Teemo has a problem. Kennen & Gnar.

SantoJoe·4/6/2015, 12:11:06 PM·23 votes·4,946 views

Hello:

First of all, my profile: http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=santojoe https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDVUUxJxJyOWlWL8O8TfZUw

I'm one of those who likes playing Teemo, sorry, it's one of my favourite champions. But, he has no place in the current game.

Looking at other yordles/champions, there is nothing he can do effectively in order to be picked instead of other champions.

What is Teemo's job? I think it's making top lane hard for some melee in the early game (despite what people think, Teemo can't counter Nasus/Garen/Darius/etc in the mid-late game) and help the team with awesome map control using his ulti, or use it to push/def a lane.

It sounds really cool, it's like "you can counter some champs in the early game, and, even if you are not very good at teamfights, you can help a lot with your ulti for map control and for pushing lanes you are not in".

But in the game, in particular, at "high elo", that Teemo is usually, useless.

AA range: 500, almost every gap closer that most meta champions have has more range than 500, so it's hard to even counter the early game of those champs.

Q: really strong, 680 range, enough for harrasing enemy laner but too risky for trying to blind the enemy adc during teamfights. Almost no counterplay.

W: No real scape, and the cd on his "scape/chase ability" is too long, 17 seconds cd.

E: It's not a bad design, I think it should be reworked, it should have stacks. Due to the low AA range and no sustain/scape/survival skills, Teemo is better at building "mage" than AS+AP. In my experience, I have seen that is better, in teamfights or even in lane, attacking the enemy with AA+Q and run away with W, than building AS+AP and staying at 500 range for more AAs, it's too risky, and it doesn't really rewards you (30% AP on hit, and 40% DoT poison damage that doesn't stack).

R: Amazing spell. It's why I like Teemo (well, one of the reasons). But it has 2 main problems:

1- If the enemy is "new to the game" or he doens't know there are some objects like Banshee's Veil, or Vision lens, he will see how OP this ulti is, and in fact, it's too powerfull if you don't know how to counter it. It can deal easily 40-60% hp to a squishy, depending on how fed Teemo is, and on Liandry's Torment (the item has amazing synergy with the ulti). Which is, in my opinion, OverPowered, and not fun to play against.

2- Once you learn that there are some items like Zhonyas/Banshee's Veil/pink wards/Vision Lens/etc. You realize how easy is to counter this ulti. And, if you are a tank with a lot of MR, you can easily "eat" some mushrooms if you have banshee's Veil or lens on cd without taking too much damage, countering the "map-control" Teemo has. Which is, in my opinion, NERFED, and not fun to play with.

As we can see, it's strong versus lack of knowledge and too useless versus experienced players. How to solve it?.

Make the mushrooms totally invisibles, even if you use vision lens, you won't see them.

But this is too op dude, stop dreaming.

Of course, change the damage they can deal. For example:

Noxious Trap Teemo places a trap which stealths and arms in 1 second. It detonates if an enemy steps on it, dealing 14% /17% /20% (+0,75% per 100 ability power) target maximum health as magic damage and poisoning nearby enemies, slowing them by 30% / 40% / 50% for 4 seconds. The traps last 10 minutes. Teemo will store one every 35 / 31 / 27 seconds, and can have a maximum of three stocked up. Each cast requires and uses a trap. After death, you respawn with 2 mushrooms.

Numbers are subject to changes of course, it's just an example of how it would work in order to avoid OP situations (a LB is walking and suddenly his HP drops from 100% to 40% and she doesn't know why), but at the same time, enemy team has to be careful about Teemo's map control, it would be a strong ultimate on champion who is supposed to be good at taking control of objectives and warding key places. At the moment, it's just "Oh, they have a Teemo, build Vision lens and pink wards, and let the tank be the first".** I'm ok with Vision Lens as long as it doesn't counter so hard the only strong point of a champion ** because Teemo is not strong in teamfighst clearly, and his laning phase depends on what the enemy team choose (it's not like Maokai/Irelia/Hecarim/etc).

Why did I mention Kennen and Gnar?

Because at the moment, there is no reason you pick Teemo in a game in which Kennen and Gnar are not banned. They do the same as Teemo does in lane (make it hard for some champion) but in a better way, they don't use mana, they have better sustain, they have gap closer-scape, they have cc, Kennen has 550 just with AAs, the rest of the skills has more range. MiniGnar has low AA range but it's compensated by a long poking tool on Q and an amazing scape skill on E.

And in top of that, they are extremely strong during teamfights, Gnar is just a stun-beast during tfs, and kennen with his ulti can change the whole game.

Then, what is Teemo's difference with Kennen and Gnar?, they have better laning phase, they are much better at tfs, they don't need mana.

MAP CONTROL, Teemo can offer map control, the problem is that it's easily 100%-countered by some items and with the new SR, the monster that is walking on the river.

I'm fine with Kennen and Gnar, I play them sometimes, but Teemo needs some changes, in particular, with the ulti, and how it interacts with some items.

I would like to buy the legendary skin that is gonna be out on the next patch, but I don't want to buy something for a champion that I can't use versus experienced players, because it doesn't depend on how good I'm using the ulti, it depends on when enemy team buy pinkwards/banshee's veil/vision lens.

Not fun.

68 Comments

UdoIkOSc4u4/6/2015, 12:45:45 PM5 votes

riot thinks teemo hasn't clear strenght and weakness but they believe that overloaded champions like Gnar andLeeSin are healthy

SantoJoe4/6/2015, 12:15:47 PM5 votes

Please, only constructive feedback.

Yfrappefort4/6/2015, 5:53:14 PM4 votes

Just gonna leave this here :

"I don’t recommend Teemo. He’s considered a troll pick and you might get harassed by your teammates for picking him,” jokes Sozpurefect. He’s incredibly difficult to lane with effectively, considering he has no way to clear a wave and relies on surprise and split-pushing to win games. He’s also pretty useless in most team fights, aside from his mushrooms."

Source : http://na.lolesports.com/articles/brain-freeze-ashe-and-teemo-challenger-week-5

So yeah, I wish Teemo could be reworked in something that would allow him to...

a) Give him a clear role. Like wth is he? A marskman? A mage? An assassin? Even his lore (and the upcoming legendary skin) suggest he should be a jungler.

b) Make him a non-troll pick. Because seriously, that's what he is right now, and it makes me sad since he used to be my main. I loved picking him before, but now he got no place in the current meta and is simply outclassed, like you said, by Kennen and Gnar as a ranged top.

c) Make him feel actually rewarding when played well, rather then when enemies are playing bad, which is all he is currently. This makes him good in lower division, but terrible in high division and competitive play.

Also, fun fact, the tanks coming back in the meta alone made Teemo win rate drop by about 2-3%. That's quite big if you ask me.

Freljordan4/6/2015, 6:38:42 PM4 votes

in addition to the percent health damage on champions it should have a minimum damage against monsters/minions so that he can still use his mushrooms to keep lanes from getting pushed

ZeeDrakon4/6/2015, 1:13:50 PM2 votes

The problem with your changes is that it reduces counterplay. And thats a very unhealthy way to buff a champ

Saianna4/7/2015, 2:39:15 AM1 votes

I enjoy playing teemo, I've read your thread and i disagree on few parts: 1.) Teemos R was nerfed by 0.2 ap scalling just because of item 3151 . So Buying this means u deal almost the same damage as prenerfed.

2.) I'm not sure, but i think Teemos Q has just tiny bit bigger range than AA (not 150)

4.) Your rework idea.. So it wouldn't have any AP scalling? AD teemos would be buffed, while AP teemos.. it'd be kinda uber nerf for them

Drunk Rummate4/7/2015, 1:47:34 PM1 votes

First of all, I can see you're from EUW. So if English isn't your first language (as it appears), I want to congratulate you because you speak far better than many native speakers I know.

Regarding Teemo - I think the problem with any changes to this champion is that he is held very dearly by a lot of members of the community. His concept and kit are pretty synonymous with league, and in a sense he is one of our poster children. As a result, any large scale changes to Teemo are likely to be met with considerable backlash.

I do think changing the champion up a bit would be a good idea. As you've said, his ultimate is binary. Overpowered against inexperienced players, pretty useless against better players. The champion also doesn't offer much to his team outside of controlling a few areas on the map with his mushrooms. I think your change to his ultimate would be interesting, but it wouldn't really solve the issues that the champion brings to league. I believe his kit needs a large scale rework like Sion received, but I also think it's less important than some other champions they've already flagged (like Urgot).

Sirsir4/7/2015, 1:58:06 PM1 votes

So Teemo is being kept down by funner to play against champions that are stronger?

Worlds smallest violin...

Cornerstone14/7/2015, 3:01:25 PM1 votes

Don't make his Q a skill shot. It's his only reliable damage and survival tool, particularly against mobile gap closers. His blind is no worse than the many other forms of untargetable skills, many of which effect ALL team members, not just the one Teemo manages to blind (think Jax, Vlad, Siver shield, Vane ult-q, etc). This so called counter play is over exaggerated (and its only against 1 aa reliant opponent, useless against ability casters (Annie, Etc)), with the other 4 members eager to wreck a teemo.

Increase his aa range to 550 so he isn't so vulnerable in team fights.

His W needs buffed either in speed or lower CD.

His shroom damage should not be so item dependent on Liandry's. It forces you into a build path for shroom relevancy. Add a percentage of max health damage and modify the base numbers so a MR tank can't have a stomp field day.

His on-hit e needs a slight buff to get his sustained damage closer to a typical marksman. (His Q equals one crit, but then his damage is over after his auto-Q-auto.)

Xela Syab4/7/2015, 4:20:02 PM1 votes

Teemo's Q is bugged, that's his problem. Other than that I would like Riot ro rework him so he's more of a support trap champ, where his R and W are switched and his shrooms deal less damage. His new R gives him massive passive movespeed, the active double it and gives him bonus damage to poisoned champs for a short duration.

Leblancs Boob4/7/2015, 5:19:30 PM1 votes

Teemo's kit is just way too unhealthy to be buffed in its current state. He needs a kit rework badly

Sooko4/6/2015, 2:01:20 PM1 votes

W and E are his biggest issues IMO, because as you said, his Q and R can actually be strong

Teemo is just a ball of stats (like a few other champions in the game right now) and lacks any actual strength in those skills. they are just extra damage and speed mashed into his kit, not really giving him anything solid asides from stats he naturally has.

Solution: Give his E an active as well, maybe something AoE for better waveclear, splitpushing and maybe teamfighting. A poisonous grenade could work for a scout who is traumatized with war (looking at you, Omega Scout Teemo)

and/or

Rework his W completely and increase his base MS to compensate for the loss of its passive. I would like some good CC to stop pesky assassins (Teemo is supposed to be an anti-assassin after all) and perhaps even interrupt channels.

kile1474/6/2015, 8:12:58 PM1 votes

No you cannot have vision that can't be cleared with true sight, making them immune to pinks and red trinket is bad. What I would like to see is the damage of his ult nerfed a bit and the vision utility enhanced. Make it so that there isn't as much reason to spam a ton of shrooms in one place and instead spread them out for the vision control. If you nerfed the damage and slightly increased their vision radius it would be better, and I also think it would be cool if the DoT aspect of his shrooms worked like Liandry's and burned for % current health (I think that the slow scaling on %missing hp would also be cool but whatever). This would prevent the toxic behavior where teemo spams shrooms all over your jungle and if you go in without a pink they destroy you. With these changes you still should get pinks against teemo because otherwise his team will have vision of you, but if you don't get a pink you're not instantly dead, just softened up.

tldr: True sight must reveal his ult, but changing the way it deals damage and increasing the vision is provides would make it less toxic

p.s. the E working on an ammo system is a cool idea

Migrañaboy4/6/2015, 10:17:28 PM1 votes

Back in the day, Teemo was that sort of champion: when you gain advantage, you perpetuate it by negating the enemy jungle.

Of course this came with AP ratio nerf in recent s4, but then red trinket was implemented.

Baron of Bread4/6/2015, 10:22:12 PM1 votes

Looking at the comments, I have seen a few that say that Teemo should be turned into a jungler. How about you guys try him in the jungle in his current form? I have been able to jungle reasonably well with Teemo with not much experience with him, imagine if someone who really knew what they were doing gave it a try.