My Thoughts on Balancing Jhin to be a better Champion.

Jhín·Feb 18, 2019·6 votes·3,827 views

Hello Summoners,

I'm writing this today because I want to share my thoughts and concerns about Jhin and how he is a Champion that is too reliant on Patches and Items and how he can be buffed so this could become not such a large of an issue. I have been playing Jhin exclusively since his release on the PBE and instantly fell in love and knew that I would not be playing any other Champion the same way. I have over 2 Million points on him across all my accounts and have a Career in QA/Design in the Video Game Industry, so in terms of Champion/Design knowledge I feel like I am qualified to talk about how he can be changed in a way that is healthy for the Game and more importantly, healthy for Jhin. My goal here is to create a discussion (preferably with Riot themselves) about way to change Jhin so that he is more reliable on a Patch by Patch basis and has less focus on the Items in the game being strong which generally makes Jhin strong (I.E. The “Meta”). I believe that ultimately entails changes to his Kits EFFECTS and not so much meaningless Stat or Damage Number increases (except for one Stat that I will get into later). I am seeing many Virtuoso complaining about the state of Jhin and unfourjhinately their voice is not being heard and it saddens me as I share some of their concerns and wish that someone would speak out about it. That does not seem to be happening so I will take it upon myself to speak for them and get Jhin into a spot where he can perform his deathly acts of beauty to all Runeterra. So, Let the Curtain Rise!

In this discussion I will be going through each Ability and explaining how it can be changed in a way that can more reliably dish out damage and allow Jhin to compete with other Champions that reside in the Bot Lane, but not in a way that will make the Champion overtly stronger than all others.

Let's start with his Passive: Whisper

I would consider this to be one of the most important changes to his Kit in order to make him better as a Champion and less reliant on Patches and Items. If no other change is accepted and discussed, I want at least this change to be seriously considered.
I believe that Jhin absolutely needs to have his Attack Speed Growth Increased. Jhin currently starts the Game with 0.625 Attack Speed and scales up to 0.943 at Level 18.
What I am proposing is increasing the Growth of the Attack Speed from Level 1-18. Still starting at 0.625, but at Level 18 his max Attack Speed would come out to 1.234.
To compensate for this increase in Attack Speed, I recommend lowering his Attack Damage Conversion on Whisper (Passive), and adding in the increased amount of Critical Strikes able to be achieved, it should still be a net positive in DPS.
After many tests on the Practice Tool with other Champions using a similar Attack Speed, it still feels slow to their standards, but it would feel amazing for Jhin and allow him to compete in duels, skirmishes, and teamfights much more efficiently. I do not believe this amount of Attack Speed is too much for Jhin.
Most Games do not reach the Level 18 point anyway, so this will still not be achievable in some games, but the Levels prior will give him a fighting chance.
I would argue the most important reason to make this change is it would allow Jhin to make more use of the extremely RNG reliant Critical Strike system that has been put back into place due to the 9.3 Crit Item changes.
After many Ranked Games using these new items, it feels very bad not having the Attack Speed to hopefully get a Crit faster than a Jinx can Minigun Form out 5 Crits in the time it takes to dole out 4 Shots from Whisper using just an Infinity Edge. He will be effectively attacking more often, allowing him to Crit more often as well, which makes him more reliable to changes in items as just being able to attack slightly more without Crits is still a DPS positive.

Q: Dancing Grenade

This is an Ability that lacks a fundamental effect that would overall positively influence his DPS and Waveclear capabilities.
What I am suggesting is that when Jhin casts Dancing Grenade (Q), regardless of enemies in the surrounding area, it will bounce 4 times.
For example, in an isolated 2v1 Bot Lane matchup where Jhin's Support is roaming and the enemy team engages on him with no enemy minions around, he will cast Dancing Grenade (Q) and the Grenade will bounce between both Champions 4 times (2 times each). No extra damage is added as the grenade hasn't killed a unit, but he is able to more efficiently fight and defend himself when being attacked. Only when every unit dies in the vicinity of the Dancing Grenade will it vanish from existence as it should.
If there is 1 enemy, it will bounce a single time and disappear.
I also propose that the Dancing Grenade (Q) will prioritize Marked Champions and consume the Mark. While still Marking enemies that were not already Marked for future use with W and my proposed Ultimate.

W: Deadly Flourish

I find this Ability overall to be a decent Ability and does not need to be changed much at all, but I have a few suggestions in making this Ability flow better with his Kit.
Firstly, Deadly Flourish (W) has a confusing hitbox and its clarity around if it will hit or not is not exactly clear especially to someone who does not play a lot of Jhin and is aware of the exact hitbox.
On the immediate cast of the Ability, the hitbox is exactly as it should be. Matching exactly to where and how it will snare an enemy. However, it then thins out during the cast animation then confusing the caster as to where exactly the hit box starts and where the hitbox ends.
I believe there should be a constant line of where the skillshot is going to hit and the animation does not thin out in any way.
Secondly, I believe that Deadly Flourish needs to both MARK and consume the Marks of people affected by Caught Out.
This is in conjunction with my proposed Dancing Grenade (Q) prioritization as well as my Ultimate change that I will talk about shortly.

E: Captive Audience

I have two possible ways to change this Ability, however both involve the removal of the Beauty in Death Passive that is currently on the Ability.
I strongly believe that this Passive is too niche and does nothing for Jhin in terms of fighting people straight out and it relies too heavily on the enemy team making a mistake rather than the skill of the Jhin player.

My first idea was to make it so that Captive Audience (E) only stores 1 charge, however the Recharge Rate is lowered (For the record this is my preferred change).

An infinite number of Traps can still be placed.
The Traps constantly reapply the Caught Out Passive in order to make use of the proposed Dancing Grenade (Q) change and provides an incentive to Trap under him so he is able to cast Dancing Grenade (Q) inside of a minion Wave and the Grenade will keep bouncing back to the Marked Target.

My second idea is giving Jhin 4 Traps at Ability Level 1. (Alternatively, he could have a scaling Trap number such as 1-4 Traps from Ability Level 1-5).

Only a Maximum of 4 Traps can be stored and placed on the Map at a time.
The Slow is increased to 50%. The Damage Scaling can be increased to 140% AD.
Traps stay on the Map for a longer duration.
The Constant application of the Caught Out Passive still applies on these Traps as well.

R: Curtain Call

This Ability is bread and butter and does not need any crazy changes as it is unique to Jhin and has many uses. However, there are some changes that I want to suggest allowing Curtain Call (R) to be more useful in his overall Kit and for Champion flow throughout the Game.
I believe that the Slow from hitting each shot should be removed entirely and instead replaced with the ability to Proc the Caught Out Passive applied to enemies from the Dancing Grenade (Q), Deadly Flourish (W), Captive Audience (E), and Ally damage.
If hitting an enemy that has no mark currently on them, it will instead Mark that enemy and then the next Shot would then Root them again if he happens to cast Curtain Call in isolation.
Marks can be constantly Procced on the same enemy if firing upon someone who is being damage by an Ally or Captive Audience (E).
Root duration is still only increased with the Ability Level of Deadly Flourish (W).
An Alternative to this is Marked enemies who are struck by a Bullet from Curtain Call (R) will be greatly Slowed or Slowed for a longer Duration.

So that really sums up most of my thoughts on how you can balance Jhin to be a better Champion and allow him to compete with other Bot Lane picks on a Patch by Patch basis. I truly believe that he is a Champion who is negatively (and positively) affected by Patch Changes the most out of the Marksman Class and that shouldn't be the case. He should be viable based off of the Player Skill in using the Champion's Kit effectively and Items should only assist in that regard. If none of these changes work for the Game or make Jhin completely busted (or garbage), I ask that you, please, PLEASE, just consider giving Jhin more Attack Speed Growth so he can do more in each Game that he is picked in.

If anyone else has any suggestions for how Riot can balance Jhin to make him less dependent on the Meta, please leave a comment. I really want to see what everyone else thinks about this topic and also how many people agree or disagree with me. Also, please refute my ideas as well, I want this to be a discussion about what is best for Jhin as a Champion going forward. So, if you feel an idea I had would never work in Today's League of Legends, please tell me, but don't forget to explain your reasoning.

[TL;DR] I want Jhin to have an Attack Speed Growth of 0.625 - 1.234.

Thank you all for reading. I had to say something. Jhín of the "Jhin" Club

37 Comments

SpeeedyFeb 18, 20191 votes

the problem is hes slightly weak right now and you are saying a massive buff to him, he has to lose power somewhere for your Q change and his AS growth

JhínFeb 18, 20191 votes

I would say that I do agree that he needs to lose power in the base damage of his Q if that change were to be applied to Jhin. Although I do not think the unit kill bonus damage should be changed at all.

However, I believe that if ONLY the Attack Speed Growth change were to be implemented, he wouldn't need a power down as it would only be slight buff to his DPS. If anything, perhaps lowering the AD conversion rate of his Passive so that it gives less AD to compensate for the increased number of attacks he is getting off. It should still be a DPS positive considering he will have more chances to Crit over each game.

ThreshHubFeb 18, 20191 votes

I always considered jhin a champ that, when meta, is too strong and, when not meta, he is basically a troll pick. He really needs some changes but the root on his r, even without the slow, seems kinda strong for catching people for your team.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I completely agree with you about him being just very strong when hes Meta and very weak when he's not. I also agree that he needs some changes, and I still believe the changes have to be in the form of some new effect in his Kit rather than number changes. He needs a more reliable way to dish out DPS in every game, his auto attacks are just not doing enough with the RNG Crit system in 9.3. If they didn't go the route of increasing his DPS, I feel like the Root mechanic, or extended slow duration/slow intensity would be more useful to enhance his long range pick potential. Maybe reducing the Root timer all together to 0.5 of a second or so.

BisaknospFeb 19, 20191 votes

saw that you want his as increased at later lvl's and stopped reading after that (tired xd) so idk if you said it afterwards

if they are going to do that they have to reduce the ad and ms his passive gives him otherwise he would be too overbearing and even harder to catch than he is now (if you dont have point and click cc)

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I didn't say it in the post, but I said it in a comment to someone else, and I agree. After thinking about it I believe it would be best to reduce the Attack Damage conversion on his Passive to compensate for the increased Attack Speed Growth. However, I still do think that it would be a net positive in DPS for Jhin as he will be able to Crit more often because he's attacking more.

SanKakUFeb 19, 20191 votes

I don't like how you mentioned buffing his passive but not nerfing it also. Right now his passive is insane because he gets to deal bonus damage based on missing health so you basically want to buff him without a nerf it seems like a really bad idea. However, like the idea of him having 1.234 attack speed because it kind of looks like he's counting to the number 4. But that's the only reason I like it at all. But really, that's kind of just a meme. His attack speed already is a huge change in the late game to the next game a lot of inexperienced players will falter by forgetting that he has lower attack speed at level 1, but hey... why not just suggest he starts off with more attack speed and then on top of that cut down the bonus damage the passive gives? People are spamming ignite supports right now because they want to give their Jhin ally more passive damage.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

Yes this has been brought a couple times now, so I will rewrite my rebuttal to this in the post itself, but you are correct. I believe that the Passive AD conversion rate needs to be lowered in order to compensate for the increased Attack Speed, however him being able to Crit more often I think makes up for this and is why I find it to be a viable alternative.

As far as giving him a higher Attack Speed early game, I don't feel that is the correct way to go about balancing him as I think he already has a decently strong early game, but he tends to have more difficulty trading and fighting when purchasing his first Crit item (Infinity Edge). I used Jinx as an example, but if Jhin and Jinx were to stand and auto each other, Jhin would be, by definition, lucky to get 1 Crit on Jinx in his first 3 auto attacks (4th shot not included) whereas Jinx will 100% Crit, probably multiple times, in the amount of time it takes Jhin to Fire 4 Shots and then Reload. With more Attack Speed, even if he doesnt Crit, he will cycle through his 4th shot at a faster rate and be able to more efficiently use the Infinity Edge Passive.

SanKakUFeb 19, 20191 votes

I don't think his critical strike scaling is the problem, but rather his bonus damage based on missing health. I could be wrong, but that's completely the way I see it.

You really didn't give an opinion on my suggestion to chop off some of the bonus damage. Have you not read the entire passive ability recently or are you ignoring part of my post on purpose?

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I am not talking about his Crit scaling, I am just saying that with more attacks he will Crit more thus increasing his overall DPS.

As far as the Missing Health bonus damage he receives. I do not feel that is something that needs to be touched because where Jhin gets a lot of his damage from is his insanely high amount of bonus AD scaling, which could be nerfed to compensate for Critting more.

SanKakUFeb 19, 20191 votes

Another thought which entered my mind immediately but I'm guessing someone would have brought up by now that you didn't seem to mention is that Jhin could have his reload time increased to make up for the increased attack speed. I'm not sure how practical that would be as a balancing lever and TBH I feel like touching his passive in such invasive ways that you are suggesting could do more harm than good for Jhin players and their allies. That's why I am proposing nerfing his passive's bonus damage based on missing health and find another way to buff him if a buff is even warranted after that. I think he's currently too strong.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I believe someone has brought this up on the Reddit thread I made in tandem with this, and I think that increasing his reload time wouldn't be a bad idea if he was given increased attack speed, the only issue I'm seeing with this is the Movement Speed he receives would not last long enough while hes trying to run away while reloading and it hes extra vulnerable to enemy all-in, but then I suppose that gives them a window to capitalize on him as he is Reloading, and if he gets the Reload off, then he will be a large threat again, especially considering he has much more attack speed.

If he got his Passive Missing HP nerfed, he would be much weaker and would absolutely need buffs to compensate for that. He is one of the lowest Winrate Marksman at the moment and he is struggling.

SanKakUFeb 19, 20191 votes

He's being played pretty much constantly though, so clearly some unskilled players are dragging down the win rate. I don't think you fully understand how win rates work.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

He is not picked at all in my ELO, granted I am usually the one picking him, but I am mostly seeing prioritization on Caitlyn, Ezreal, Draven, Jinx, Kai'Sa, Lucian, Sivir, Vayne, and Tristana. That may be true but I am looking at analytics for Diamond+ so I'm not even factoring in the Pick to Ban Rate below that. Regardless, there are many unskilled Jhin players, but the problem is even a player with high skill on the Champion, it's much harder to perform well and be an impact in a game due to his Kit and the way he scales into a game with an RNG Crit system.

4 Step CadenceFeb 19, 20191 votes

I am... Far too sick to read and understand all that.

I agree on the attack speed, though.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

Thank you anyway!

4 Step CadenceFeb 19, 20191 votes

You're welcome!

General MattyFeb 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=4 Step Cadence,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wZx0eVhu,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-02-19T02:50:41.172+0000)

I am... Far too sick to read and understand all that.

I agree on the attack speed, though.

Aw man that sucks hope you get better.

4 Step CadenceFeb 19, 20191 votes

Thank you, friend.

SaiannaFeb 19, 20191 votes

If anything I'd rather see his flower-trap upgraded, as it's the only ability, that deals no real damage at any point of the game (unless you went AP) and requires the most setup (the snipe-cc)

It's the very same ability as old caitlyn had with her traps. It's an utility ability meant to give jhin time to run away.

Secondly I'd like to see Jhins snipe-cc to have bigger impact. Not even damage wise, but the feel of the ability. It feels very mediocre. I wouldn't mind some low AP ratio added, like 0.1

Other than that.. Eh it's fine I guess?

Oh, how about his reload time is affected by CDR? I wonder how that would work

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I agree that his Traps feel very lackluster and do not do much every game, the only time the damage is worth anything is when he is 6 items and the 120% AD Ratio can do meaningful things. The issue I have is Jhin is building 2 Attack Speed items that basically do nothing for the damage of Traps and while hes building those items his traps are just sheer utility that's fairly unreliable. If anything I feel like the Recharge Rate needs to be lowered so more Traps can be placed at a time.

I like the Idea of having the Reload Timer affected by CDR, I also think it could be affected by Attack Speed, however I do not believe the Reload time is an issue and it would make him too closely related to Graves in that sense. CDR is still unique in that sense, but his Reload Timer shouldn't be touched especially if he is given more Attack Speed.

SaiannaFeb 19, 20191 votes

Shorter recharge of simply utility ability won't change the fact it's still just an utility :/

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

It wouldn't, but he would be able to place more traps on the Map thus being able to control more of the map himself, fend off of ganks, Trap the enemy jungle with his support. Currently the highest winrate skill order is not even leveling Traps until Level 10 as the increased Root duration and damage on W is much more effective each game than a Trap, but if it were possible to have more Traps able to be placed and defend himself, it might look like a more appealing option.

General MattyFeb 19, 20191 votes

We need you on the balance team

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

Haha, I just want Jhin to be more reliable.

Thank you though!

PoskeFeb 19, 20191 votes

Ok so the problem with Jhin is that he is near troll pick status in high elo

High Elo AD carry mains are all good at orbwalking / kiting

With jhin those mechanics dont matter. Unless somewhere in your thread which I didnt read you had meantioned that this things should matter which literaly strip away jhin from being jhin you arent fixing Jhin. In other words he is doomed ;/

Another thing is Jhin being extremly ineffective if none is at LOW HP making jhin better when you have good teammates but bad else His R is also quite unreliable / non scarry

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I know and I agree. I believe that with my suggested Attack Speed increase he will greatly increase his need to efficiently Orbwalk/Kite because he will just be able to. At the moment it's near impossible to do it without, yes, troll picking him. Most of my suggestion require the Jhin show show his true skill expression with the Champion, and if done correctly, has meaningful payoffs making it so that he is useful OUTSIDE of the enemy players being at a Low HP threshold.

I am also not stripping away his identity as Jhin, or fully reworking him, I am just suggesting things that could potentially make him a more viable pick on a Patch to Patch basis and just overall.

PoskeFeb 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I know and I agree. I believe that with my suggested Attack Speed increase he will greatly increase his need to efficiently Orbwalk/Kite because he will just be able to. At the moment it's near impossible to do it without, yes, troll picking him. Most of my suggestion require the Jhin show show his true skill expression with the Champion, and if done correctly, has meaningful payoffs making it so that he is useful OUTSIDE of the enemy players being at a Low HP threshold.

I am also not stripping away his identity as Jhin, or fully reworking him, I am just suggesting things that could potentially make him a more viable pick on a Patch to Patch basis and just overall.

Look I dont give af about Jhin identity and gameplay, also never did, If you are increasing his attackspeed he ll feel way less like Jhin yet that is required for him to see play in High elo. You need to think of a cute solution for this which isnt increasing his attackspeed

Thats the only way you ll keep Jhins identity but turn him into a high elo viable champion and not just Oh I am autofilled might aswell pick this useless champion and make people dodge

Now If I cared about jhin at all I would read your thread and tell you if what you are suggesting helps but I just cant bring myself to do it... You prob know what you are doing given that you understood my concern without reading the wall of text

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

Thank you for your response I appreciate it. Jhin is not for everyone, and I think it's because he has glaring issues that High ELO players recognize and that do not want to be a part of that when Champions like Lucian/Draven/Vayne/Twitch/Jinx/Sivir exist.

However, I do not feel that Jhin's Attack Speed is what makes Jhin, Jhin. I believe what makes Jhin feel like Jhin is that he gets no increased Attack Speed, from any source, has 4 Shots, receives Movement Speed from Critical Strikes, and a guaranteed Missing HP Critical Strike 4th Shot.

Anime FizzFeb 19, 20191 votes

"My main isnt broken anymore please make him broken as shit again so i can climb again"

Basically this thread.

Why do ppl even upvote this? Like its so blatant.

JhínFeb 19, 20192 votes

Thank you for your response!

I don't want Jhin to be broken, I only want him to have meaningful changes that allow him to still be a mid-tier pick from each patch, just as every Champion should be. At the moment, Jhin is either Top-tier, or bottom-tier. There is usually no in-between for him, which in my mind I find to be a design flaw. Winning games should come from being able to use the Champions Kit each game in a meaningful way and being able to adapt the playstyle depending on the ally team, match-ups etc.

Anime FizzFeb 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for your response!

I don't want Jhin to be broken, I only want him to have meaningful changes that allow him to still be a mid-tier pick from each patch, just as every Champion should be. At the moment, Jhin is either Top-tier, or bottom-tier. There is usually no in-between for him, which in my mind I find to be a design flaw. Winning games should come from being able to use the Champions Kit each game in a meaningful way and being able to adapt the playstyle depending on the ally team, match-ups etc.

Hes already mid tier.

And you just suggested a huge buff to him out of nowhere, you cant fool me like htat.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

I would disagree that he is currently mid-tier, at best I believe he is somewhere below average. Currently his winrate has been steadily dropping since patch 8.24 and since 9.3 has seen the largest dip since then. I know winrates do not determine a Champions viability most of the time, but for Jhin I feel like it does especially when he hes good his winrate is always high and when hes bad his winrate is always low.

The thigh guyFeb 19, 20191 votes

My suggestion would be make it so he doesn’t get ad for 4 different stats.

And reduce the time he can hold his 4th shot and increase his reload speed.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

Jhin receives Bonus Attack Damage from Critical Strike Chance, Bonus Attack Speed, and obviously Attack Damage.

I actually like being able to reduce how long he can hold his 4th Shot for, if the Recharge Rate for Traps were to be faster, then Jhin would still be able to reset his timer more often, but I would suggest 7.5 seconds, nothing too drastic. I still believe his reload speed should stay the same.

SanKakUFeb 19, 20191 votes

I also like the idea of reducing how long he can hold the 4th shot for. In the current damage meta it feels really bad. This is one thing I'm completely on board with you about Jhin. This would do a lot to put in line the potential of what his fourth shot can do which is my primary concern which goes unaddressed in your base argument. If it were nerfed sufficiently but not so much that Jhin players feel cheated, there would be no need to lower the missing HP bonus damage.

JhínFeb 19, 20191 votes

Yeah the more I think about it the more I like the idea of decreasing the duration he can hold his 4th Shot for and I think I will now include it in my post, but only if he is given a way to reset it more often (I.E lower trap cooldown). As a Jhin player you want to be able to sit on it and plan for how you want to use his most powerful bullet. However if you change that mechanic then all of the other bullets must follow the same rules as it is a 10 second window until Jhin automatically reloads Whisper.