Ranked and Individual performance.

MagicOfLight··3 votes·2,410 views

Ok, So we have individual rankings based on our scores in game now. Everything counts because I got an S- as Blitz support when i was making plays everywhere. So, that being said. Why is ranked and normal mmr still based solely on win/loss? There is no reason you cant tally up kills/deaths/assists/damage taken/damage dealt to champions/healing done.

The fact that you are only 20% of your team, yet the teams performance dictates your MMR is not fair to people who play well and have bad luck and get matched with bad players alot. People who wont ward, group for objectives, defend base, dont call mia or ping anything.

People will be matched with other players around their skill level if you take their individual skill into account. It seems to me its based on pure luck if you win or lose. Will your team actually pick a tank? Will your mid feed hard? Will top lane bring ignite and ignore their team the entire game? These things and many many more just show me that unless you are willing to play yourself to death that you cannot reach an MMR that is appropriate to your skill level.

Its also unfair that for champion master you only get LOTS of points on a win. If you get an S- and get 200, but then get a C cause you got carried and get 1200...its just not fair. Its a team game and i understand that part of it, but when your team does not play like a team because they are too focused on themselves and not doing what they need to do. Then you suffer, your team suffers, and the enemy team gets opportunities to take all the objectives on the map. This is why I do not play ranked. This is why I am still matched with people who alot of times just are not skilled at the game at all, yet their MMR is around the same as mine because 80% of their team carries them to it. I do not have a high MMR, I believe its around 1300 or so, give or take, i see more golds than anything with some silvers and plats and even bronze sometimes. This is in normal games btw.

Its based on luck, if you get good teams you gain alot of MMR really fast. If you get afks and trolls, people who do everything wrong, then you lose MMR really fast. So no matter what, unless you play the game to death and have no life at all you never get to where you want to be.

For example, my girlfriend is silver 1 with 223 wins. Yet there is someone ranked above her with 6 wins. 6 wins...out of 14 games. Less than 50% win ratio, and is in silver 1. Yet my gf who plays ranked to death so her 20% contribution raises her MMR slowly is ranked in the same league as him??? She has 223/434 with 51.4% win ratio in silver 1, yet a 6/14 is ranked higher???

Straight up, the system is broken. Its all on win/loss rather than the actual things that matter. People can be worse players yet ranked higher with a lower win%. You introduced a ranking system for personal performance in games for champion mastery, please please do something to let that count for MMR as well. The community wants their individual performance to count for something other than just a ranking after the game that has no weight on MMR, Hardly anything on champion master, and being able to look at the graphs after the game and see how everyone did.

I told myself I would not come back to the boards because of all the flaming that goes on here. But I feel compelled to write this all and try to convince Riot to help seperate the community in the tiers they belong to, not only for the players who play thousands of games, but for the rest of people who dont play it for a job and dont like the stress of playing this game all the time.

77 Comments

BluePolarizer2 votes

You think you are way better than you actually are. If you have a job and a family I can't even begin to imagine what you think at your job and in your household. Holy fk the immaturity is real.

MagicOfLight1 votes

{quoted}

You think you are way better than you actually are. If you have a job and a family I can't even begin to imagine what you think at your job and in your household. Holy fk the immaturity is real.

Dont flame my thread. You cant deny math man.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Another example http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=princessbblgum a 44% win ratio at Gold 3. Its just not right that someone like my gf who plays TONS more ranked games and has more than 7% more winning percentage is ranked in silver 1 while this person is in Gold 3.

Salidfingers1 votes

{quoted}

Another example http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=princessbblgum a 44% win ratio at Gold 3. Its just not right that someone like my gf who plays TONS more ranked games and has more than 7% more winning percentage is ranked in silver 1 while this person is in Gold 3.

The guy you are complaining about was platinum last season and has played a total of 33 games so far. That isn't something to gripe about. he has been unlucky.

I main olaf top when i have to and last season i had a 75% winrate and this season i have a 45% winrate on olaf. My skill didnt change, but the people i play with are horrible in silver as team mates with olaf.

I dont expect to win when i go to lane, but i do expect to win when i am support.

MagicOfLight1 votes

{quoted}

The guy you are complaining about was platinum last season and has played a total of 33 games so far. That isn't something to gripe about. he has been unlucky.

I main olaf top when i have to and last season i had a 75% winrate and this season i have a 45% winrate on olaf. My skill didnt change, but the people i play with are horrible in silver as team mates with olaf.

I dont expect to win when i go to lane, but i do expect to win when i am support.

I just want to point out that last season should not give you better placement. It literally lets you avoid the "elo hell" that is hard to climb out of. It is hard to climb out of it because it is 20% skill and 80% luck in solo q to get a good team and get a win. It takes as someone stated, like 1000 games to get an accurate rank based on your skill level. 1000 games? lets say thats 30 minutes per 1 game, thats 500 hours of playing league you need to do at least once in one season of ranked to see if you are good enough to even get out of the "elo hell" that some people say does not exist. There is 504 hours in 3 weeks. So you need to play 3 full weeks on only league to get an accurate rank based on skill if that 1000 games would be accurate.

In 4 years of playing league, i have maybe 1200 or so normal games played. Asking me to play 1000 in a ranked season is ridiculous. Anyone who cannot play 1000 games but has the skill to be ranked higher, either has to put their life on hold and play, get lucky, or always be in that "elo hell".
I am in the elo hell still in normal mmr, because i do not play the game to death, i do other things through my day. A perfect example is one of my recent games as vladimir. I got a couple ganks early and got an assist, but then got camped by their xin jungle with wukong being the one in lane. Dual gap closers and all i had was pool flash. The combo of wukong armor red and their combined damage "i even had 3 movement quints on" they got me like 4 times in lane. My team instantly started flaming me, the morgana was complaining about our team comp and saying "im going to feed" before the game even started. Our team had a scary wombo combo, which we never got to use, cass vlad ashe evelyn and morg. All 4 of them ended up afking for some time in the fountain, and even tho I got held down in lane hardcore, I ended up going 3/6/2. Considering the 4 ganks that got me in lane. Id say thats pretty good. But the rest of my team was so toxic and crappy that they basically gave up and started doing stupid things all game. You do not see this in high level play, teams will never completely give up with no inhibs down. They band together and make plays of their own to bring the game back into their favor. Elo hell is real, and it will be another 2-3 years before i climb out of it in normals because of how it does not take my individual skill into account, which means im matched with more players who are more toxic, not team focused, not objective focused, and less likely to be fun to play with than the higher ranked players.

2-3 more years to get an accurate normal mmr, and thats if i get lucky and dont get bad team mates alot. Its not fair.

Salidfingers1 votes

{quoted}

I just want to point out that last season should not give you better placement. It literally lets you avoid the "elo hell" that is hard to climb out of. It is hard to climb out of it because it is 20% skill and 80% luck in solo q to get a good team and get a win. It takes as someone stated, like 1000 games to get an accurate rank based on your skill level. 1000 games? lets say thats 30 minutes per 1 game, thats 500 hours of playing league you need to do at least once in one season of ranked to see if you are good enough to even get out of the "elo hell" that some people say does not exist. There is 504 hours in 3 weeks. So you need to play 3 full weeks on only league to get an accurate rank based on skill if that 1000 games would be accurate.

In 4 years of playing league, i have maybe 1200 or so normal games played. Asking me to play 1000 in a ranked season is ridiculous. Anyone who cannot play 1000 games but has the skill to be ranked higher, either has to put their life on hold and play, get lucky, or always be in that "elo hell".
I am in the elo hell still in normal mmr, because i do not play the game to death, i do other things through my day. A perfect example is one of my recent games as vladimir. I got a couple ganks early and got an assist, but then got camped by their xin jungle with wukong being the one in lane. Dual gap closers and all i had was pool flash. The combo of wukong armor red and their combined damage "i even had 3 movement quints on" they got me like 4 times in lane. My team instantly started flaming me, the morgana was complaining about our team comp and saying "im going to feed" before the game even started. Our team had a scary wombo combo, which we never got to use, cass vlad ashe evelyn and morg. All 4 of them ended up afking for some time in the fountain, and even tho I got held down in lane hardcore, I ended up going 3/6/2. Considering the 4 ganks that got me in lane. Id say thats pretty good. But the rest of my team was so toxic and crappy that they basically gave up and started doing stupid things all game. You do not see this in high level play, teams will never completely give up with no inhibs down. They band together and make plays of their own to bring the game back into their favor. Elo hell is real, and it will be another 2-3 years before i climb out of it in normals because of how it does not take my individual skill into account, which means im matched with more players who are more toxic, not team focused, not objective focused, and less likely to be fun to play with than the higher ranked players.

2-3 more years to get an accurate normal mmr, and thats if i get lucky and dont get bad team mates alot. Its not fair.

I have 7 accounts and I have climb this elo 4 times already this season. Three to gold 3 and one to plat 4.

Trust me it is not hard to climb. Right now i am some what working on a 5th account to gold, but i am holding back because i need 37k ip still for runes.

My secret to plat or higher is really nothing special. It really comes down to counter picks. Win your lane/roam to another lane and win game.

Most of my games i won is just Hitting the E button for a snare and win team fight. The skill in this game is just laning a CC and relax. Trying to make plays gets you killed more then victory.

Last pick is the best pick no matter what lane or role. If you can win your lane 90% of the time and bait the enemy jungler to you then your doing a great job. Making the jungler come to you is a big success, because your lane is desperate and if you play right it will just be a waste of time for the jungler.

Vision Vision Vision is a big factor to. Seeing where a straggler is or where to avoid will improve your chances on winning .

I don't believe in elo hell. I do believe in a elo pit where there is a cyst pool of shit and you just have to climb your way up with better performance.

It really is just a numbers game in bronze and silver. Increase your chance to win each game and accept the loses as a grain of salt. I am usally around 60%+ winrate on most accounts and on my main i am over 65%

MagicOfLight1 votes

{quoted}

I have 7 accounts and I have climb this elo 4 times already this season. Three to gold 3 and one to plat 4.

Trust me it is not hard to climb. Right now i am some what working on a 5th account to gold, but i am holding back because i need 37k ip still for runes.

My secret to plat or higher is really nothing special. It really comes down to counter picks. Win your lane/roam to another lane and win game.

Most of my games i won is just Hitting the E button for a snare and win team fight. The skill in this game is just laning a CC and relax. Trying to make plays gets you killed more then victory.

Last pick is the best pick no matter what lane or role. If you can win your lane 90% of the time and bait the enemy jungler to you then your doing a great job. Making the jungler come to you is a big success, because your lane is desperate and if you play right it will just be a waste of time for the jungler.

Vision Vision Vision is a big factor to. Seeing where a straggler is or where to avoid will improve your chances on winning .

I don't believe in elo hell. I do believe in a elo pit where there is a cyst pool of shit and you just have to climb your way up with better performance.

It really is just a numbers game in bronze and silver. Increase your chance to win each game and accept the loses as a grain of salt. I am usally around 60%+ winrate on most accounts and on my main i am over 65%

Challenger people dont even have a 60% winrate, in fact, i looked specifically at the 7th highest rated challenger and he had a 57% win rate. Dont bs me man. The ranked system doesnt work unless you play it as like a job or something. Its math, you cant argue that 2+2=4

Salidfingers1 votes

{quoted}

Challenger people dont even have a 60% winrate, in fact, i looked specifically at the 7th highest rated challenger and he had a 57% win rate. Dont bs me man. The ranked system doesnt work unless you play it as like a job or something. Its math, you cant argue that 2+2=4

What BS, I am no chellenger. Highest i got is plat 4.

SIlver is a struggle ill admit that, but i usually start to climb quickly once hit gold 4, because i am getting 20+ LP and losing 10-13 LP

But you mean to tell me no one in this game can have 65% winrate?

MagicOfLight1 votes

{quoted}

What BS, I am no chellenger. Highest i got is plat 4.

SIlver is a struggle ill admit that, but i usually start to climb quickly once hit gold 4, because i am getting 20+ LP and losing 10-13 LP

But you mean to tell me no one in this game can have 65% winrate?

If you do have a 65% win rate, you should still be climbing until it levels off. But its still a 50/50 shot to get some team mates that give first blood before you jungler even kills blue or red. I mean just look at this recent normal game of mine. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1829209429/39496764?tab=overview Just the fact that a braum gave up literally 1 kill every 2 minutes...im at a loss for words for it. Iv been playing league for 4 years, i have just over 600 wins on normals. I dont play the game constantly so I dont increase my mmr, and even if i did play it constantly, there is still a 50/50 chance of getting team mates like i did in this game. So yes you might have a 65% win rate, i doubt it, but its possible, but even if you do its just luck that your team didnt make it impossible for you to carry. Its also luck to get a team that works for objectives and actually tries to win. Thats why individual performance needs to be taken into account for champion mastery and mmr. Because that pantheon game, i only got like 250 mastery points. Totally unfair.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Another example for you Riot. This person is Challenger 1 and has only a 53% win ratio, has played about 1000 games also. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Aceirl Tell me why this person belongs in challenger with those stats. Its ridiculous that someone who has barely a Gold level win % is in challenger 1. If individual performance does not count, then why is this so Riot?

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Another example for you Riot. This person is Challenger 1 and has only a 53% win ratio, has played about 1000 games also. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Aceirl Tell me why this person belongs in challenger with those stats. Its ridiculous that someone who has barely a Gold level win % is in challenger 1. If individual performance does not count, then why is this so Riot?

that challenger player just stack kills at gold and below elo really easily. you are looking at stats at his elo, which is challenger. if you are comparing stats at his rank to someone at another rank, that's not a very good comparison. he got challenger because he's good enough for it. it's not luck.

MagicOfLight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-05-16T05:01:21.057+0000)

that challenger player just stack kills at gold and below elo really easily. you are looking at stats at his elo, which is challenger. if you are comparing stats at his rank to someone at another rank, that's not a very good comparison. he got challenger because he's good enough for it. it's not luck.

The stats in any rank that are shown are stats they have accumulated since the beginning of the season, not just in the tier they are currently in.

MagicOfLight1 votes

{quoted}

The stats in any rank that are shown are stats they have accumulated since the beginning of the season, not just in the tier they are currently in.

The fact remains, that you are only 20% of your team, you cannot carry by yourself if your team does nothing to help win the game. Even doublelift when put in a team with a bunch of tards vs a team who works together will most likely lose.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

The fact remains, that you are only 20% of your team, you cannot carry by yourself if your team does nothing to help win the game. Even doublelift when put in a team with a bunch of tards vs a team who works together will most likely lose.

for the doublelift, it depends on the other team also. I've seen him play in bronze and he was going about 26/0/2 and so. he almost never died and the other team sent 4 at him and he just killed them all. that's him way above the skill level of the other team and he was doing 200% of the work, even as 20% because he's that good. I've also carried like that before when i was lower in rank, but not as many kills.

the closer to your skill level you are at, the harder it is to carry until the point you can't at all, which is the rank you kind of belong in.

jaymc11302 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-16T05:10:25.223+0000)

for the doublelift, it depends on the other team also. I've seen him play in bronze and he was going about 26/0/2 and so. he almost never died and the other team sent 4 at him and he just killed them all. that's him way above the skill level of the other team and he was doing 200% of the work, even as 20% because he's that good. I've also carried like that before when i was lower in rank, but not as many kills.

the closer to your skill level you are at, the harder it is to carry until the point you can't at all, which is the rank you kind of belong in.

Let me offer some perspective here, I play ranked on likeamaws, my primary account. I'm master tier in that account. I play on various smurfs in gold and silver and usually post scores along the lines of say 12/4/12 and lose. In fact, I have a great degree of difficulty carrying at levels where players are mechanically competent but game sense and strategy deficient, which just so happens to be the silver and gold range of play and skill. Despite the fact that I am clearly a better player than the players I'm playing with on these accounts I have difficulty maintaining much better than a 53 or 54% win rate.

A players skill at playing his champ and role only counts for so much in solo q. If your team mates don't want to win you can't always force the win on them, no matter how hard you carry sometimes.

  1. I'm not the only master tier player who has stated he has this difficulty either. Several other prominent high level players will also tell you like I tell you here, luck in matchmaking is indeed an alarmingly influential factor on whether a ranked game at low level play ends in a win or a loss. The higher one climbs the more accurate and reliable the ranking and matchmaking systems become, but for low level play it's simply atrocious.
hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Let me offer some perspective here, I play ranked on likeamaws, my primary account. I'm master tier in that account. I play on various smurfs in gold and silver and usually post scores along the lines of say 12/4/12 and lose. In fact, I have a great degree of difficulty carrying at levels where players are mechanically competent but game sense and strategy deficient, which just so happens to be the silver and gold range of play and skill. Despite the fact that I am clearly a better player than the players I'm playing with on these accounts I have difficulty maintaining much better than a 53 or 54% win rate.

A players skill at playing his champ and role only counts for so much in solo q. If your team mates don't want to win you can't always force the win on them, no matter how hard you carry sometimes.

  1. I'm not the only master tier player who has stated he has this difficulty either. Several other prominent high level players will also tell you like I tell you here, luck in matchmaking is indeed an alarmingly influential factor on whether a ranked game at low level play ends in a win or a loss. The higher one climbs the more accurate and reliable the ranking and matchmaking systems become, but for low level play it's simply atrocious.

what i was using as a refence were some challenger players i enjoy watching mostly. i've seen one have a hard time in gold even, but he's able to carry almost every game with champs like tryn, rengar, and yasuo.

i agree that it's worse the lower you go in the ranks with how close people are placed, but that's a lot to do with how many people there are. it surprises me that you would have a hard time below diamond, maybe some struggle in plat. i get that not all games are winnable, but most are and it's rare for people to not want to win (at least, a whole team).

i gtg also, will check tomorrow.

jaymc11302 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=0002000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-05-16T06:49:54.966+0000)

what i was using as a refence were some challenger players i enjoy watching mostly. i've seen one have a hard time in gold even, but he's able to carry almost every game with champs like tryn, rengar, and yasuo.

i agree that it's worse the lower you go in the ranks with how close people are placed, but that's a lot to do with how many people there are. it surprises me that you would have a hard time below diamond, maybe some struggle in plat. i get that not all games are winnable, but most are and it's rare for people to not want to win (at least, a whole team).

i gtg also, will check tomorrow.

I'm a lot more willing to fill when I'm in a smurf than when I play serious mode in likeamaws. Which means I'll be playing champs or roles at which I may not be expert enough to hard carry all 4 people. If I get mid in a smurf game? It's over, I already won. If you all make me adc? Probably my worst role, a role dependent upon team work to stay alive when the entire enemy team is focused on diving you and you alone. Yeah it's, gonna be tough for me to carry four feeders in that one now matter how hard they play and want to win. If you all make me play top and I'm constantly fending of 1v3s while splitting to the max but my teammates all lose lane, our jg feeds 3 deaths on bad invades and no one knows how to take an obj when I score a triple kill against that triple team they sent at me, I'm gonna have a rough time hard carrying those 4 despite my impressive kda and farm. In the end it's still a team game, and while one person decides every game in solo q, it will not always be you, even when you play amazing. If it's been a 45 minute game and you are 22/4/15 in a match that's 46-37 them and your teammate decides to overextend with one of your inhibs down and the enemy team baronned up and dies and forces a horrible 4v5 defense on you, it can be tough to win. Sometimes even the best players just can't carry those who don't want to win.

MagicOfLight1 votes

{quoted}

I'm a lot more willing to fill when I'm in a smurf than when I play serious mode in likeamaws. Which means I'll be playing champs or roles at which I may not be expert enough to hard carry all 4 people. If I get mid in a smurf game? It's over, I already won. If you all make me adc? Probably my worst role, a role dependent upon team work to stay alive when the entire enemy team is focused on diving you and you alone. Yeah it's, gonna be tough for me to carry four feeders in that one now matter how hard they play and want to win. If you all make me play top and I'm constantly fending of 1v3s while splitting to the max but my teammates all lose lane, our jg feeds 3 deaths on bad invades and no one knows how to take an obj when I score a triple kill against that triple team they sent at me, I'm gonna have a rough time hard carrying those 4 despite my impressive kda and farm. In the end it's still a team game, and while one person decides every game in solo q, it will not always be you, even when you play amazing. If it's been a 45 minute game and you are 22/4/15 in a match that's 46-37 them and your teammate decides to overextend with one of your inhibs down and the enemy team baronned up and dies and forces a horrible 4v5 defense on you, it can be tough to win. Sometimes even the best players just can't carry those who don't want to win.

It totally true. But as thinker said before. If someone goes in a does tons of damage but gets no assists from it it wouldnt count. But if they take the graphs from after the game into account it will make a huge difference. Damage dealt to champions, damage taken, damage healed...those 3 stats will give you a great idea on how much you contributed to the team. The only 2 things i can see that will not be good for individual scores would be minions because of supports, and just straight up plays and baits, which can only be seen by someone watching. I have posted these things like 3 times in this thread thinker, but you seem to keep skipping over when im saying it. Whenever i carry, my scores on these are usually superior. When someone feeds, its not always their fault...3 man gank top lane, top lane feeds because of it but by taking all that damage and pressure they are leaving other lanes open for great plays and putting more pressure on their opponent in that lane.

So the system can work...if riot is willing to make it happen.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

It totally true. But as thinker said before. If someone goes in a does tons of damage but gets no assists from it it wouldnt count. But if they take the graphs from after the game into account it will make a huge difference. Damage dealt to champions, damage taken, damage healed...those 3 stats will give you a great idea on how much you contributed to the team. The only 2 things i can see that will not be good for individual scores would be minions because of supports, and just straight up plays and baits, which can only be seen by someone watching. I have posted these things like 3 times in this thread thinker, but you seem to keep skipping over when im saying it. Whenever i carry, my scores on these are usually superior. When someone feeds, its not always their fault...3 man gank top lane, top lane feeds because of it but by taking all that damage and pressure they are leaving other lanes open for great plays and putting more pressure on their opponent in that lane.

So the system can work...if riot is willing to make it happen.

The least viable statistics to take into account would be damage dealt, dmg dealt to champs, and damage taken. The first two heavily favor carries, so much so that it will completely skew any system devised. Damage taken obviously favors tanky champs, but also, this would be a stat that would promote poor play if incorporated the way you intend because those who suffer more damage will increase their score when in fact the goal should be to take as little damage as possible. Let's throw those out.

Cs should be a primary factor for what you consider! In fact it should be one of the most important! I understand you might think that would handicap supports, but the mastery system already takes into account the role you are playing. A sup lux and a mid lux will not grade the same even if they have identical score lines of say 6/2/10 in a win. Why? Because different things matter more in each role, sup lux mastery score values vision control more where mid lux would value cs more. Cs is one of the first things to consider when taking into account player skill. Why? Because it's the EASIEST way to measure a players fundamental mechanics. League is basically a game of attrition in which acquiring income to apply ever greater amounts of pressure results in a win. Farm rate measures one's ability to acquire income while under pressure and being actively strategized against. Thus, at it's core, farming rate should be one of the most important factors when considering a players skill. When I go smurf in low level games I will have the highest cs (by like 70 or 80 over next closest. Say 280 to 200 in a 30 minute game) in the game no matter what role I play as long as it's not support, and even then...

The mastery system as it stands now is huge step in the right direction. I have some faith that riot will get this right and give the players what we've been asking for for years, a proper evaluation system for determining player skill. What we have now works, just not very well. When individual performance is taken into account, things ought to smooth out.

hh the thinker2 votes

{quoted}

The least viable statistics to take into account would be damage dealt, dmg dealt to champs, and damage taken. The first two heavily favor carries, so much so that it will completely skew any system devised. Damage taken obviously favors tanky champs, but also, this would be a stat that would promote poor play if incorporated the way you intend because those who suffer more damage will increase their score when in fact the goal should be to take as little damage as possible. Let's throw those out.

Cs should be a primary factor for what you consider! In fact it should be one of the most important! I understand you might think that would handicap supports, but the mastery system already takes into account the role you are playing. A sup lux and a mid lux will not grade the same even if they have identical score lines of say 6/2/10 in a win. Why? Because different things matter more in each role, sup lux mastery score values vision control more where mid lux would value cs more. Cs is one of the first things to consider when taking into account player skill. Why? Because it's the EASIEST way to measure a players fundamental mechanics. League is basically a game of attrition in which acquiring income to apply ever greater amounts of pressure results in a win. Farm rate measures one's ability to acquire income while under pressure and being actively strategized against. Thus, at it's core, farming rate should be one of the most important factors when considering a players skill. When I go smurf in low level games I will have the highest cs (by like 70 or 80 over next closest. Say 280 to 200 in a 30 minute game) in the game no matter what role I play as long as it's not support, and even then...

The mastery system as it stands now is huge step in the right direction. I have some faith that riot will get this right and give the players what we've been asking for for years, a proper evaluation system for determining player skill. What we have now works, just not very well. When individual performance is taken into account, things ought to smooth out.

something like the mastery system, but improved I could agree on. I would feel more comfortable with riot doing it slowly and right, instead of rushing this of course, so this could take a bit of time. I do hope they do this, but what I worry about is a system that takes the wrong thing/things into account. if riot makes a very good system with this, I would be fine with that and I think a lot of other players would enjoy that also, including the poster to this thread.

MagicOfLight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=00020000000000000000000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-16T12:30:12.657+0000)

something like the mastery system, but improved I could agree on. I would feel more comfortable with riot doing it slowly and right, instead of rushing this of course, so this could take a bit of time. I do hope they do this, but what I worry about is a system that takes the wrong thing/things into account. if riot makes a very good system with this, I would be fine with that and I think a lot of other players would enjoy that also, including the poster to this thread.

Yes totally. I just used damage taken/damage dealt ect ect because that has been what i base my performance on for quite some time now. Normally, supports will deal less damage, but a tank support will take more damage, and a healer will heal more, you get no cs, but it is really hard to rank a support individually unless you are watching them ward, watching them save their adc ect ect.

The current ranking system also seems to heavily favor support roles, because I have gotten an S+ and S- rank on support since it came out, but tons of A+ and worse when I am carrying the game really hard. Not sure what they take into effect as support for champion mastery rank.

hh the thinker2 votes

{quoted}

Yes totally. I just used damage taken/damage dealt ect ect because that has been what i base my performance on for quite some time now. Normally, supports will deal less damage, but a tank support will take more damage, and a healer will heal more, you get no cs, but it is really hard to rank a support individually unless you are watching them ward, watching them save their adc ect ect.

The current ranking system also seems to heavily favor support roles, because I have gotten an S+ and S- rank on support since it came out, but tons of A+ and worse when I am carrying the game really hard. Not sure what they take into effect as support for champion mastery rank.

ya, I've noticed that also. the system isn't ready yet, but we can hope that one day it will be and that it will actually be really effective.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

I'm a lot more willing to fill when I'm in a smurf than when I play serious mode in likeamaws. Which means I'll be playing champs or roles at which I may not be expert enough to hard carry all 4 people. If I get mid in a smurf game? It's over, I already won. If you all make me adc? Probably my worst role, a role dependent upon team work to stay alive when the entire enemy team is focused on diving you and you alone. Yeah it's, gonna be tough for me to carry four feeders in that one now matter how hard they play and want to win. If you all make me play top and I'm constantly fending of 1v3s while splitting to the max but my teammates all lose lane, our jg feeds 3 deaths on bad invades and no one knows how to take an obj when I score a triple kill against that triple team they sent at me, I'm gonna have a rough time hard carrying those 4 despite my impressive kda and farm. In the end it's still a team game, and while one person decides every game in solo q, it will not always be you, even when you play amazing. If it's been a 45 minute game and you are 22/4/15 in a match that's 46-37 them and your teammate decides to overextend with one of your inhibs down and the enemy team baronned up and dies and forces a horrible 4v5 defense on you, it can be tough to win. Sometimes even the best players just can't carry those who don't want to win.

funny enough, if you put me mid, I will have a hard time carrying, but if you put me as adc, I'm going to know what to do a lot more. I like to play vayne and twitch mostly. with vayne, I can self peel and with twitch, I can ambush people and kill them before they are ready, which is fairly fun. if you played mid every game, I'm sure your win rate would be fairly high playing through bronze and silver and that was my main point.

hh the thinker1 votes

someone wins lets say 10 games in bronze and wins them all and gets silver. they win 8 our of 10 in silver and then move to gold. they then win about 6 out of 10 games and get plat. once in plat, they win only about 50% and they play about 100 games there. it's going to be very close to 50%. it can then go up and down once in a way, unless you are at the top of the ranks.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Basically what im saying is, for people who play enough to get out of the elo hell player base, its all fine and dandy. But for those of us with some skills and knowledge of the game from watching pro games, listening to commentary, and learning from their mistakes, it makes it frustrating to know we have to play and play and play just to get to a level where we can feel like we are not the only ones actually trying to win the game.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Basically what im saying is, for people who play enough to get out of the elo hell player base, its all fine and dandy. But for those of us with some skills and knowledge of the game from watching pro games, listening to commentary, and learning from their mistakes, it makes it frustrating to know we have to play and play and play just to get to a level where we can feel like we are not the only ones actually trying to win the game.

the only way to get to that place in the first place is playing at that skill and in order to climb, you just have to play just a bit better. the better you play, the faster you will climb. if you play like silver, you will get it after enough games. if you play like bronze, you will be in bronze and it's really that simple. the more games you paly, the more accurate the system is with placing you.

MagicOfLight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-05-16T05:46:38.137+0000)

the only way to get to that place in the first place is playing at that skill and in order to climb, you just have to play just a bit better. the better you play, the faster you will climb. if you play like silver, you will get it after enough games. if you play like bronze, you will be in bronze and it's really that simple. the more games you paly, the more accurate the system is with placing you.

Exactly my point, the more games you play, and I do not play 10-20 games a day therefore I stay where I am at year after year. The system rewards players who play more, the system matchmaking matches me with retards when i carry 90% of the games im not playing as support. Its broken, and im so very tired of playing with retards. Ill take my leave of the boards now. Because I am not a dedicated 12 hour a day player, i guess i do not matter.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly my point, the more games you play, and I do not play 10-20 games a day therefore I stay where I am at year after year. The system rewards players who play more, the system matchmaking matches me with retards when i carry 90% of the games im not playing as support. Its broken, and im so very tired of playing with retards. Ill take my leave of the boards now. Because I am not a dedicated 12 hour a day player, i guess i do not matter.

ok, I think I see what your main point is now and only thing to that is I'm a bit sorry that the system isn't faster at placing people in the right ranks, but no system is prefect and this one works best with many games. i only play about two or three games a day most of the time myself and i also understand how it feels to climb slowly.

MagicOfLight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-16T05:56:20.372+0000)

ok, I think I see what your main point is now and only thing to that is I'm a bit sorry that the system isn't faster at placing people in the right ranks, but no system is prefect and this one works best with many games. i only play about two or three games a day most of the time myself and i also understand how it feels to climb slowly.

Exactly man, if individual skill were taken into effect. It would not take alot, Just the after damage graphs. I look at them every game, and i nearly always perform better than the majority of people on both teams. Damage taken, Damage dealt to chamions, Healing done, those 3 stats will give you a good idea of the impact you had in team fights, how long you were around dealing damage and making plays and such. It can be done, and it really needs done for solo q to not make it such a time consuming hobby to get to ranks you should most likely be in.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly man, if individual skill were taken into effect. It would not take alot, Just the after damage graphs. I look at them every game, and i nearly always perform better than the majority of people on both teams. Damage taken, Damage dealt to chamions, Healing done, those 3 stats will give you a good idea of the impact you had in team fights, how long you were around dealing damage and making plays and such. It can be done, and it really needs done for solo q to not make it such a time consuming hobby to get to ranks you should most likely be in.

i do hope they improve the system, since i do agree that it's not perfect, but it's what we have and a lot of ideas i've heard aren't so good. the other thing and main thing you should have added to that list was objectives, since they are very important (most important actually). their is also positioning, csing and everything in between. the best system would be to judge how hard people win in their games, but that's not always easy to tell. if they win 50/0/2 in a game, they get 300 cs by 25 minutes and get 9 towers, 5 drags, and a baron, chances are they should be a bit higher than bronze, but that one game in the current system might only give them 30 points if their mmr is high. basically, they hould make the system work faster if possible, but it's hard for them to do that without making it less accurate.

MagicOfLight1 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-16T06:09:19.839+0000)

i do hope they improve the system, since i do agree that it's not perfect, but it's what we have and a lot of ideas i've heard aren't so good. the other thing and main thing you should have added to that list was objectives, since they are very important (most important actually). their is also positioning, csing and everything in between. the best system would be to judge how hard people win in their games, but that's not always easy to tell. if they win 50/0/2 in a game, they get 300 cs by 25 minutes and get 9 towers, 5 drags, and a baron, chances are they should be a bit higher than bronze, but that one game in the current system might only give them 30 points if their mmr is high. basically, they hould make the system work faster if possible, but it's hard for them to do that without making it less accurate.

Well cs doesnt work for supports though, so that cannot be taken into account. But dragons, being there and doing damage to dragon, baron and being there for baron, wards, damage taken, damage dealt to champions, things taken from enemy jungle, securing objectives should be a part of the ranking system for individual performance. They have champion mastery right now, on a loss i got an s- as blitz support when my team was being retarded and splitting up every time we got 3-4 kills in a row. And I was blamed for the loss for roaming around saving them and making the plays for that game. But because they would not secure the most important objective "map control and pressure" we delayed the game out so long after dominating so hard, their nasus q got huge and ended up giving them the win basically. Because nobody on my team build to do any damage to tanks either.

Champion master ranks after the game should affect MMR. That should be the future system.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Well cs doesnt work for supports though, so that cannot be taken into account. But dragons, being there and doing damage to dragon, baron and being there for baron, wards, damage taken, damage dealt to champions, things taken from enemy jungle, securing objectives should be a part of the ranking system for individual performance. They have champion mastery right now, on a loss i got an s- as blitz support when my team was being retarded and splitting up every time we got 3-4 kills in a row. And I was blamed for the loss for roaming around saving them and making the plays for that game. But because they would not secure the most important objective "map control and pressure" we delayed the game out so long after dominating so hard, their nasus q got huge and ended up giving them the win basically. Because nobody on my team build to do any damage to tanks either.

Champion master ranks after the game should affect MMR. That should be the future system.

it's hard to make a good system, one that can't be abused in anyway. a system might not be able to tell that you rank in, got 5 champs low, they stayed around and your team cleaned up, but it was long enough that you didn't get an assist so the system thinks you died for nothing. there are so many factors. if there is a change in the system, it won't change the part where you lose points if you lose and you gain points if you win, but it would change how much on factors based off what you do as a player.

jaymc11302 votes

[{quoted}](name=hh the thinker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vzf6awRn,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-16T06:25:36.012+0000)

it's hard to make a good system, one that can't be abused in anyway. a system might not be able to tell that you rank in, got 5 champs low, they stayed around and your team cleaned up, but it was long enough that you didn't get an assist so the system thinks you died for nothing. there are so many factors. if there is a change in the system, it won't change the part where you lose points if you lose and you gain points if you win, but it would change how much on factors based off what you do as a player.

Well the very beginnings of improvements to the system may be coming. Champion mastery gives is a way to grade individual performance in a match. It works a little bit like wins above replacement does for baseball fantasy leagues. It rates your individual performance against the mean performance for players playing your champion in your role and out puts a grade that shows inferior, average, or superior play. Imagine if each game's mastery score was recorded? And if these scores were then averaged by role played on your account. Let's say you play 50 games, 10 of each role. As a top you play poorly and manage only an average mastery score of C, jungle you play pretty average and manage a B. You play well out of the bot lane and manage an A+ average. Mid lane is your sweet spot and you manage an S or S+ every game. Now is there any reason in the world we can't have your performance in each individual role accumulate it's own mmr? And then these could be combined to form an aggregate mmr. Matchmaking could then take these things into account to provide better pairings. Now, instead of selecting 10 players who are within a mmr range matchmaking could pair a game with 10 players who all have an aggregate within a range, an adc player on each team with an adc mmr/mastery component of A+, a support player per team like wise, and so on for every role. Now we have two teams paired with players of comparable skills should they each communicate and take the roles they score highest in. These games will be of a superior quality to the games we all play now. Why? Because matchmaking has more data to take into account and can more appropriately match players for games.

It might not be possible for a system like this to perfectly pair exactly equivalent teams every game, but it's a damn sight better than the system we have now which thinks a player with 3 total ranked games a cs average of 68 farm and a kda less than 1 is equal in skill to a player with 100 ranked games a cs average of 150 and a kda of 3 to 1.

Another big part of the problem will always be that the starting elo of players new to ranked is actually higher than that of the average ranked player. That's also just stupid. It means bronze players ruin 100s of games for thousands of other players as they work their way down. Great system design... Can any one else name another game in which you are given credit for having a degree of skill before having actually achieved it?

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Basically what im saying is, for people who play enough to get out of the elo hell player base, its all fine and dandy. But for those of us with some skills and knowledge of the game from watching pro games, listening to commentary, and learning from their mistakes, it makes it frustrating to know we have to play and play and play just to get to a level where we can feel like we are not the only ones actually trying to win the game.

if it feels like that, then you are still fairly close to that rank in skill, and as long as you keep improving (and you can have fun with it), you will climb, and it will begin to feel easier and easier until you really feel like you can't lose.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Here are the facts. You are 20% of your team. If 2 of the enemy team come running at you, you run away, if you stay you die. Unless you are RIDICULOUSLY fed compared to them, which if your team is 80% tards, that is very very less likely to happen. Saying someone wins 90% of their bronze games?? Im sorry but ill believe it when i see it, because if you get a bad team and they get a good one, you are most likely gonna get roflstomped. 80% of your team is your team mates. You cant carry them hard if they refuse to work as a team. Its just how moba games work. 2v1 literally nearly always wins.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Here are the facts. You are 20% of your team. If 2 of the enemy team come running at you, you run away, if you stay you die. Unless you are RIDICULOUSLY fed compared to them, which if your team is 80% tards, that is very very less likely to happen. Saying someone wins 90% of their bronze games?? Im sorry but ill believe it when i see it, because if you get a bad team and they get a good one, you are most likely gonna get roflstomped. 80% of your team is your team mates. You cant carry them hard if they refuse to work as a team. Its just how moba games work. 2v1 literally nearly always wins.

i can't really show you constant winning in bronze because it doesn't last long. on my smurf (i use it to practice roles I'm bad at and new champs), i had 100% win rate with vayne. the lowest i was able to even go even when playing support and not carrying was bronze 3. only thing i didn't do was feed. my smurf is at silver 2 right now because it was easy winning even when i was playing champs I'm new with. i almost got a penta with sivir one game also even (would have been the first one ever in a normal/ranked game), but i died on the last champ.

when in bronze 3, the other team is trying to feed you every game it felt like, but i didn't abuse it, just practiced the new champs.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Also, my 1000 or so games i have played have been over the course of 4 years, and since i was the level i was able to play pvp at. So the MMR for me is not accurate at all to my actual current skill level, I do see higher ranked players more and more often now yes, but its so freeking slow, I play a few games at least almost every day. And I still am stuck with some idiots alot of times. I know i make mistakes to, but i learn from them...some people dont even realize they are making a mistake when they play jungle nautilus, and build rod of ages as a second item...and yes that happened in my last game.

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Also, my 1000 or so games i have played have been over the course of 4 years, and since i was the level i was able to play pvp at. So the MMR for me is not accurate at all to my actual current skill level, I do see higher ranked players more and more often now yes, but its so freeking slow, I play a few games at least almost every day. And I still am stuck with some idiots alot of times. I know i make mistakes to, but i learn from them...some people dont even realize they are making a mistake when they play jungle nautilus, and build rod of ages as a second item...and yes that happened in my last game.

ya, people will make mistakes. i faced a support riven in ranked today and i was mostly free farming. gold for me feels a bit like what your mmr feels to you i guess, but I'm climbing and enjoying it, but i get tired after a game or two, so I'm climbing very slowly.

MagicOfLight1 votes

I have heard people state "I didnt lose from bronze to gold one time" And honestly, if 1 person out of 3 million does that, that is not something you can go by to say the ranking system is fair and easy to climb if you have skill. With that kind of luck with matchmaking, you need to go to vegas seriously. I think I have gotten 2 10 win streaks in my entire time playing league. As the saying goes, even a blind squirrel gets a nut now and again. Im sure there are lots of people at low skill levels who have had huge win streaks, its 20% skill 80% luck remember. So 80% of those win streaks is luck. Math doesnt lie.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Actually no challenger has anywhere near a 67% win rate. And in Any tier its still depends on your 4 team mates, and the 5 against you. Any skilled player has a 20% better chance to win the game. If they can roam and get another player who does not play stupidly pretty fed, then that helps the team out alot. If you have not read any of this entire thread then dont even post on here. I dont need your toxic flaming. It was said earlier in this thread, that some challenger level players on smurfs have a hard time getting out of gold. It is fact man. 80% luck. Math doesnt lie. You cant control your team mates.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Also, how many times have you watched any high level player play solo q by themselves? They always bring a duo partner with skill who works well with them, giving them a much better chance at wins. Look at the normal mmr of Dyrus, one of the most skilled players in THE WORLD. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Dyrus That normal average mmr for his normal game a month ago is 1756. I dunno what tier that would be in ranked but. I know he is more skilled than that. Normals have much much more less skilled players than ranked, and team builder is even worse than normal draft. Because people who just want to practice one champ, usually dont know the champ well enough to dominate their lane opponent. Its numbers man, dont argue with math, 2+2=4.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Also i want to share another example of how ranked is completely broken. This person has 109 wins 107 losses and is platinum 3 http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Cant%20Lane I just played a normal game with them, they were toxic, refused to group, constantly chasing kills and never protecting carries as gragas tank jungler, which was our only tank btw. 50% win ration in platinum 3, yet my gf who is far superior in win % and skill is still for the 2nd year in a row trying to claw her way out of silver.

MagicOfLight1 votes

You know, I played another one of my placement games as a solo q instead of queing with my girlfriend like i usually do. We had a blitz who brought teleport, so i assumed he was going top, someone picked yi as adc, cassiopia as top, and i picked braum as support to try to help yi since the comp was retarded. It was braum and blitz bot, vi jungle, yi mid, and cass top. The team had a smurf who was toxic, people would not group, our yi and vi would never join in on team fights, i ended up with the most kills on the team too as braum. I will never play ranked again, because the people you play with at low ranks are so retarded its not worth the stress.

Look at the comp http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1829052999/39496764?tab=overview look at the retarded team that these people put together, i was last pick so i picked to support yi with braums shield. I did the best i could out of this trashy situation, and 50% of games are like this.

MagicOfLight1 votes

It seems to me that there are so many smurfs from the aholes in mid rank that sabotage people trying to get placements and rank up. Because these kind of team comps should never happen in ranked...the fact that they do shows that it should not be based on just w/l

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

It seems to me that there are so many smurfs from the aholes in mid rank that sabotage people trying to get placements and rank up. Because these kind of team comps should never happen in ranked...the fact that they do shows that it should not be based on just w/l

You can either focus on your teammates or you can focus on yourself. Which do you think you have a better chance of changing?

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

You can either focus on your teammates or you can focus on yourself. Which do you think you have a better chance of changing?

Ultimatly increasing your individual performace and smart play will increase your wins; which will increase your rank. Just because bad things happen doesn't mean the system is broken.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Bad things happen yes, but having to play 2 more games and hoping you get lucky and get teams that actually perform instead of griefing and causing it to be unwinnable for you is unacceptable to me. It is completely unfair, that i should have to play 1000 games to move up into higher tiers instead of just playing say 50 or 100 based on my individual performance. Its aggrivating to be matched with people who constantly ruin your games by trolling. I dont play this game for a living, and nor will i play enough to rank up to where i should probably be because of all the afks, trolls, toxic feeders. Its ridiculous and it needs fixed. The system how it is now only benefits people who play it every single day, and play it to death.

MagicOfLight1 votes

Ok I gave it one last try to get a decent ranked game for placements. And this is what i got http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1829111604/39496764?tab=stats as you can see, my entire team was feeding like crazy giving kills in lane with no jungler help. The ez was afk half the game. Just ridiculous that people who play SO BADLY affect MY ranking. And this will be my last ranked game until individual skill comes into play. Because honestly. Ranking me based on what this team did this game, and ignoring the fact that I tried my best and did not feed them super bad. Im done.

Subject 51 votes

I'm trying to think of this thing called a something system where it compares skill levels l1ke bax to bax and sutff like that. Oh well, goin bak to watch tsm win more den 53% of dare games.

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