Boards›Gameplay

Here's why I think Juggernaut is the weakest jungle upgrade

G1aD0S·11/29/2014, 8:32:17 PM·61 votes·7,664 views

Juggernaut enchantment upgrade: (1500 gold)

+500 health +10% cooldown reduction

Passive UNIQUE - TENACITY: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds, polymorphs, and immobilizes are reduced by 35%.

TLDR; Juggernaut enchantment feels/is bad because:

  1. does nothing to assist in clearing camps compared to other upgrades despite the increase in jungle camp difficulty

1.5)still costs the same as other enchantments

  1. does nothing to mitigate damage from camps despite the increase in jungle camp difficulty

2.5) still costs the same as other enchantments

  1. the old jungle tank item gave out even more HP than this item + was cheaper when combined with another 200+ HP item

3.5) not good news for most tank junglers especially considering how underwhelming many of them were last season

BIGGEST DRAWBACK TO JUGGERNAUT:

I can get more HP than Juggernaut enchantment for less gold with just a ruby crystal and a giants belt (that can be built into more useful items). On top of this, Juggernaut doesn't scale that well into late game at all, forcing the player to trade tenacity for defensive stats when tenacity is already semi situational.

Proposal to fix Juggernaut: -trade some HP/CDR/Tenacity for clearing power/jungle damage mitigation or -make the item scale really well

87 Comments

Budupops11/29/2014, 9:05:54 PM30 votes

rito hates tanks

poopoo peepee11/29/2014, 8:52:23 PM13 votes

How about they change it to this-

300 health 20% more health(same as old item) 25 armor and magic resist Unique passive: when you take damage from monsters for 3 seconds, you unleash a wave in a small radius around you dealing 150% of the damage you took

I think that would give it better scaling with better clear

Rebonack11/29/2014, 9:02:27 PM10 votes

Make it poison things that attack you and deal (percentage of your max HP) in magic damage over three seconds.

Suddenly a lot more interesting and helps with clear times.

RndmInternetMan11/29/2014, 9:54:48 PM7 votes

IMO, all of the fully upgraded jungle items are weak, with the exception of Devourer, when compared to non-jungle items. Why would I get Juggernaut when I can get Warmog's or Righteous Glory? The latter might even give me enough mana to let someone else on my team have blue. Why would I get Warrior when I can get Black Cleaver? Sure, it costs a bit more, but 200 health, 5 AD, and that passive are totally worth it. Why would I get Magus when I can get Morellonomicon? Nomicon gives strictly more stats and costs less too!

That said, I like the new jungle items for one reason: I don't have to buy one.

Last season, the Conservation stacks were too much gold to pass up and upgrading from Spirit Stone actually improved your ability to clear the jungle. Now that neither of those things happen, I'm perfectly content to upgrade my Machete into a Trailblazer and leave it there until I sell it later in the game. This frees me up to buy items that are actually useful.

For tanks, getting some early armor really helps with jungle clearing. If the enemy team isn't really heavy magic damage, Thornmail does tons of damage to the jungle creeps, keeps you healthy, and is great in fights.

pinkyblossom11/30/2014, 2:03:49 AM6 votes

Sejuani Loves this item!

Cool-down and Health an Tenacity - o boy!

And u have 3 other items to choose for jungle. Why do u find this item week? On what did u build it?

Its even better from item 3207 if u ask me coz u get that HP sooner. To have 500 HP by item 3207 u had to have +700 HP bought. Now u get it sooner! Win faster with smaller build. The only thing i miss from that item is the Hunter's ward.

futuresight2311/29/2014, 10:15:13 PM4 votes

Could make the argument that CDR does help clear camps with the ability to use abilities more often whether they are percentage health attacks or abilities that help sustain like shields. Being able to buy Mobility boots or Ninja Tabi while still having Tenacity is a very good thing given how strong the movement speed or ability to take less damage from auto-attacks is.

Having said that, the jungle enchantments despite being slot efficient are in general not mandatory to rush like in the days where finishing the item picked up your gold generation or helped to build your stacks. For tanks, they could go Juggernaut, or they could go with a heavier magic resist option like Spirit Visage, Banshee's or Locket, or they could build armor like a Sunfire Cape, Frozen Heart, or Iceborn Gauntlet, or they could build an item with health, armor and CDR like the Ohmwrecker. Same goes for the other enchantments besides Devourer which needs to be built as soon as possible to have its greatest impact.

Pyro11/29/2014, 11:11:16 PM3 votes

The answer isn't just in Juggernaut itself - if it was stronger, bruisers would pick it up as well. Some points you make don't hold:

does nothing to mitigate damage from camps despite the increase in jungle camp difficulty

It increases your health pool, allowing you to take more damage.

the old jungle tank item gave out even more HP than this item + was cheaper when combined with another 200+ HP item

Spirit of the Ancient Golem didn't have Tenacity and SotAG + 200 HP item would definitely cost more than Juggernaut.

I can get more HP than Juggernaut enchantment for less gold with just a ruby crystal and a giants belt

But that won't give you Tenacity or 10% CDR. Similar comparison could be made about Warrior enchantment and Brutalizer.

Juggernaut doesn't scale that well into late game at all, forcing the player to trade tenacity for defensive stats when tenacity is already semi situational.

You undervalue Tenacity. Having it on the first item opens up many boot choices, like Ninja Tabi, Boots of Mobility or Sorcerer's Shoes - instead of mandatory Mercury's Treads.

What we could use is a passive effect that would grant % HP damage, and Gift of the Toadstool is a perfect place for that.

If Juggernaut was to become more attractive for tanks, the Ruby Crystal could be replaced with Crystalline Bracer. Tanks utilize regeneration really well.

item 3725 Juggernaut Recipe: item 3067 Kindlegem + item 3801 Crystalline Bracer + 50g +500 health +100% base health regeneration +10% CDR Tenacity

Gray Fanchon11/29/2014, 11:17:23 PM3 votes

Honestly, I rather like it; it's a great shot of early health that's competitive with other items, it offers a ton of tenacity - a nice alternative to Mercury Treads - and cooldown reduction. I don't think any of the upgrades are actually meant to help you deal with the jungle, they feel to me like upgrades for your jungle item so it's providing something for your build and not just taking up a slot to allow you to jungle.

I Main Swain11/29/2014, 11:21:36 PM2 votes

it should give a sort of thornmail that deals %dmg back to jungle monsters

BeatzBoyFTW11/30/2014, 12:28:22 AM2 votes

You obviously never heard of tank champs whose abilities scales with maximum %HP, like Sejuani Nautilus Maokai

Cale01711/29/2014, 8:55:47 PM2 votes

I just tried it out on Zac and I have to agree. It feels like I'd have done better going with the Magus enchantment instead and just getting tank items afterwards. 500 Health and 10% CDR is just not worth 1500 gold compared to 80 AP (keeping in mind that a Needlessly Large Rod's 80 AP is 1600), and the same amount of CDR. Sure it's got tenacity, but other items do as well. Items I'd rather have.

n0ob11/30/2014, 2:49:59 AM2 votes

Agreed. I built ancient golem every game pre patch. I go warrior now. Had to change my entire build and playstyle just because Juggernaut is more or less a useless noobtrap now.

Just Jangle11/30/2014, 4:15:58 AM2 votes

Impliying RIto give a shet about tanks.

FiendOfOne11/29/2014, 8:58:19 PM2 votes

The one thing I don't want to lose on it is tenacity. Having Tenacity on my jungle item means that I can open up other possibilities on my boots (since tenacity is a rare passive anyway, and even more rare for tank items). It's just so good to have for tank junglers, built in tenacity on the jungle item.

kanacho11/29/2014, 10:01:49 PM1 votes

Not to mention it has tenacity on it, which tank junglers tend to get via Mercury treads anyway... And since tenacity doesn't stack, well... That's an issue with the cost efficiency too. Adding some heavy buffs like a basic 10% CDR reduc (faster clear time) and some heavier defensive stats would fix the thing pretty easily.

Could also make a more unique passive ability like Devourer has which would maybe act sort of like spirit visage/rod of ages or something like that... I Really enjoyed the bonus health boost based on bonus health from the old golem jungle item, so why not just transfer that passive over to juggernaut? Seems like a good idea imo, and that way the item isn't completely useless late-game, since tanks tend to have less money to spend/get to max build with since their clear time/farming isn't as good as someone like Udyr, Yi, or Warwick who have huge sustain and hyper-carry potential.