The animation falls really flat and doesn't feel half as well choreographed as previous videos.

Modl Ryden l10/9/2019, 10:42:21 PM1 votes

I think when it comes to cinematics it tends to 'lock-in' what the champions kit is. It makes the kit rigid and allows very little room to rework.

Because of 'Phoenix' Karmas Q and W are going to stay a orb/skillshot and tether for years to come.

So for any Karma mains waiting on a possible rework, it's most likely not going to happens since reworking her kit would also mean redoing the media she was in. And that would lead to more pains in the butt.

This applies to all champions that have been seen in official Riot media, ie: 'Rise', 'Climb', etc.