Rengar: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and some Sollutions

TheJan1tor··27 votes·1,892 views
Rengar: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and some Solutions. * r/leagueoflegends

Folks on Reddit don't seem nearly as supportive as the folks on the League Forums so I'm posting/linking the discussion here

I'll also preface this by saying I was a long time Rengar main, and played mostly Rengar Seasons 3-6. Additionally I have experience in game design, so I understand some of the jargon and thought process Riot has to go through when taking on a project such as reworking or rebalancing a champion or game mechanic.

With that being said, let's get into it...

#Old Rengar: The Murder Cat
When players think of the Old Rengar, one of two things come to mind depending in which perspective they took. Either they were the Rengar, who enjoyed the feeling of chasing down unsuspecting prey and eviscerating them in the blink of an eye -- or they were the victim who more often than not experienced a great deal of frustration.

###The Good
Rengar was incredibly fun to play. He had a clear identity, and fit his theme as a Hunter stalking Helpless Prey far too well.

###The Bad
The fun that Rengar players experienced came at the expense of his victims. With the exception of "Bush Outplays" players would Never say "that was pretty cool" after being killed by a Rengar after receiving no warning.
Rengar was able to walk right through your team and kill you without your team being able to do a thing for you except get revenge. What's worse, Rengar would continue getting stronger and stronger by killing you over and over and you just had to live with it.

This was not fun. This has to be changed.

###The Ugly
Rengar's passive allowed him to abuse the same player(s) over and over again, accumulating a multitude of bonuses that he would not lose upon dying (there was a time where you lost these bonuses, but this made Rengar too inconsistent and a change was made to his passive to keep bonuses permanently)

Rengar's Stealth allowed him to walk Through a team fight instead of Around it like a true Assassin should.

Rengar's Ultimate gave virtually no information to the enemy, allowing him to engage from a distance and Attack before the enemy was able to react.

#The New Rengar
The rework attacked every one of Rengar's major issues, but also attacked issues that others Mistook for issues (ie, Rengar's 1 shot combo, his Q, and the vision utility of his ultimate).

###The Good
Rengar is healthy! His prey are no longer helpless and abused. Players on the receiving end of a Rengar ultimate are given time to react and reposition themselves to avoid being picked off.
Rengar also has a means of Surviving his all-in engage rather than leaping into a team fight to kill one or more enemies before likely dying.

###The Bad
The information gained by both teams through Rengar's Ultimate is still unfair. The entire enemy team knows where Rengar is, but Rengar only knows where the nearest enemy is.
Additionally, the range that this information is given by creates too much of a cushion between Rengar and the enemy team. Unless Rengar ults for an enemy nearly within Leap Range, the enemy is able to simply walk away.

Rengar's new survival mechanic promotes a Bruiser build path and play style rather than those of an Assassin.

###The Ugly
The logic behind the Q changes is that the Old Q had too little counterplay. If he could leap to you, you were going to take damage without the use of an Unvulnerability skill. However, there was a clear way of fixing this issue without changing the core of Rengar's bread and butter ability, which will be discussed below.

The logic behind the new W is that the Old W was lackluster, and by making these changes Rengar will have to be Reactive rather than Proactive, and be forced to make a decision between waiting before using it (to maximize the healing) and using it asap (but wasting the heal) in order to get to max Ferocity faster and dealing extra Damage with an Empowered Q.
However, this ability is far too abusable both in lane as well as in team fights, and creates a huge gap in the effectiveness of Bruiser builds and Assassin builds. Even worse, this new W is so powerful that it's singlehandedly redefined Rengar from an Assassin to "Diver". This tells me that Q is no longer what defines Rengar, but his W.

So what can be done?
#Possible Solutions

###Trophies and Thrill of the Hunt.
Two distinct problems come to mind regarding Rengar's current TotH.
1.) The threat indicator range coupled with Rengar's Movement speed.
2.) The number of enemies Rengar can see.
I feel that resolving Both of these issues may be a bit overkill and would effectively revert his Ult -- so let's approach this as if we're going to only fix 1 issue and leave the rest to the Player to resolve.

Regardless of which change we intend to make, there's a common change I'd like to make to both iterations.Remove the Free Crit, but keep the Indicator (enemies Do need some readability on Rengar's ultimate for Health issues -- it's just a matter of balancing the Threat Distance and Movespeed Rengar has to compensate.

1.) If we keep the Range that enemies receive the Threat Indicator as 2000/3000/4000 units, then we need to give Rengar a chance to Chase and Catch his intended prey. In order to do this, I think it would be appropriate to give Rengar movement speed as a Trophy Reward. For example -

Rengar gains 8 Bonus Movement Speed (Per Trophy) while Out of Combat. Additionally, Rengar gains 20% Bonus movement speed (Per Trophy) while Camouflaged.

Why? This will give Rengar the mobility he needs to find and chase down his intended target if they've wandered to far away from their team.

2.) If we keep the current Movement speed that Rengar enjoys during TotH, then we need to change a couple things -- specifically the number of targets Rengar can see and the way enemies receive information about TotH.
For example -

Rengar lets out a monstrous roar, alerting all enemy champions (global sound, similar to Kled, Sion, Nocturne, etc) and gaining 40% bonus movement speed and true sight of all enemy champions within 2000/3000/4000 units. The nearest enemy champion within 2000 units receives the mark for Thrill of the Hunt (no free crit, this is purely an exchange of information so that the enemy team has Some sort of readability on his ultimate).

In an attempt to make things a bit more fair, the number of units revealed by TotH can scale with Trophy Count (ie, you see 1 target by default. +1 at 1 Trophy, +2 at 2.... you can see up to 5 targets at 4 Trophies. For argument's sake let's say you get a free crit at 5 trophies or something, and with the Head of KhaZix let's just say the vision is Global or something -- idk.

The core idea here is Rengar either needs to be able to move a Lot faster to close the gap enemies can make in the time they have to react, or the Range of the Threat Indicator needs to be lowered drastically to allow Rengar to get into position to catch his prey.

###Savagery
Rengar's Q was his bread and butter, a defining ability in his kit. There were clear problems with it (bugs that often prevented him from using on-hit effects such as Trinity Force, and allowing the damage to follow through Dash/Blink abilities).
In order to satisfy both parties, we should bring back the Enhanced AA version of Q in all it's glory (attack speed steroid, AD steroid on empowered cast, etc). However, it should be changed to allow enemies to Dodge the damage if they've timed a Dash/Blink ability properly (similar to Skarner R, Fizz Q, etc).

###Battle Roar
The problem I have with the current W is that it was intended to allow Rengar to survive when he jumps in to kill a target. However, in order to kill that target, we have to pump out as much damage as we can (cast Empowered Q) as quickly as possible. And in order to do that, we have to burn W before we've started taking damage -- wasting the heal entirely.
This means we're better off building Bruiser, dealing respectable damage through Q and chasing with enhanced Movespeed and Autos, abusing the massive healing from W/Empowered W, Visage passive, and DD. It's neither fun for Rengar nor the player that unloads their entire combo only to have Rengar walk right through everything virtually unscathed.
We need an ability that can help us survive an engage, but won't be abused by beefier builds. This means we need something that scales off of Damage, not Health. For example-

Rengar gains a Physical Damage shield for 3 seconds (Base value + Bonus AD Scaling).
(Empowered) While the shield persists, Rengar is immune to Crowd Control effects.

Effectively, a self-casted Morgana shield that absorbs Physical Damage rather than Magic Damage. Additionally the base value of this shield can scale with the number of nearby enemies in order to avoid being Overwhelming in 1v1 situations, but not so underwhelming in Team Fights.

###Final Comments
This is all I had time for today. Apologies if I started to become incoherent towards the end. As I was typing this up I was actually thinking of a completely new concept for a Rework and may have lost some of the details I intended to share here -- perhaps down the road I'll share the details of what I'd like to see Rengar remade into. But for now, I think this is a good starting place to at least get Rengar back into shape while retaining what makes him healthier than what he was prior to the rework.

31 Comments

Rengooo4 votes

10/10, I personally find the allure of a shield that is completely reliant on bonus AD but short lived like Rivens shield much more interesting than both just bonus resistances or the abusable damage healed mechanic.

Rengars affinity with crit would likely need to be addressed as well though if the Q were ti return..

TheJan1tor3 votes

{quoted} Rengars affinity with crit would likely need to be addressed as well though if the Q were ti return..

Possibly -- allthough given the changes that have been made to Armor Pen, and that ADC's now build items like Ninja Tabi, DD, and Cleaver I feel that Crit on Rengar wouldn't be nearly as big an issue as it used to be.

Rengooo2 votes

This is true, though probably still a hard thing to gauge without playtesting.

Rainfall3 votes

Rengar mains keep asking for a revert,i can tell you that that will never happen,the old rengar was constantly banned from ranked and had close to 0 counterplay. Most of his damage came from his autoattacks which is an unhealthy concept for an assasin,due to the many autoatttack based items in the game that exist to help tanks waveclear or help adcs deal more damage/waveclear. Maybe rengar will get another rework sometime but the old rengar is never coming back.

TheJan1tor5 votes

{quoted}

Rengar mains keep asking for a revert,i can tell you that that will never happen,the old rengar was constantly banned from ranked and had close to 0 counterplay.

Only I'm not asking for a Revert. I'm asking for another Rework. I acknowledged that there were problems with the old Rengar, but there were simple solutions that would've allowed him to keep his identity and role as an Assassin and Hunter rather than a "Diver" and Zonebot.

Most of his damage came from his autoattacks which is an unhealthy concept for an assasin,due to the many autoatttack based items in the game that exist to help tanks waveclear or help adcs deal more damage/waveclear.

I'm very curious to hear what Attack Speed items Tanks use for waveclear.

ReZisT Lust1 votes

item 3091 maybe if you wanna streatch it

I miss her1 votes

He's probably referring to Titanic Hydra, however it's mostly built by Bruisers, not by tanks

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Agree on this post... Except about Rengar be a diver or not. Seems like most of u don't understand what make him a diver or not. This isnt about his build nor OS or not. Its about him have options after go in.

He was already a Diver

Shablagoo14 votes

What having most damage based on autoattack is unhealthy? Twitch, autoattack dmg from 900 units with no way to dodge from stealth is healthy?

Rainfall2 votes

twitch takes 20 minutes to deal damage. also he has to suffer his bad waveclear in the jungle.

Shablagoo14 votes

And it took time for rengar to get to the oneshot point their is no difference, in fact twitch can comeback much easier if behind compared to rengar.

Rainfall1 votes

ok let me explain it to you as simply as possible. 3 autoattack resets and the hydra active mean more than 500% of his attack damage as damage in 2 seconds. Even with just base damages the damage was too high. do you know ANY champion in the game with something like that?

Shablagoo4 votes

I literally just gave you twitch, he is safer in fact and has aoe dmg that can literally obliterate a whole team in seconds. Orianna can do that much dmg in a teamfight while also stunning your entire team and turning a whole teamfight. Kass has amazing single target burst with more mobility and kills ppl in seconds. Syndra is able to r and completely destroy ur adc. The list goes on of burst potential in this game your just singling out rengar, because everyone circle-jerks it and low elo player refuse to accept the counterplay that it had and called it op. This game s has many champions with insane burst what is you point man? They literally could've kept the old kit and implimented the bleed system talon had instead gave us this low thought, no effort, brainless, sack of shit rework we have now. And in fact this new rengar takes no skill its r and q, you cant even mess the combo now cuz its so brainless, at least before you could mess it up.

I miss her3 votes

"constantly banned from ranked" maybe in bronze and silver that was the case

GULAG 4 U3 votes

AD hominem. Just because it had no counterplay on rengar, it doesn't mean there is on twitch.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

taking a unhealthy pick in example dont prove anysh*t.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

U have a good point, and the only one mattering : Healthy or Unhealthy. Old Rengar was bad, new too. They'll obviously rework him... again.

Most of his damage came from his autoattacks which is an unhealthy concept for an assasin

He isn't, and wasn't. He's a Diver.

ChaosThief2 votes

Running through the enemy team unnoticed is a pretty cool assassin concept though. But yeah, for the most part, the old Rengars were very unhealthy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2LpTxW2OEo

^is a good example of that.

New rengar kind of just tries to ram down his foe and doesn't really assassinate anymore unless fed.

Right, let's get into the abilities then.

His ult does need a change where he gains more than just see a single target and crit them. Maybe instead of just seeing every champion, Rengar casts his ult on a particular foe, and only gains the bonuses when hunting that target. This gives a more hunter feel since you picked the prey and plan to deliver, as well as a better warning for the enemy team who gain information on who to protect.

Maybe also add in a more interesting indicator. Instead of just "in range get indicator" the indicator depends on how much distance is between them. For instance, a closed eye for very far away (2000+), semi open eye for closer (1000-2000 units away) and a fully opened, vicious eye for when Rengar is almost there (1000 or less units.)

Next, his Q. I think we shouldn't make his Q an auto attack enhancement again, but we can do something similar. Remember Yasuo, the champion everyone hated? His Q technically is an auto attack, but at the same time it isn't, so we can use that for reference. Rengar can target a small area and stab his dagger into it, dealing physical damage to the targets in the area (acting as a basic attack to the target closest to rengar). A short delay for the opponents to react to.

Next, his W. I disagree with a shield, it promotes bruiser builds still because a bruiser can still build AD and has resistances to make it more effective. I would think a damage % reduction would work well (based purely off his bonus AD. Early on it's weak, later on it's strong.) A shield based on enemies hit probably would be easier to balance though.

Shablagoo3 votes

How old is that man their is no indicator

ChaosThief3 votes

Very old. That, my friend, was release rengar. Can you see why people hated (playing against) it?

Shablagoo4 votes

Ya I see it, but then they added a indicator. Dont even know why they didnt in the first place. Maybe if they had kept the new ult range and indicator with stealth it would be fair.

ChaosThief1 votes

The indicator was added I believe on the 1st rework of Rengar.

hitted1 votes

The Q, could be like Talon's Q. Not an auto reset/enhancer but targetable ability at close range.

TheJan1tor2 votes

{quoted}

The Q, could be like Talon's Q. Not an auto reset/enhancer but targetable ability at close range.

I don't think this is what the Rengar community is looking for.

Troll for Trump2 votes

Reddit is ADCland

GULAG 4 U1 votes

I can fell the salt flow through my veins whenever the adc mains pull their 2k17 nonsense.

I miss her1 votes

ADC is the role that decides the outcome of the game usually because it has the most carry potential tho

GULAG 4 U1 votes

ADC in 2k17 was the most retarded balance meme I've ever seen.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Even worse, this new W is so powerful that it's singlehandedly redefined Rengar from an Assassin to "Diver". This tells me that Q is no longer what defines Rengar, but his W.

Not related, to begin and if anyone is honest the old Rengar was a Divers. With the old u go in and finish. with an assassin u go in, then go out (zed, talon). Build don't mean anything.

But globaly i should say THANKS. Why thanks ?cause u developped ur point without just whine. I think Rengar should stay a diver. I mean if u wan't to a similare gameplay to the old... But they need to change the whole kit exept the ult and bola IMO. Because the old Q wasn't healthy, the new is clunky (its cool at first... but nothing more), the W is cool but this don't go along with rengo kit and how he function.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Good post. Looks at things from both perspective and isn't just circle jerk salt.

Silverjust1 votes

good ideas

If you remove the crit from rengars ult, there should be some other effect, so rengar is encouraged to jump at the marked target

Another problem are maybe the ferocity stacks. They encourage rengar to use all his skills at once to get the empowered skill as quikly as possible. Maybe the ferocity stacks should be removed and he should get a different acces to his empowered ability.

Another problem I noticed is that he is labeled an assasin, but has no real escape (except his W to survive) what makes him more a diver, so mabe he needs a similar escape to other assasins.

More from Gameplay

More by TheJan1tor