We all saw how TSM lost from 1 mistake right

Turdong lite·Mar 6, 2016·99 votes·6,046 views

God look at the game, 30 minutes in and a single ace can result in a win when you're super far behind. Not to mention that in this scenario they pushed up mid when they hadn't even taken the outer mid turret yet, I know that mistakes should be punished and it shouldn't be super hard to comeback from a deficit if you manage to play well and outplay the enemy, but god that's ridiculous that at 30 minutes you can end the game off of 1 ace when you haven't even taken the first mid turret.

78 Comments

GoosetardMar 6, 201643 votes

I think this is a double failure of some of the season 6 changes. Riot wanted to give "teams who had an edge the opportunity to close games if they took convincing, coordinated action" or something like that. What we got was:

If you get ahead you're really, really hard to stop
If you're ahead and you screw up royally, you lose. Not get set back and now it's an even fight, you just flat out lose.

So either it's completely un-fun and unrewarding for the losing team, or the winning team just feels like it got punked. That doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for good, fun, even, interesting, tense, strategic, etc. gameplay.

Sadistic CheeseMar 6, 201610 votes

{quoted}

I think this is a double failure of some of the season 6 changes. Riot wanted to give "teams who had an edge the opportunity to close games if they took convincing, coordinated action" or something like that. What we got was:

If you get ahead you're really, really hard to stop

If you're ahead and you screw up royally, you lose. Not get set back and now it's an even fight, you just flat out lose.

So either it's completely un-fun and unrewarding for the losing team, or the winning team just feels like it got punked. That doesn't seem to leave a lot of room for good, fun, even, interesting, tense, strategic, etc. gameplay.

Agreed, and it makes it even more difficult, at lower elos, to figure where exactly things went wrong or to win a game. When I lose a game, particularly when I feel like I had a hand in it, I sit back and think over the areas where I screwed up, and in this season I've run into a lot of games where I trace it back to the SMALLEST mistake....I died at Red because I'm trying a Jungler I'm not familiar with (in NORMALS, no I don't screw up ranked games. Ranked is not for me.), I took too much damage while I was trying to poke the enemy away from their minion wave when I was support so I had to back and the ADC died, just....little things.

Little mistakes that, in previous seasons, wouldn't mean the game, but you'd be set back. Nowadays it feels like the game punishes me for the smallest mistakes. Not the enemy team, but the way the game goes and is balanced just punishes me for making little mistakes. Unless I die for a teammate to get a penta, very few deaths feel like they're worth it anymore. More than ever it feels like I'm not allowed to be at less than 100% skill level or something.....and that feels bad.

VikingRaidMar 6, 20161 votes

I've gotten better because of it. Couldn't escape the bronze elo hell and now I've made it to silver elo heaven (Kappa)

Hedgehog HustlerMar 6, 20161 votes

I've been stuck in bronze mostly because of my decision to play support and being helpless as my team throws at baron. The only games I've won were when our team knew when not to push into their fountain and die or when I wasn't support.

ZT XperimentorMar 7, 20161 votes

Agreed, it constantly feels like curb-stomps; between the ice-age death timers & paper turrets, most any mistake spirals out of control and ends the game shortly after. Winning & loosing teams aren't satisfied at all while intensely stressed not to do anything, out of fear of costing them the game.

Emperor TimeMar 6, 201624 votes

Lost from one mistake?! No they didn't, they fucked up, multiple times. The baron throw was the icing on the cake.

Also baron is very powerful.

Turdong liteMar 6, 20165 votes

That's irrelevant because neither team took baron and ever even lost graves super early.

Emperor TimeMar 6, 201614 votes

Baron being powerful as in baron literally did a fuck load of damage to tsm and they didn't respect Ever's comp what so ever. Around 20 minutes Dlift get's picked off and then causes yellowstar to suicide which was a fuck up. Haunzter then dies around 23 minutes, which was a big shutdown for ever. They also get Bjerg shortly after that which allows ever to reset the map and gain control. Then around 25 minutes in, Bjerg get's cought once again, then decided to yolo swag flash w ult evers entire team, which leads to him dying as well as yellowstar. After that, yes tsm aces ever, but lose 3 team members in the process and weren't able to finish the game off of that ace(Also Dlift get's all the gold for that fight.). So evers team gets to stall even longer. So then tsm decided to do baron, but they go and kill evers support, which is fine. So then tsm tries to do baron for the second time. At this point all tsm has to do to win is let yellowstar and bjerg kite ever off of their team instead of trying to 5 man rush ever for another teamfight. Tsm decide to fight ever once again and net a kill onto evers top laner, but since they took damage from baron they won't be able to finish and have to back. Then this is when the shit hits the fan. tsm try to baron for the 3rd fucking time, and since they took a lot of damage from baron and gave ever every opportunity to come back, they win the fight straight out because evers team is by far stronger than tsms in a 5v5 scenario on equal terms. So saying that one team fight won ever that game is kind of ridiculous when tsm literally handed ever that win on a silver fucking platter. There is no excuse for tsm losing to a korean challenger team. I'm happy to see that they were able to beat them in a best of 3, but that game was absolutely dog shit played in the mid/late game on tsms part.

Also in the final fight Dlift decided to 1v1 evers adc and got fucked, and since he was the majority of tsms damage he literally lost them that fight.

alvisezMar 6, 20164 votes

sure tsm fucked up there but they did a pentakill just 10 min before that and had the opportunity to push a lane without a turret and the minion already there. why 10 min should make that big difference? because if you look at the the gold difference after the two ace you will see that the two team had the same gold. this is unfair in my opinion. sure they needed to get punished for that mistake but i think that two aces should mean the same thing during all the game. early game aces are important because of the gold and experience difference they make and late game they should be important because of objectives. right now mid game ace dont mean as much as late game aces. i think riot should make a new feature to make enemy turrets stronger for a while after you destroy one. i think on a single lane they should get immortality after 2 of them gets down (obviously for just 1 min). having outer turrets up at 30 min it's a big deal. it means you played perfectly because anybody could take them down in few seconds but this is not rewarded in any way and it's sad imho

WukongMainMar 6, 201617 votes

1 ace at 30 minutes and the team pushed down 5 mid turrets, the inhib and the nexus?

what match was this, i gotta see this xD

ModWulf HelhammerMar 6, 20162 votes

First IEM Katowice match, TSM vs. Ever

DeynaTaggerungMar 6, 20162 votes

Yeah, they actually did a great job switching aggro on turrets and using a big minion wave to clean up behind them really a great push to steal the win back

Turdong liteMar 6, 201612 votes

Also this is not an e sports complaint about tsm losing

It's about what the game has become

The Yetii RiderMar 6, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Turdong lite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhGwKQT1,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-03-06T03:01:57.487+0000)

Also this is not an e sports complaint about tsm losing

It's about what the game has become

Not sure what you want us to say. These are professional players. If they didn't have the ability to coordinate perfectly, seize objectives and create amazing comebacks, no one would want to emulate them.

In this season, with how damn strong snowballing has become, the death timers are necessary for the team from behind to come back. If there were no guarantee that you could win off one ace, everyone would surrender at 20.

MinooshkaMar 6, 20164 votes

I almost feel those -5% time dead Quintessences might start appearing as a valid strategy.

Penta PenguinMar 6, 20162 votes

As if you truly understand that. You don't even understand how the highest level teams can win at 30 minutes after a perfect ace.

Steven McburnMar 6, 20169 votes

People in this thread that say "it wasn't just one mistake by tsm" aren't realizing that's a moot point. Ever had 1 inhib left and 1 nexus tower (i think?) and had only taken 1 tower the entire game. To get to that point, where your base is almost completely gone, means you've made way more mistakes than your opponent has.

The ace at 30 minutes meant they walked into mid lane, killed 3 towers + an inhib, then 2 more towers + a nexus, all before CLG respawned.

If you think that somehow that makes sense, watch the rest of the games played in this split or whatever it's called. Every team avoids fights and hopes for catches; even when they're impossibly ahead, because they know if 1 person on their team dies and a disengage happens they're going to lose a majority of their base.

It's not about CLG, it's the death timers of this season. You don't have to be the better team to win games, you just have to be the team that doesn't make the biggest mistake post 30 minutes.

edit: Previous seasons required you to kill 2 members or more in order to deal as much damage to a base as you can deal now with just 1 catch. It's why turtling worked before this season; you could lose 1 person and waveclear and be ok. Now you can't; they'll simply ignore your towers and dive you and laugh that it's a 5v4 and your turret deals 2 dmg a minute.

ChaoticPineconeMar 6, 20169 votes

Lets break this down:

Sven was low before the fight - like 25% health. He was so low he couldnt even get in to to pop the Randuins.
11/1/4 Doublelift was out of mana. He had enough mana to shoot 4 Q's in that fight, and he only landed 2 on TF (none on Lucian). His mana pool is also a huge part of his damage with the Muramana.
6/1/11 Hauntzer was out of mana. He basically dives 1v3 with no mana, no ult, and without ripose. He also doesnt hit any vitals. Nor did he build particularly tanky.
The only carry with full resources were Bjerg who was 1/4/16. He landed one E, W, Q on Naut and hit nothing else.
And they played the fight horribly. Bjerg, Hauntzer, and Sven go after Nautlius/Bard/TF, while Doublelift goes after Lucian after getting TF low but not finishing him off. Yellowstar leaves Doublelift to 2v1. They also spend all their abilities on the tank, while Sven (the tankiest on TSM) couldnt tank anything.
It took them way too long to fight. It was basically a 5 person push after the ace since Graves was back up. And double AD comps takes turrets quick.

And from the macro level of play - TSM lost a 4v5 with a 10k lead. This season is snowbally - its a lot easier to win from a early lead. If you throw a 4v5 with a 10k lead, you deserve to lose.

FeathermaneMar 6, 20168 votes

Turrets may as well get deleted, that's how useful they are.

Letter HMar 6, 20168 votes

TSM fucked up over and over. They got slapped for it, gg no re.

LauchmelderMar 6, 20162 votes

That's stupid.

Why should a team that fucked up over and over in the earlygame, a team that is behind by several thousand gold, be allowed to end a game off of ONE lucky ace? Deathtimers are retarded, ESC had no tower taken in mid and pushed EVERYTHING. They had the Nexus at 50% when the first guy from TSM spawned.

"Deathtimers are ok." Kappa forgotten

Tobias BracknerMar 6, 20164 votes

It wasn't a lucky ace. One team got clean outplayed, watch it again.

LauchmelderMar 7, 20161 votes

Does it matter? No One won teamfight at THIRTY (30) minutes should NOT win the game unless you are at the inhib Tower already. Aced at 30 minutes, watch the enemy Team take every Tower in a lane and respawn when the Nexus is at 50% hp. If that's not broken I don't know.

Deathtimers are stupid this season.

Tobias BracknerMar 7, 20161 votes

"One won teamfight at THIRTY (30) minutes should NOT win the game unless you are at the inhib Tower already." Why not? Is there a reason behind this behind you just not liking it?

LauchmelderMar 7, 20161 votes

If you still haven't taken the first Tower at 30 minutes you are clearly the inferior Team. That's it.

Tobias BracknerMar 7, 20161 votes

Unless you get completely trashed in a teamfight?

I feel that you tower-centric measure of skill completely disregards the value of teamfights in League, and that would be incredibly silly.

LauchmelderMar 8, 20161 votes

Do you just reply for the sake of replying? Looks that way.

This game is not called CoD. You don't have to teamfight to win a game, but you have to take towers to win a game. Thus objectives>kills. Why exactly do you think the Pros don't teamfight 24/7? Because they got no skill?

Tobias BracknerMar 8, 20161 votes

I replied to highlight your strangely narrow-minded view of what makes a team superior/inferior.

"Why exactly do you think the Pros don't teamfight 24/7?" Where did this question come from? It seems like you are trying to distill this conversation into a zero-sum game of teamfights v objectives. I'm certain you know that while teamfights technically aren't necessary to win a game, completely avoiding them would be extremely difficult, correct? Also you certainly realize how much a good teamfight can swing a game, yes?

LauchmelderMar 8, 20161 votes

Would you stop going offtopic then?

30 Minute into the game you have 60-70 second deathtimers. It's too Long. Period

Tobias BracknerMar 8, 20161 votes

How am I going off topic? You are making claims to support your statement and I am countering those claims. This is literally how a conversation works.

LauchmelderMar 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhGwKQT1,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2016-03-06T20:01:51.126+0000)

That's stupid.

Why should a team that fucked up over and over in the earlygame, a team that is behind by several thousand gold, be allowed to end a game off of ONE lucky ace? Deathtimers are retarded, ESC had no tower taken in mid and pushed EVERYTHING. They had the Nexus at 50% when the first guy from TSM spawned.

"Deathtimers are ok." Kappa forgotten

My original Statement.

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhGwKQT1,comment-id=001200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-08T07:26:08.647+0000)

I replied to highlight your strangely narrow-minded view of what makes a team superior/inferior.

"Why exactly do you think the Pros don't teamfight 24/7?" Where did this question come from? It seems like you are trying to distill this conversation into a zero-sum game of teamfights v objectives. I'm certain you know that while teamfights technically aren't necessary to win a game, completely avoiding them would be extremely difficult, correct? Also you certainly realize how much a good teamfight can swing a game, yes?

Your last statement. We are not discussing, I am trying to get a point across while you resort to passive aggressive comments.

I replied to highlight your strangely narrow-minded view of what makes a team superior/inferior.

Have a good day and may you learn to actually argue without trying to insult the oposition.

Tobias BracknerMar 8, 20161 votes

You wanna play "quotsies"?

"If you still haven't taken the first Tower at 30 minutes you are clearly the inferior Team. " You seem to imply that towers are the best measure of skill.

My response: "Unless you get completely trashed in a teamfight?

I feel that you tower-centric measure of skill completely disregards the value of teamfights in League, and that would be incredibly silly."

Your response to this is saying that League isn't Call of Duty. This in no way refutes my point that measuring a team's quality by how many towers it takes down in 30 minutes is silly.

LauchmelderMar 8, 20161 votes

I guess I haven't been clear enough:

Have. A. Good. Day

I have no intention to discuss this topic further with someone who only can see his/her point of view.

Tobias BracknerMar 8, 20161 votes

No you were clear but you still decided to come back and be an asshole.

"I have no intention to discuss this topic further with someone who only can see his/her point of view." I can only pray that you see the irony of this statement.

Tobias BracknerMar 8, 20161 votes

No you were clear but you still decided to come back and be an asshole.

"I have no intention to discuss this topic further with someone who only can see his/her point of view." I can only pray that you see the irony of this statement.

Sir YamazukiMar 6, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhGwKQT1,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2016-03-06T20:01:51.126+0000)

That's stupid.

Why should a team that fucked up over and over in the earlygame, a team that is behind by several thousand gold, be allowed to end a game off of ONE lucky ace? Deathtimers are retarded, ESC had no tower taken in mid and pushed EVERYTHING. They had the Nexus at 50% when the first guy from TSM spawned.

"Deathtimers are ok." Kappa forgotten

While yes, it is possible to win off a single ace, but the events leading to that one ace is normally due to many mistakes being made along the way.

LauchmelderMar 7, 20162 votes

And the events leading to being behind by 10k Gold should still have an Impact rather than "Let's Play bad for the first 30 minutes and then win off of one teamfight".

Should comebacks be possible? Hell yes Should it be as easy as it is now? No. The winning Team should feel an impact, not watch their base get torn to shreds due to 70 second deathtimers at 30 minutes.

Sir YamazukiMar 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xhGwKQT1,comment-id=0012000000010000,timestamp=2016-03-07T07:56:34.094+0000)

And the events leading to being behind by 10k Gold should still have an Impact rather than "Let's Play bad for the first 30 minutes and then win off of one teamfight".

Should comebacks be possible? Hell yes Should it be as easy as it is now? No. The winning Team should feel an impact, not watch their base get torn to shreds due to 70 second deathtimers at 30 minutes.

Having a gold lead doesn't make you immune to being punished for mistakes, they didn't make one single mistake, they made many mistakes. You have to make really bad multiple mistakes to even lose a fight with a lead. Of course, you want to ignore context to complain for the sake of complaining.

LauchmelderMar 7, 20161 votes

Ok you clearly fail to read properly.

I said: If you have a teamfight you should feel an IMPACT! Never did I say that you should be immune (wich you imply I said. It's plain out wrong).

Maybe I have to write it so even you can understand this:

Enemy Team has a lead. Your Team is behind. Teamfight happens. You somehow win the teamfight. Enemy Team should feel an impact, their lead shrunk. Enemy Team screws up more and more. Your Team has a lead. Your Team wins. It was a comeback.

What we see this season is this:

Enemy Team has a lead. Your Team is behind. It doesn't matter how hard they won the earlygame. One won teamfight results in a huge Advantage/win for your Team. That's not a comeback. That is winning a game due to the System.

I don't know about you, but I was on the winning side and on the losing side of this. Either way it's BS to lose not to a Team superior in skill but to deathtimers. If your Team is 5:15 10 minutes into the game you definitely aren't the better Team. Season 6 is the season where rewards for playing the better earlygame got removed.

TL.DR: Read it all or don't bother replying.

JPlayahMar 6, 20166 votes

Ever won because of respawn timers. That's it. Now that said, it was a brilliant play by Ever. They knew that they could easily distract TSM from doing baron, so they made the most of it. Rather than jumping in all at once like they had done before, they approached from multiple directions and poked. By dividing TSM's attention and getting them to focus on multiple things at once, they steadily poked them down without TSM making a real commitment to respond. Once they had gotten the health of TSM's members down to critical levels, they capitalized on their new health advantage, switched gears, and collapsed onto them to finish them off and get the ace.

TSM's mistake was failing to make a commitment. If they had realized how physically divided their opponents were, they could have chosen a single target or location, moved as a group to that target or location to get kills there, then moved to engage the rest of Ever and force them into a 4v5 or 3v5. After that, they could have returned to baron, taken it, and won the game. Instead, Ever pulled their attention in several directions, and with their attention divided, they failed to act as a team.

Shadow GilgameshMar 6, 20165 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrAKe2Jo_kc

Match in question.

That's pretty fucked up, we went from kind of alright last season, to games you couldn't make any comebacks in during the preseason, to "you only need to win one fight" in season 6 proper.

Slamurai JackMar 6, 20165 votes

You have to make a lot of mistakes to lose a 5v4 teamfight when you're up over 10k gold.

DwithMar 6, 20164 votes

If dt's were any shorter it would be constant fights and making objectives hard to get. Whats so wrong about a team making a huge macro/micro error and having it cost them the game? Just because they are ahead at the later stage of the game doesn't mean they should get X amount of chances. You screw up late game well thats too bad sucks to suck shoulda been smarter with your massive lead.

Turdong liteMar 6, 201615 votes

If they were any shorter the game would be more interactive because you wouldn't have to play scared knowing that a single mistake is a loss.

Nidalee SO NYAAAMar 7, 20164 votes

This has nothing to do with the death timers. This has to do with the towers being so god damn weak. Last season we had the same death timers and the only difference that the towers were stronger

BluePolarizerMar 7, 20162 votes

nope the death timers were massively extended this season. It was even in patch notes.

Turdong liteMar 6, 20163 votes

Yes they made multiple mistakes, but in the end they were still way ahead gold and map pressure wise yet a single 30 min ace lost them the game when they had every single turret still up except for the t1 bot.

QNjixEktAnMar 6, 20162 votes

The real problem is that turrets just do fucking nothing at all to anyone but minions and they barely hurt minions. Why should naut be able to tank 5 turrets straight with zero heals and like 150 mana for that long is my real question.

Tsm threw that game also. They have a zero mana fiora low mana ezreal all trying to zerg baron and peel off on a team fight afterwards. Fiora couldn't even ult cause she had no mana. Its TSM's fault for not allowing fiora to base like lissandra did before that baron attempt. They had 2 people bot 3 near baron they could of double recalled double tp'd to baron and then made it a 5v5 while 3 of them started it. Instead TSM tp's fiora up with low mana and made horrible target choices the entire time.

They deserve that lose, also there was way more then 1 mistake that game i seen countless of mistake one of which was a random tower dive for no reason with a low range mage trying to siege and if the mistake is that huge of a mistake like tsm did then they should lose every time off that.

Sythriel DrakenMar 7, 20163 votes

Welcome to season 6.. towers don't do shit. The reason they lost 5 turrets in a row is that at 30 minutes, most people have half if not all of their items.. I've seen a garen tank an inhib turret, and manage to kill it within a few q's.. Heaven forbid if it was a nasus.. who can 3 shot towers with a medium stacked q and not die.

Towers need to be reworked especially in the base to help those on the team that is getting stomped come back.