Open Discussion on Garen - Improvements, Enhancements, Updates, & Reworks

OmegasisX·Apr 22, 2018·8 votes·8,000 views

Hello to everyone concerned with the current condition and state of the Might of Demacia,

My name is OmegasisX and I have been playing League of Legends for a couple years now. I started off not knowing much about the game, nor its characters, but was inspired to play because of one of my best friends. I am currently in Gold 4 (Solo/Duo) & Gold 5 (Flex 5v5), but, through general game and champion knowledge, have the ability to consistently compete (and do well) against high gold, plat, & sometimes even diamond players (depending on which ranked system is queued up).

As I have seen many others players on these forums describe their distaste of the way Riot has handled treating one of their most beloved (or not) champions in League of Legends, and seeing how that champion has actually become my best champion to play with competitively (over half a million mastery points with a near 50% win rate - lower elo games depend on how well your other teammates can do or not) I wanted to bring a positive change to his playstyle as well as professional playability.

As many of us know, Garen suffers from a few major issues:

His lack of a clear engage makes his teamfighting relevance not very strong:

At best, what Garen has to offer is armor shred, damage, a 1-use silence on a single target for 1.5 seconds, & a finisher. That's it. He has no way to remove targets physically from the vicinity, nor does he have anyway of reliably getting to the backline to remove priority targets. If Garen builds standard Black Cleaver tank, he relies on his teammates to do well to carry teamfights and win games.

His lack of mobility makes him easily kitable, without much counterplay:

As Riot has said before, Garen will always be a champion that can be kited. I'm not saying he shouldn't. But what I am saying is that he should be able to face off against those kiters with some consistency.

Garen is a melee champ. That means there will always be inherent disadvantages for him against ranged matchups and champions. But other champions, like Riven & Yasuo, have ways to get close to ranged champions to be able to fight against them. Garen has no such ability. Therefore, in order for him to be on par with basic fighting principles in League, he needs to have his engage mechanic looked at (and possibly reworked).

His early level & laning phase presence is weak. Really weak.

We all know Garen's passive and how it works. We know (as champs playing against him) that we need to keep it off. And we know (as people playing as him) that even if it is on, it's not very strong (at least in the early levels). This presents the inherent issue imbedded in the way his passive is structured - Garen is weak in the beginning of the game. Where other champs, like Akali, can heal themselves all the way back to full health with a few auto attacks, Garen has to wait quite a while for his healing to get him there, AND he has to wait quite a while for it to come back on if it's turned off. That being said, his passive IS much stronger in the later stages of the game, but sometimes he isn't able to do well enough to get there properly. With this in mind, it would make sense to enhance his early level SUSTAIN capabilities so that he can remain relevant during the early stages of the game without being considered OP.

I personally have created a list of potential changes that could be considered by those in charge of champion reworks and "maintenance" to enhance his teamfighting relevance as well as his 1v1 capabilities (the link in this article):

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mv6uwJJE-much-needed-garen-update-mini-rework

Any feedback considering these changes (either positive or negative) would be greatly appreciated, and please feel free to leave suggestions of your own, as the true intention of this post is to have the voices of the Garen fans and players be heard by Riot so that appropriate steps can be taken to improve and enhance the champion we know can be much better.

Thanks for reading this far and for listening. Maybe together we really can get Riot to hear us this time.

OmegasisX

45 Comments

redniwediSApr 22, 20187 votes

Personally, I would just like to see Garen's old movement speed nerfs reverted. In patch 5.17 he had his base movement speed reduced by 5, and his Q speed boost cut down by 5%. This was due to the recent addition of Dead Man's Plate. A little while later the Boots of Swiftness nerf happened and hit his most used boots by 5ms.

Garen could use some work, but a small change like this could definitely hold him over for a while. I can deal with the weak early game, early end to the lane phase, and rapid rotations that quickly leave you outnumbered, but when I dedicate half of my item slots to movement speed and get successfully chased down by someone who only has one item for it things can be a little frustrating to say the least.

Also, if you're interested in Garen focused talk I suggest checking out the Garen Mains subreddit. You can get some good high elo opinions on Garen, his matchups (for and against), and on any ideas for changes that you have.

(I copy/pasted this from the mostly empty thread you deleted. Didn't get a chance to post it, but wrote this all out before the thread got deleted, so I'll cover the points you made in this one next.)

His lack of a clear engage makes his teamfighting relevance not very strong:

Garen has never been a fantastic team fighter. He has AoE, can nuke down a target, and has that all important silence, but those are all things that only help with a team fight. These abilities simply do not dictate the fight like the abilities of strong team fighters do.

Garen is at his best when in small fights, where picking off a single target can drastically turn the fight. This puts him in the split pushing/duelist category, even though he is worse at both than straight up split pushing champions and duelists. I'm honestly fine with this, if only because it has always been this way. Garen is mediocre at all of this, including team fighting, but as a result can do all of them decently. I personally enjoy the flexibility rather than being forced down one path.

His lack of mobility makes him easily kitable, without much counterplay:

I think I touched on this enough with my original attempted post, but I will add that this is a problem all Juggernauts are dealing with, not just Garen, so it's honestly part of a larger conversation that needs to take place.

His early level & laning phase presence is weak. Really weak.

Before the Juggernaut update happened Garen had a pretty decent early game and a fantastic mid game. He wasn't a match for the early game titans of the time, but could hold his own against other mid game champions and would put late game champions into the dirt. If you didn't play him properly he would fall off late game, but most mains of him could make due.

The Juggernaut update shifted a fair amount of his early game power into his late game, and during season 5 it worked pretty darn well. That said we're three seasons into the future from then, and with all the other changes that have happened Garen's late game power is back to pre-Juggernaut levels. This wouldn't really be a problem, we managed before that update just fine, but Garen's early game is still comparatively weak. Either his early game needs to return to pre-Juggernaut levels as well, or that late game power he is supposed to have needs to be fixed, because as it stands Garen is, overall, weak in a lot of situations where he shouldn't be.

That's not to say he can't be played effectively, he just can't be played as if he has a strong early game. Unless you completely outclass your lane opponent you have to give up level 2 advantage, and play passively and wait for your opponent to make mistakes. Garen has little to no mechanical skill requirement, so you have to fully plan around macro play. For most people this won't be worth it, as the effort to make Garen work as you go up in player skill does not match the reward you get for playing him.

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

Thank you very much for your response RedinwediS, I will definitely take a look at the Reddit page.

As for deleting the previous thread, I happened to be on a different computer when I first started it, so the only way to transfer it at the time was post my incomplete version, then restart again on the other computer (I didn't want to publish an incomplete version of my thoughts), so I apologize for making you re-type things.

Thank you anyway though for your feedback. I definitely value what you have said and see the validity in many of the things you say.

P.S. - I also happen to play various styles of Garen, ranging from full black cleaver tank, to split push AD Garen (thanks to the Glacier on YouTube - check him out if you don't already know him), to bruiser / off-tank Garen, so I can adapt my personal playstyle according to each game's circumstances. My attempt was to enhance Garen as a whole, regardless of my ability to play off of his weaknesses or not.

UoL NicknameMyApr 22, 20181 votes

What does this tell us? Garen needs more base damage on Q and E for the lategame, while not buffing the midgame. Kinda hard to do, but archievable with increasing his base AD and AD per level and lower the AD ratios early, while increasing the early base damage. If done right, early and late are stronger, while midgame is weaker or even.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:NicknameMy/Garen_changes_for_more_balance_and_interactive_gameplay

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

What does this tell us? Garen needs more base damage on Q and E for the lategame, while not buffing the midgame. Kinda hard to do, but archievable with increasing his base AD and AD per level and lower the AD ratios early, while increasing the early base damage. If done right, early and late are stronger, while midgame is weaker or even.

I certainly agree UoL NicknameMy. His midgame is fine for now as it is (level 11 power spike is huge), but his early and late game need more work. Take a look at the suggestions I made - they may make you think of more yourself:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mv6uwJJE-much-needed-garen-update-mini-rework

MarineRevengeApr 22, 20185 votes

increase his Dmg per level to 5 Buff his E by Adding %hp Dmg per Tick Remove Q cast time, increase silence duration from 1.5 to 2 Sec Make his passive useful in the laning phase (something like Maokai's or Akali's passive) Make his AA deal % hp Dmg so he doesn't become useless after burning his CDs Reward Garen for killing the villian (extra gold or armor/magic resist) [garen-swing]

statelesskillerApr 22, 20181 votes

on the topic of making his passive useful i thought that while an ability is active garen's passive turns on, so like imagine that he is spinning, the entire duration of his spin he heals from it.

what this also means is that i would like the passive to be slightly changed, so that it goes from a small constant heal to shorter bursts of healing. maybe double its pre level 11 healing

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

on the topic of making his passive useful i thought that while an ability is active garen's passive turns on, so like imagine that he is spinning, the entire duration of his spin he heals from it.

what this also means is that i would like the passive to be slightly changed, so that it goes from a small constant heal to shorter bursts of healing. maybe double its pre level 11 healing

Hmm, interesting idea. Not sure how Riot would implement that, seeing as how he is supposed to regenerate OUT of combat, but maybe some form of in-combat sustain is possible. I'll look into it more.

You can take a look and keep up-to-date with suggestions I currently have here:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mv6uwJJE-much-needed-garen-update-mini-rework

OmegasisXApr 22, 20182 votes

increase his Dmg per level to 5 Buff his E by Adding %hp Dmg per Tick Remove Q cast time, increase silence duration from 1.5 to 2 Sec Make his passive useful in the laning phase (something like Maokai's or Akali's passive) Make his AA deal % hp Dmg so he doesn't become useless after burning his CDs Reward Garen for killing the villian (extra gold or armor/magic resist) [garen-swing]

Thank you for your suggestions MarineRevenge, I definitely agree with them. I have a link with changes to make, so that'd be a better place to list them.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mv6uwJJE-much-needed-garen-update-mini-rework

MarineRevengeApr 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for your suggestions MarineRevenge, I definitely agree with them. I have a link with changes to make, so that'd be a better place to list them.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mv6uwJJE-much-needed-garen-update-mini-rework thanks, btw I'm not the real MarineRevene. I'm just a fan

OmegasisXApr 23, 20181 votes

thanks, btw I'm not the real MarineRevene. I'm just a fan

Haha, ok. Just thought I'd ask. :p

fabfanApr 22, 20183 votes

In my opinion Garen need some damage buff on this E (base damage, AD ratio or both) and an in-fight sustain mechanic, i don't know why every juggernauts (nasus, illaoi, darius, mordekaiser, skarner, poppy etc) got healing/shield to stay alive and Garen got nothing (this W is not strong enough to survive because CC chain and kiting).

Rework/Remove this vilain mecanic (to random and it's only usefull on a tank with magic resistance....).

Maybe a buff on this Q for catch range champion (not to much because kiting must be his weakness but at the moment he can't catch anyone) and some improvement like Q animation scale with attack speed.

Personally, I would just like to see Garen's old movement speed nerfs reverted.

God yes i want that too.

And of course a large bug fix, I've got a few here:

-Q doesn't work on Jhin's/Nidalee's traps and Teemo's shroom.

-Q proc to early energized item and Statik shiv/FleetWork cannot crit (even if you got 100% Crit chance).

-E stop all Garen movement when it's finished or canceled.

-Ult get canceled when the enemy get out of Garen's vision/range even if he is in mid-animation

Riot 4.18 patch: “Fixed a bug where Demacian Justice would cancel if Garen lost sight of his target.”

Me: I think they are trolling Garen mains....

PS: Sorry for my English

OmegasisXApr 22, 20182 votes

And of course a large bug fix, I've got a few here:

-Q doesn't work on Jhin's/Nidalee's traps and Teemo's shroom.

-Q proc to early energized item and Statik shiv/FleetWork cannot crit (even if you got 100% Crit chance).

-E stop all Garen movement when it's finished or canceled.

Thank you for your suggestions Fabfan, I have already included the bug fixes as part of the list, & some of the ideas you had I already have listed on the page with changes:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/mv6uwJJE-much-needed-garen-update-mini-rework

Take a look and see if any more ideas may come to your mind.

P.S. - And don't worry about your English. It's fine. :)

CrazFight Apr 22, 20181 votes

I think he is fine the way he is, maybe some small buffs is all that’s needed.

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

I think he is fine the way he is, maybe some small buffs is all that’s needed.

Alright, thanks.

SwiftKitten88Apr 22, 20181 votes

ok the first argument is that he is bad in teamfights. umm ok... not every champ can teamfight. and garen is a hel of a lot better in them than a bunch of others soo yeah

2nd argument is thst he is easily kiteable...

that is just flat out bullshit

garen is agurmable the hardest melee champ in the game to kite

CC is pertty much illrevent vs him so unless you have multiple dashes that you can use BEFORE he can get in range.. you cant really use any form of CC to kit him.

once he reaches you.. you cant even use dashes Or any kind of spell let alone CC.

so right off ther bad your first argument is irrelevant..

your 2nd argument is flat out bullshit. i cant comment on the third one as i wold have to face him in lane to do so and havent played top since season 4.

but

garen does NOT need buffs... garen is actaully VERY balanced right now.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/garen/all

that is a balanced champ.

there.. you guys are starting toi become almost as bad as the Shaco players.

50% WINRATE RATE IN EVERY ELO DOES NOT NEED A BUFF

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

ok the first argument is that he is bad in teamfights. umm ok... not every champ can teamfight. and garen is a hel of a lot better in them than a bunch of others soo yeah

Ok, sure. Not every champion may be the best teamfighter, but I am referring to his specific role as a tank - tanks have ways to engage on enemies and keep them there (ex: zac dive and ult, or gragas exploding casket & body slam). Garen doesn't have any of those, so that's where his "inability to teamfight" came from.

2nd argument is thst he is easily kiteable...

that is just flat out bullshit

garen is agurmable the hardest melee champ in the game to kite

I honestly don't know how you derived this, as Riot themselves has stated that Garen is a kitable champion. He lacks an instant engage, and if someone slows him after he uses Q, he has no other counterplay.

CC is pertty much illrevent vs him so unless you have multiple dashes that you can use BEFORE he can get in range.. you cant really use any form of CC to kit him.

It's most definitely NOT irrelevant to him, ESPECIALLY if multiple enemies CC him. I don't know how long it's been since you've played Garen, but he's been changed a lot since then. His W no longer grants 30% Tenacity like it used to. At best, he now receives 60% tenacity for 0.75 seconds, & then his tenacity falls off. So, if he gets caught, that might be the end for him.

once he reaches you.. you cant even use dashes Or any kind of spell let alone CC.

That's only the case if he lands a Q on you. He won't always do that.

so right off ther bad your first argument is irrelevant..

garen does NOT need buffs... garen is actaully VERY balanced right now.

Once again, when compared to other COMPETTIVELY VIABLE champions (i.e. for initiation & sustained teamfights), Garen is not one of them.

SwiftKitten88Apr 22, 20182 votes

{quoted} Once again, when compared to other COMPETTIVELY VIABLE champions (i.e. for initiation & sustained teamfights), Garen is not one of them.

YES, when compares to OP champs he is balanced.. that's the meaning of "balanced".

stop trying to think like riot.. if something is op you don't buff what is balanced to makes everything OP.. you nerf what is OP to make everything balanced.

that sort of thinking is EXACTLY why we HAVE damage creep

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

YES, when compares to OP champs he is balanced.. that's the meaning of "balanced".

stop trying to think like riot.. if something is op you don't buff what is balanced to makes everything OP.. you nerf what is OP to make everything balanced.

that sort of thinking is EXACTLY why we HAVE damage creep

Interesting, I never thought about it quite like that. You do have a point.

The only way to fix things according to your statement, though, would be to nerf ALL the other OP champions, & there is simply no way Riot will ever do that. So, that leaves buffing Garen to be the only other reasonable course of action.

SwiftKitten88Apr 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Interesting, I never thought about it quite like that. You do have a point.

The only way to fix things according to your statement, though, would be to nerf ALL the other OP champions, & there is simply no way Riot will ever do that. So, that leaves buffing Garen to be the only other reasonable course of action.

and if they donlt do that and soon this game WILL die.

We are already starting to enter into the realm of one ability one-shotting something. 2-3 autos 1 shotting something.

items like item 3193 , needing to massively increase health for even TANKS to survive and do their job.

what do u think happens if damage goes higher?

riot is running out of time to fix this...

players are leaving.. streamers are leaving.. league is not even #1 on twitch anymore. LCS views are drastically lowered compared other season and percentage of twitch watched watching that compared to other things.

this game is dying and unless they can lower damage successfully and bring people back and incentive newer players to join, and not alienate them by trying to cater to LC$ rather than the people paying them, there is likely less than 5 years left in this.

since considering league is riots ONLY game... they NEED to get their shit together

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

and if they donlt do that and soon this game WILL die.

We are already starting to enter into the realm of one ability one-shotting something. 2-3 autos 1 shotting something.

items like , needing to massively increase health for even TANKS to survive and do their job.

what do u think happens if damage goes higher?

riot is running out of time to fix this...

players are leaving.. streamers are leaving.. league is not even #1 on twitch anymore. LCS views are drastically lowered compared other season and percentage of twitch watched watching that compared to other things.

this game is dying and unless they can lower damage successfully and bring people back and incentive newer players to join, and not alienate them by trying to cater to LC$ rather than the people paying them, there is likely less than 5 years left in this.

since considering league is riots ONLY game... they NEED to get their shit together

I see. I didn't realize it was that bad, but I do see your point.

Ultimately, the decision as to whether or not this game will survive will depend upon the financial & social decisions Riot makes concerning the power balance in the game, as well as the incentives & rewards for playing. This issue goes much further than just Garen, but Garen plays his part in the larger issue.

Thank you for your feedback. I better understand your point of view and what you were attempting to communicate.

SwiftKitten88Apr 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I see. I didn't realize it was that bad, but I do see your point.

Ultimately, the decision as to whether or not this game will survive will depend upon the financial & social decisions Riot makes concerning the power balance in the game, as well as the incentives & rewards for playing. This issue goes much further than just Garen, but Garen plays his part in the larger issue.

Thank you for your feedback. I better understand your point of view and what you were attempting to communicate.

i am actually shocked to see this kind of response on the forum, it's not something i get here often.. i am going to send you a friend request. its been a VERY long time since a person i have met here has been able to look an an issue objectively ignore their own bais, and modify their option based on data and counter-arguments given by other.. it's a rare sight to behold...

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

i am actually shocked to see this kind of response on the forum, it's not something i get here often.. i am going to send you a friend request. its been a VERY long time since a person i have met here has been able to look an an issue objectively ignore their own bais, and modify their option based on data and counter-arguments given by other.. it's a rare sight to behold...

Great! Glad I could provide meaningful & worthwhile dialogue for someone who genuinely cares about this game we have come to appreciate so much.

chipndip1Apr 22, 20181 votes

Don't waste your type. Some champs, like Garen, have too many die hards in the fan base that want to force him to be as he is now. Riot won't change him because they want to avoid people that'll get mad if they change "muh simple champs", but there's super little that can be done to make him a decent champion in this game anymore. It's the reason I stopped making Sona threads.

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

Don't waste your type. Some champs, like Garen, have too many die hards in the fan base that want to force him to be as he is now. Riot won't change him because they want to avoid people that'll get mad if they change "muh simple champs", but there's super little that can be done to make him a decent champion in this game anymore. It's the reason I stopped making Sona threads.

I'm sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with Riot & Sona before. I would like to believe that changes can be made if enough people aspire to influence their happening, but I am not unaware of the unrealistic expectation that implies - Riot will take the time to look at the suggestions & prioritize a champion that doesn't see very much competitive play nor enhances their social image (other than as a joke) in order to make a small (or not) percentage of the fan base happy.

That being said, I'll still advocate for changes to be made for him, & maybe it will actually amount to something.

As for Sona, I can only say I hope you get the improvements to the quality of life that you are looking for.

Thanks for your feedback.

Vlada CutMay 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Don't waste your type. Some champs, like Garen, have too many die hards in the fan base that want to force him to be as he is now. Riot won't change him because they want to avoid people that'll get mad if they change "muh simple champs", but there's super little that can be done to make him a decent champion in this game anymore. It's the reason I stopped making Sona threads.

Oh yeah? Then explain Irelia rework. She used to be simpler and now she's much higher skill cealing. She feels more like a blade dancee now like she should have been, and people like'd her rework. Except everyone is seriously questioning her W though, but still,you stil get the drill.

Triumphant GloryApr 22, 20181 votes

I saw this idea somewhere and i liked it. What if after 4 spins ,Garen could choose to either make his Ult true damage( same application as his current shred, or use Q to silence and disarm or apply a stun of like 1.5 second or something ? It would force Garen to make decision, either run at enemy with Q, silence them , spin on them 4 time and make the ultimate deal true damage, or E , press Q , spin 4 time and finish with a stun, a few basic attack in between with magic damage ult. It would make some creative combo . We could remove the shred if the true damage /stun is too much but i beleive it could stay.

OmegasisXApr 22, 20181 votes

I saw this idea somewhere and i liked it. What if after 4 spins ,Garen could choose to either make his Ult true damage( same application as his current shred, or use Q to silence and disarm or apply a stun of like 1.5 second or something ? It would force Garen to make decision, either run at enemy with Q, silence them , spin on them 4 time and make the ultimate deal true damage, or E , press Q , spin 4 time and finish with a stun, a few basic attack in between with magic damage ult. It would make some creative combo . We could remove the shred if the true damage /stun is too much but i beleive it could stay.

Replied in the other link! Definitely thinking about a way to make this work. :)

fckinshrimpMay 12, 20181 votes

Nerf that brainless cancer.

OmegasisXMay 14, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Nerf that brainless cancer.

Someone had a bad experience.

fckinshrimpMay 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Someone had a bad experience.

Yes, I had extremely bad experince playing against him but I guess every champion is broken in some sort of way. I feel like there is problem with garen in low elo when noone knows how to counter him.

OmegasisXMay 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I had extremely bad experince playing against him but I guess every champion is broken in some sort of way. I feel like there is problem with garen in low elo when noone knows how to counter him.

Yes, I have experienced a similar issue. The way Garen is now, he is a very simple champion. Period. He doesn't have a whole lot of outplay potential, nor does he have the ability to excel in teamfights. He has flat CD's, no in-combat sustain, and no form of useful engage against slippery targets. However, an experienced Garen player can work around these things and can be quite dangerous to less-experienced players.

fckinshrimpMay 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I have experienced a similar issue. The way Garen is now, he is a very simple champion. Period. He doesn't have a whole lot of outplay potential, nor does he have the ability to excel in teamfights. He has flat CD's, no in-combat sustain, and no form of useful engage against slippery targets. However, an experienced Garen player can work around these things and can be quite dangerous to less-experienced players.

Btw why tanks deal true damage? And im talking about a lot of true damage. Garen can deal like 1000 true damage from ult, but real problem is chogath(5k hp and 3k damage of true dmg...)

OmegasisXMay 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Btw why tanks deal true damage? And im talking about a lot of true damage. Garen can deal like 1000 true damage from ult, but real problem is chogath(5k hp and 3k damage of true dmg...)

My suspicion is because without that true damage, they would have no reliable way to secure a kill either for themselves or their team (if tanks build only health & armor/magic resist, then they don't build damage - hence, little/no kill potential).

Vlada CutMay 12, 20181 votes

Just want to change something in his kit that will let him use Aftershock or chnge his W around it. That would benefit with taking kiting dmg a lot easier. Or make a use of his manaless state, something.... lore related to his magic absorbting armor.

OmegasisXMay 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Just want to change something in his kit that will let him use Aftershock or chnge his W around it. That would benefit with taking kiting dmg a lot easier. Or make a use of his manaless state, something.... lore related to his magic absorbting armor.

Garen's W used to grant bonus armor & magic resist, but that was lost when they gave him the passive (up to) 30 additional armor & magic resist.

As for aftershock, Garen's silence doesn't count as hard CC, so it can't trigger it. They would have to rework something in his kit to make it do so.

Vlada CutMay 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Garen's W used to grant bonus armor & magic resist, but that was lost when they gave him the passive (up to) 30 additional armor & magic resist.

As for aftershock, Garen's silence doesn't count as hard CC, so it can't trigger it. They would have to rework something in his kit to make it do so.

Thanks for not reading my post.** I said Garen should get a form of hard CC so he can use Aftershock**, not that his current Q can proc it. "Oh but he's a Juggernaut he can't have ~" oh yeah, how about darius who can pull AND slow and additionally heal, while Garen can only silence and have heal over time if you combine dd and ravenous hunter with his E...

OmegasisXMay 18, 20181 votes

Thanks for not reading my post.** I said Garen should get a form of hard CC so he can use Aftershock**, not that his current Q can proc it.

Fair enough. I thought I answered the question properly, but upon further review I can see that I did not. The only way Garen could have a hard form of cc is if his silence provided a stun, or was somehow an AoE skillshot instead of a targeted ability. But to be honest, I don't see Riot giving Garen anything of the sort.

"Oh but he's a Juggernaut he can't have ~" oh yeah, how about darius who can pull AND slow and additionally heal, while Garen can only silence and have heal over time if you comvine dd and ravenous hunter with his E...

I agree Garen should have in combat healing, but it would have to be something related to his W (such as healing for a percentage of missing health during the duration), unless his Judgment would grant him essentially spellvamp.

Vlada CutMay 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Fair enough. I thought I answered the question properly, but upon further review I can see that I did not. The only way Garen could have a hard form of cc is if his silence provided a stun, or was somehow an AoE skillshot instead of a targeted ability. But to be honest, I don't see Riot giving Garen anything of the sort.

I agree Garen should have in combat healing, but it would have to be something related to his W (such as healing for a percentage of missing health during the duration), unless his Judgment would grant him essentially spellvamp.

On the other hand, fixing his Q to feel more like a 1 AA reset would be nice. Then I can consider using Conqueror efficiently on him.

OmegasisXMay 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

On the other hand, fixing his Q to feel more like a 1 AA reset would be nice. Then I can consider using Conqueror efficiently on him.

Technically it is, but I know what you mean. I'm not sure what the exact cast time is, but i takes like half a second before his Q actually hits, and for league that can be the difference between getting a kill & surviving / not. That IS something they might do, but we'll see.

Vlada CutMay 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Technically it is, but I know what you mean. I'm not sure what the exact cast time is, but i takes like half a second before his Q actually hits, and for league that can be the difference between getting a kill & surviving / not. That IS something they might do, but we'll see.

It'd be also nice if his base attack speed was high enough for him to do aa resets with his Q. Another thing about his Q is that it's bugged. It procs static shiv before he actually silences someone lol.

OmegasisXMay 28, 20181 votes

It'd be also nice if his base attack speed was high enough for him to do aa resets with his Q. Amother thing about his Q is that it's bugged. It procs static shiv before he actually silences someone lol.

Yeah, I made note of this in another post, so thank you. It would be nice for the game mechanics to be consistent within themselves.

Critmaster GarenMay 23, 20181 votes

i dont mind as terrible of an early game as nasus, if he would scale into mid/lategame like nasus.

imo he scales stronger into lategame than he used to. especially with the appropriate runes. but its still not quite enough.

before they do anything else with his kit, id want them to do some tweaks to his animations, shorten the timer on his spin cancel, remove the lockout from being able to cast his w during his q animation, make his q animation speed scale up with champion level, improve the targeting mechanism on villainy.

there is so much they could do already with his existing kit, that would just make him less clunky to play, without even changing anything major about his mechanics.

i remember when the addition and removal of Darius pull during enemy dashes caused 4% winrate rises and drops for him. making a champion kit more reliable and fluent by improving minor mechanics and animations can already make a massive difference to his competitive viability.

i think the most potential fo improvement in terms of reworking ability mechanics is currently still in his passive. if they could make it more versatile to be useful to be able to stay in lane, but also add sustain through extended fights like Volibear passive, then with the new atmas hed probably do a lot better in extended engagement.

Critmaster GarenMay 23, 20181 votes

honestly, they should just work grasp of the undying somehow into garens kit, and make it useful for him in and out of combat.

if he could just get a 2% max health damage and heal proc on auto attacks every 3 seconds that he could use on minions, it would basically have a similar effect to his current passive, while being useful in combat with enemy champions.

convert the damage into true damage against villains, and replace it with the current 1% max health true damage on every auto attack, and call it a day.

how about this?

incease his base health regeneration slightly.

** perseverance**

garens next auto attack against enemy champions deals 2% of his max health in physical damage and heals him for 4% of his missing health (3 second cooldown).

takedowns on minions and monsters trigger the heal and reset the cooldown.

if youre forced to play passive in lane, you sustain by lasthitting minions.

if youre playing aggressive, you can sustain through longer fights by smacking people in the face.

it would be a more versatile approach to garens passive. the downside is, no regeneration when not going for minions.

OmegasisXMay 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wleGKdXn,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-05-23T11:32:34.122+0000)

honestly, they should just work grasp of the undying somehow into garens kit, and make it useful for him in and out of combat.

if he could just get a 2% max health damage and heal proc on auto attacks every 3 seconds that he could use on minions, it would basically have a similar effect to his current passive, while being useful in combat with enemy champions.

Truthfully, if a Garen player really wanted to have this playstyle, Riot would just say take Grasp of the Undying as your Keystone Rune. It's that simple.

convert the damage into true damage against villains, and replace it with the current 1% max health true damage on every auto attack, and call it a day.

Poeple have complained all-around percent health true damage is too OP for Garen, which is why only the True Villain has it. I personally advocated for something like this; just don't know if we'd get to see it in action.

it would be a more versatile approach to garens passive. the downside is, no regeneration when not going for minions.

If you want to make Garen's passive more versatile, then perhaps it could be changed to be more relevant in teamfights but still allow the enemy team to (partially) work around it:

Perseverance

When Garen receives damage, his regeneration is halved (1/4% & 4/8% at levels 1/11) while on CD.

This would make him have in-combat sustain that the enemy team can still partially mitigate during a fight. Executioner's calling would also be relevant against Garen now.

Either this, or give his Judgment spellvamp by itself:

Garen reinvigorates his conviction through combat, healing for 25% of the damage dealt by his Judgment against enemy champions & epic monsters.

DanyojaMay 25, 20181 votes

I like this cause it fits Garen more personally. While I know once you hit 11 your passive is decent, it never made sense to me why Garen had a passive where he had to back off to suck his thumb and heal, his whole M-O should be to get in and stay in like every other Juggernaut fighter, he the only one without in-combat sustain and I think that's what hurts him most.

To go off on your idea. I think it would be more balanced and likely if it only healed Garen and didn't actually deal damage. So heals lets say 2% of max heath over 5 seconds (5 second CD), but on a champ the effects are tripled. Maybe it can proc whenever he deals damage and refreshes instantly when he activates courage or damages a villain.