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Quinn Suggestions

Whiddin··5 votes·882 views

Tl:dr - Flip Harrier around, change Vault to a ground-targeted leap, fix her AA, other improvements.

So Quinn is not at the top of the list when it comes to pickage (0.89%) and I think the main reason is that her kit is just clunky. Her skills make thematic sense, and are theoretically effective, but they just don't have the same kind of usefulness in a real game.

  • Despite its power, Harrier is difficult to predict, and often messes up CS timing or the minion is marked just as it dies, wasting the effect.
  • Her attack animation takes so long to complete it even sounds long.
  • Vault is fraught with issues, like being her only movement CC, yet placing her further away, sometimes even out of range of the target.

Here's my take on what they could/should be:

P) Harrier Static Cooldown: 14/12/10/8 [reduced with rank of (R)] Valor watches Quinn fight from the sky above. Every [14-8] seconds Valor will swoop down and attack the target of Quinn's most recent attack for [25-215] + (50% bonus AD) physical damage. Target must be within [1600ish] range.

This turns Harrier on its head: QUINN marks, VALOR deals damage. This sets up a more pro-active pattern of play. Every 14-8ish seconds Quinn will want to tag a champion in order to get the most harrass out of this passive. I'm thinking it could work such that the "charge" is ready for Quinn's first auto attack if she hasn't attacked anything for the previous 14-8 seconds or if her last target is dead. Additionally, because this is a flat damage dealing passive and not an autoattack enhancement, it won't get added to spikey crits and it won't provide Quinn with bonus lifesteal. I believe these trade-offs are enough to keep the damage roughly the same as in the live game, while allowing Quinn to activate it on command more often; see (W) and (E) below. Also, because Valor is the one doing damage with Harrier, he now gets to use it during Tag Team! Everyone wins (read on)!

Q) Blinding Assault ACTIVE: Quinn commands Valor to fly forwards in a line, stopping if he collides with an enemy Champion or Large/Epic monster. Valor then deals physical damage and blinds nearby enemies within 210-range for 1.5 seconds. At maximum range, Valor will perform his attack automatically. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor deals physical damage to all enemies within 275-range of himself and blinds them for 1.5 seconds.

This small difference is really just a quality-of-life change. I think Q is okay as it stands, but there are so many times I wish it hadn't hit that one minion who just decided to mosey around in front of the champ. This would make it mechanically very similar to Ashe's (R) Enchanted Crystal Arrow, though obviously with Blinding Assault's current limited range. It still deals damage to everything, the only change is what it collides with.

W) Heightened Senses PASSIVE: When Harrier activates Quinn is granted bonus attack speed and flat movement speed for 3 seconds PASSIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor gains bonus attack speed. ACTIVE: All area within range is revealed for 2 seconds. Harrier is immediately readied. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: All area within range is revealed for 2 seconds. Valor deals bonus Harrier damage on his next basic attack.

Heightened Senses is essentially the same as in Live, except that it also allows Quinn to proc Harrier on demand. This means a careful Quinn player can make big harrassment plays every 40-50 seconds, or Quinn can save it to get the finishing blow on an out-of-range enemy, similar to Twitch's (E) Contaminate functionality. Meanwhile, she now has to balance its defensive power against its new offensive uses. For Valor, it becomes an auto-attack reset on-hit ability. Maybe this part is too strong, but hey, it's my thread.

E) Vault ACTIVE: Quinn dashes a short distance. If she collides with an enemy or neutral unit, she knocks it back a short distance and slows the unit's movement speed by 50%. This slow decays over 2 seconds. She then leaps off and lands near where she began the dash. Valor will immediately strike this target for Harrier damage. This does not interact with Harrier's cooldown. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor dashes to a target enemy and applies the same slow, knockback and Harrier damage, but does not leap off the target.

  • There are several more suggestions for Vault in the comments below. I'll stick the latest version of Vault in after the context for this first pass.

Here's the real problem-child of Quinn's current kit. With old vault, when you're chasing it's often just out of range, and the target gets away. Or if you are in range it puts you further away than you just were, with only a small slow. When you use it on a minion or monster half the time you have to move closer before you can shoot. When you're trying to escape it momentarily brings you closer to your target (R-spam Cho'gath still chomps you!). In spite of this, the effect of applying Harrier makes Vault a key part of Quinn's current highest-damage play pattern. Somehow we need to preserve this functionality without the icky bits mentioned above.

To solve this, it seems obvious to me that it should be changed from a Unit-Targeted dash to a Directional dash. I believe that this change alone could bring Quinn 100% back into the game. Most other Unit-targeted dashes are on tanks or assassins. Quinn is a Marksman. She should share the dash type of Caitlin (E), Corki (W), Graves (E), Kalista (P), Lucian (E), and Vayne (Q)! Take note, also, that many of these are shorter-ranged carries, just like Quinn! Now, it might make more logistical or thematic sense as a Ground-Targed dash, like Tristana's (W) [Ezreal's (E) is technically a Blink], but the overall result is the same: Quinn gets to move to a place instead of to a unit. This means you can use it as just a repositioning tool OR to enhance your damage combo. VALOR, however, is an assassin. He gets to keep his Unit-Targeting.

As a bonus, tying its damage to Harrier makes it effectively identical to Lucian's (E), in that it is dependent on Quinn's AD scaling and level rather than the rank of the ability. This allows it to remain relevent as a damage ability even in the mid-game when it may have only one rank. This may sound like a down-grade, since old vault did damage and applied Harrier, but you have to keep in mind that a) Vault is now much more useful, b) old vault didn't guarantee the Harrier shot to land, c) Quinn can now activate Harrier with (W) at range, and d) I also explicitly put in that it doesn't reset Harrier's normal cooldown. Ideally, you Vault in just before the normal Harrier is ready, start auto-attacking to tag your prey, then (P) activates, then you hit (Q) and (W) for a big 3-Harrier+Blind combo.

E) Vault -- Latest Version from Comments ACTIVE: Quinn leaps to a target location. If Quinn lands on any unit, she will rebound off of it [half of Vault's range] in the direction from which she came. If Quinn enters a movement command while leaping during Vault, she will rebound off the target in that direction after she hits, moving half of Vault's range (within 90° to either side of her original path). If she lands on an enemy or neutral unit, she knocks it back a short distance and slows the unit's movement speed by 50%. This slow decays over 2 seconds. Valor will immediately strike this target for Harrier damage. This does not interact with Harrier's cooldown.

These changes allow Quinn to continue interrupting channels reliably, while preserving her options. It's mostly inspired by Gnar's (E) and Kalista's (P). Now Quinn can Vault straight back, or to the side like a Knight in chess. We also considered replacing the "Harrier hits immediately" part with a cooldown-reducing effect, though I don't like it as much: Colliding with Vault also reduces Harrier's current cooldown by half of its base cooldown. This would separate good Quinns from great Quinns, though. Optimally, you would AA your target, let Harrier activate, THEN Vault to reduce the cooldown, wait for the next proc, then hit (W) immediately after for 3 total Harriers. This makes it a 6-second encounter for optimal play at sub-6 levels, or 4 seconds at levels 16+. Less-perfect play would be to Vault first to hit for a surprise early Harrier, then (W) for only 2 total Harriers.

R) Tag Team / Skystrike ACTIVE: For 20 seconds, Valor replaces Quinn on the battlefield as a mobile melee attacker with alternate versions of Quinn's abilities. Valor can move through units, has 8/12/16% bonus Life steal, and gains greatly increased movement speed that gradually decreases to a lower amount while in combat. For the duration, Quinn can use Skystrike once. Skystrike ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Quinn returns to perform Skystrike, dealing physical damage to all enemies within range. The damage is increased by 1.34% for every 1% of the target's missing health, capping at 100% bonus damage (200% total damage) against enemies with 75% or more missing health. If Skystrike has not been cast during Tag Team, it will be cast automatically when Tag Team ends. If Valor is killed, Skystrike will be cast automatically.

Tag Team is what makes Demacia's Wings unique. It changes the unit from a marksman into a turret-eating assassin for 20 seconds (think Zed or Shaco). Some changes to the basic abilities support and enhance Valor's role as an assassin, giving him a little more burst, and the bonus Lifesteal is to help him stay alive in melee. It's not crucial, but I like the idea; it could be flat 10% or something. I've also changed Skystrike's missing health scaling to match Riven's (R) Wind Slash-style scaling up to 75% missing health, which honestly makes much more sense. The final change may be a tad too much, but I think it's a cool idea to punish the opponents for killing Valor. It makes his opponents think twice about killing him, and that hesitation may be all he needs to get the kill or get away (much like Shaco with the clone). Kog'Maw essentially has this as his passive, but he's often so far away from his targets that he's not really a threat. Perhaps it could do half damage, or not scale with missing health, or have a 2-second delay in the case of Valor's death. Or you could do Life steal OR death-Skystrike.

That's it! Quinns unite!

16 Comments

OhthePiplup2 votes

Some pretty good idea's actually

IGotScuttleCrabs2 votes

Problem I have with your vault is that trying to use it on a champion would result in the same problem you have with her current blinding assault. A minion. A support. That fat ass 6 stacks Cho. Are all going to be in the way of you vaulting to an adc or to the Kat spinning around that you want to interrupt. That free dash just for mobility sounds great on paper but you also lose a lot of reliability.

Now what I would like and perhaps what you were going for: Quinn can jump to wherever the cursor is. If Quinn lands on a champ she will vault off them back in the direction she came and land at max range.

Other ideas I've had for making Vault amazing: She can vault off walls. Vault works in a 2 part click. You vault to a location then towards the direction of your cursor. So if you want, you can vault straight back, vault over like mini gnars jump, or vault off the side of them. To make it less spurattic I think limiting it to back, over, 90° to left/right would be the max.

Add in the wall vault and you could jump off/over a wall to clear a lot of distance. Or vault off the side of the wall for a fancy dodge.

Whiddin1 votes

I see what you're saying here. My point was more about allowing Quinn to use it to get around rather than specifically to hit someone, while maintainting the option to do so. You could go AROUND the minions or Cho to reposition safely without having to go THROUGH them.

I didn't think about channels like Kat's but that's an excellent point. The Ground-Targeted dash like Tristana's would be just fine; I mentioned this in the context paragraph. My only concern with this is that it would become an AOE interrupt like Aatrox's (Q), which I think would be too powerful for a markswoman. Perhaps the target circle could be very small?

I also like your 2-part spell idea, like Zed's or LeBlanc's (W):

FIRST CAST: Quinn dashes a short distance, leaving behind a return pad. Quinn can activate Vault again in the following 2 seconds. If she collides with an enemy or neutral unit [. . .] SECOND CAST: Quinn jumps back to the return pad.

Or it could just be a "if you click while you're moving" a la Kalista's (P):

If Quinn enters a movement command while dashing during Vault, she will rebound off the target in that direction when she hits, dashing a short distance (within a 90° arc).

IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

Yea i was thinking more like Kalista passive for the vault.

The problem with you're vault/dash and saying you can reposition to hit your target is that Quinns attack range is very short so she has limited ease in moving "around" a target just to use an ability. I feel she'd need a secondary dash just to work around "Cho" just to get to "Varus".

Whiddin1 votes

Graves has exactly the same auto-attack range, and Lucian has less!

Quinn's Vault currently has 700* range on a 12-8 second cooldown, and procs Harrier.

Graves' Quickdraw is a 425 range dash on a 22-14 sec cool (minus AA), and provides AS. Lucian's Relentless Pursuit is a 425 range dash on an 18-14 sec cool (minus P), and procs Lightslinger.

Vayne Tumble: . . . . . . . . 300 _6-2 _ <- much lower Caitlyn 90 Calibur Net: . . 400 18-10 Graves Quickdraw: . . . . . 425 22-14 (AA) Lucian Pursuit: . . . . . . . . 425 ** _18-14 _(P) Kalista Martial Poise: . . ~450** ∞ Ezreal Arcane Shift: . . . . 475 19-11 (Q) Corki Valkyrie: . . . . . . . . 800 26-14 <- much higher, 100 mana Tristana Rocket Jump: . . . .900 22-14 (kill)

New Vault could be a 475ish range dash on a 14-10ish cool without hurting her viability.

To be fair, none of these are colliding skillshots like the proposed Vault. That is, you might still run in to minions, unlike Graves or Lucian. To alleviate that we could add in the Kalista-style rebound or just make it a Ground-Target as we discussed. Or both.

As an aside, Tristana seems to be the extremely lucky outlier in this case, but I think that is owed to her somewhat all-in-and-get-out kit, or perhaps merely a relic of her AP days. It's also her only CC and her only instant-damage basic ability, and she is the only person on this list without a skillshot. That's a power budget for you!

  • (Wiki says 700, but skillshots are ranged edge-to-edge. I'm not sure if this includes linear dash skillshots, but spells (i.e. Vault) are center-to-center. This would mean the difference is more like 425 vs 600)
IGotScuttleCrabs1 votes

Well Lucian and Graves typically use their dash for a reposition. I feel Quinn uses her vault for burst more. Her Harrier proc>vault>harrier proc is her main combo and damage considering her auto attacking is garbage due to how she performs it.

Whiddin1 votes

Yes, I mentioned that briefly at the beginning. The AA animation needs to be cleaned up somethin' fierce.

Vault could be re-constructed in a similar way so that like Graves (who gets more AS for a few seconds) and Lucian (who gets an on-hit effect saved up for several seconds) it could reset the Harrier cooldown in a similar way to my proposed Heightened Senses, so that it's basically on the next hit she gets bonus damage. My only concern with that was that the new Harrier doesn't necessarily need her to auto attack, so it would basically be free damage just for dashing, as long as your preferred target is already tagged.

I suppose we could make it something like:

After Vaulting, Quinn's next basic attack will reset the cooldown of Harrier.

so that Harrier can be ready while you're coming back from lane, then procced by your first auto attack, then you Vault. It doesn't hit Harrier again until you actually AA them again. This more closely mirrors its current pattern.

Or: _ Colliding with Vault also reduces Harrier's current cooldown by [4-6ish seconds or half]._

This makes it not immediate power, but speeds up her best combat considerably. It could be programmed as half of the total base cooldown (hence the 4-6ish being half of my 8-12ish) or it could be set to cut the current cool in half (this is less powerful unless she just procced it before vaulting).

Come to think of it, I suppose Harrier need not have a static cooldown. It could easily be set to have a 14 second cooldown at level 1 and an 8 sec cool at 18. It could be gated by level or by rank of (R). Though I'm not sure he needs it, I think Rumble's passive would feel better with a similar treatment (lower duration Overheat with ranks of (R): 6 - 5.5 - 5 - 4.5).

Anonagon2 votes

Glad to see Quinn threads. Girl needs some love. However, I do have some criticisms of your suggestions.

I don't see much point in changing Quinn's passive. I don't see what you are trying to achieve with your suggestion for her passive.

I do not think Q should pass through minions: Its your source of early waveclear (which you very much need, especially against things like Tristana who auto-push), and its kinda essential to jungle Quinn if you wanna do that.

I like the idea of adding some increased functionality to her W, but I'm not sure I like what you've done with it. Of course, I also didn't get your passive, and this is tied to that.

I've typically been very against changing Quinn's E drastically, but I do like the idea of a directional dash that performs the leap if it hits. It would very much help her deal with the common support picks right now, with their "dodge or die" skillshots (Morg, Leona, Thresh). EDIT: I'm glad I read some of the other posts, because I realize that the targeted dash thing wouldn't really work because then people can bodyblock you. It would be ideal if it were a ground target like Gnar's hop, that way you can still go through minions while retaining the freedom of a directional dash.

The damage cap on her ult is something that definitely needs to happen. Its been too long.

There's once thing that you seem to have neglected in all of this... her shit-tier AA animations. Many people ask for range buffs on Quinn, but what they really want is fixes to her horrendous, worst-in-class AA animations, which are only made more apparent by her short range. AA animation fixes alone could push Quinn into viability.

OhthePiplup1 votes

Maybe there should be the ability to activate Q mid air to explode early. So she can explode it in minions if she wants

Whiddin1 votes

It can still hit minions, you just have to position more carefully so the end of the effect is where you want it. Valor travels too fast to re-activate like Anivia's (Q)

Whiddin1 votes

Lemme see if I can break it down more clearly, in order of shortest to longest response.

  • (W) HEIGHTENED SENSES See "Second implication" under Harrier below.

  • (E) VAULT Yes, I think we ultimately decided it would work well like Gnar, maybe with a bonus for choosing your rebound a la Kalista. I'll go ahead and edit that into the OP.

  • AUTO ATTACK Yes, I did mention it at the top, though nobody seems to have seen it. I didn't write a paragraph about it because the obvious thing is to shorten it like they've done for half of the older champs now. Also, my Harrier changes would eliminate the need for a separate animation.

  • (Q) BLINDING ASSAULT It still hits minions. It just passes through them until it gets to the end of its range, where it does the same radius damage. Hence the line where it says: "Valor then deals physical damage and blinds nearby enemies within 210-range for 1.5 seconds. At maximum range, Valor will perform his attack automatically." Nearby enemies means everything that's not on your team. This means you could aim it to hit the Cannon minion that's behind the front line, and it may be able to hit all 7 minions instead of just the closest three. This is definitely an improvement.

  • (P) HARRIER The problem with current Harrier is mostly that it is unreliable. All the evidence you need for someone who's never played Quinn is in the "additional information" from the wiki:

Harrier's targeting priority is as follows:

  1. Last enemy hit. If the last enemy hit was a small minion, it appears to select a different target.
  2. Lowest health enemy champion.
  3. Lowest health enemy minion. Harrier's bonus damage will only apply for autoattacks that are cast after the mark is applied. The mark will not be triggered for autoattacks that were en-route when it was applied.

That #1 is confusing enough. Then, it might mark the minion you're about to shoot, bringing it unexpectedly low and causing you to lose the CS. It might mark the CS you're already in the process of taking, which wastes the Heightened Senses passive for the next 10 seconds (because you're punished for "missing the opportunity"). It might mark the enemy Carry who then just backs up, or the Blitzcrank who would stunlock you if you got close, again wasting the effect. To make matters worse, it seems to lenghten her AA animation. If Valor is allowed to continue choosing the target Quinn will continue to suffer.

My version reposted:

P) Harrier Static Cooldown: 14/12/10/8 [reduced with rank of (R)] Valor watches Quinn fight from the sky above. Every XX seconds Valor will swoop down and attack the target of Quinn's most recent attack for XX physical damage.

QUINN marks, VALOR deals damage. Harrier is still on a timer.

First implication: if you've just gotten back from shopping or roaming, it is an on-hit effect, like Shen's: P) Ki Strike Static Cooldown: 9 Shen's next basic attack deals bonus damage.

That is, on your first attack you do (Valor does) extra damage. This part is quite similar to Ashe's previous (P) Focus, which gave her a crit on her first attack after waiting. The problem with that, as pointed out by Riot, was that it both encouraged her to pay for crit to get more free crits (no sense) and discouraged her from attacking continuously. By keeping it on a static timer Quinn is free to continue attacking and Valor's choice of when to attack is still sorta out of Quinn's control. I also wanted to avoid an Nth attack mechanic like Master Yi's, to preserve the interaction between Quinn and Valor and prevent Quinn from becoming Vayne.

Second implication: Harrier can be activated separately from auto-attacks by another ability, like a single-target Twitch (E) Contaminate: E) Contaminate ACTIVE: Twitch damages enemies afflicted by Deadly Venom, dealing physical damage.

Because Valor is doing the damage, and because he's not in Quinn's body, he could do it at range. When Twitch performs an Auto Attack, that target is marked. This allows Twitch to hit that target again at the massive 1200 range (more than double his auto-attack range) with Contaminate if the target gets too far away. For Quinn, the mark is just like Vayne's (W) Silver Bolts in that it can only affect one target at a time.

Third implication: Harrier does damage automatically on cooldown if Quinn has a mark in range, very much like Blitz's (R) passive: R) Static Field PASSIVE: Every XX seconds, Blitzcrank fires a lightning bolt at a random enemy within XX range, dealing damage.

Valor performs the new Harrier attack automatcally and independent of Quinn's other actions every 14-8 seconds as long as Quinn has marked a target in range. This range may be 1200 like Twitch's or even larger, like 2100 to match Heightened Senses. I think this would be okay, since it only hits one target. Subject to balance, obviously.

Fourth implication: Harrier is now Valor's attack, and he can use it when he's on the field. Because he's awesome.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

Leave her q how it is, I need my jungle quinn dammit <3

FlashnFuse2 votes

Yay, I'm not the only jungle quinn :D

Whiddin2 votes

It still has limited range, so you can open on the camp in just the same way by standing off a bit. If you need it twice, just Vault before you use it!

Alternatively, you could just change it so it says "champion or Large/Epic monster"

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

now i like that change xD

Whiddin1 votes

Done!

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