Quinn Suggestions

Whiddin·5/24/2015, 5:52:50 AM·5 votes·882 views

Tl:dr - Flip Harrier around, change Vault to a ground-targeted leap, fix her AA, other improvements.

So Quinn is not at the top of the list when it comes to pickage (0.89%) and I think the main reason is that her kit is just clunky. Her skills make thematic sense, and are theoretically effective, but they just don't have the same kind of usefulness in a real game.

  • Despite its power, Harrier is difficult to predict, and often messes up CS timing or the minion is marked just as it dies, wasting the effect.
  • Her attack animation takes so long to complete it even sounds long.
  • Vault is fraught with issues, like being her only movement CC, yet placing her further away, sometimes even out of range of the target.

Here's my take on what they could/should be:

P) Harrier Static Cooldown: 14/12/10/8 [reduced with rank of (R)] Valor watches Quinn fight from the sky above. Every [14-8] seconds Valor will swoop down and attack the target of Quinn's most recent attack for [25-215] + (50% bonus AD) physical damage. Target must be within [1600ish] range.

This turns Harrier on its head: QUINN marks, VALOR deals damage. This sets up a more pro-active pattern of play. Every 14-8ish seconds Quinn will want to tag a champion in order to get the most harrass out of this passive. I'm thinking it could work such that the "charge" is ready for Quinn's first auto attack if she hasn't attacked anything for the previous 14-8 seconds or if her last target is dead. Additionally, because this is a flat damage dealing passive and not an autoattack enhancement, it won't get added to spikey crits and it won't provide Quinn with bonus lifesteal. I believe these trade-offs are enough to keep the damage roughly the same as in the live game, while allowing Quinn to activate it on command more often; see (W) and (E) below. Also, because Valor is the one doing damage with Harrier, he now gets to use it during Tag Team! Everyone wins (read on)!

Q) Blinding Assault ACTIVE: Quinn commands Valor to fly forwards in a line, stopping if he collides with an enemy Champion or Large/Epic monster. Valor then deals physical damage and blinds nearby enemies within 210-range for 1.5 seconds. At maximum range, Valor will perform his attack automatically. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor deals physical damage to all enemies within 275-range of himself and blinds them for 1.5 seconds.

This small difference is really just a quality-of-life change. I think Q is okay as it stands, but there are so many times I wish it hadn't hit that one minion who just decided to mosey around in front of the champ. This would make it mechanically very similar to Ashe's (R) Enchanted Crystal Arrow, though obviously with Blinding Assault's current limited range. It still deals damage to everything, the only change is what it collides with.

W) Heightened Senses PASSIVE: When Harrier activates Quinn is granted bonus attack speed and flat movement speed for 3 seconds PASSIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor gains bonus attack speed. ACTIVE: All area within range is revealed for 2 seconds. Harrier is immediately readied. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: All area within range is revealed for 2 seconds. Valor deals bonus Harrier damage on his next basic attack.

Heightened Senses is essentially the same as in Live, except that it also allows Quinn to proc Harrier on demand. This means a careful Quinn player can make big harrassment plays every 40-50 seconds, or Quinn can save it to get the finishing blow on an out-of-range enemy, similar to Twitch's (E) Contaminate functionality. Meanwhile, she now has to balance its defensive power against its new offensive uses. For Valor, it becomes an auto-attack reset on-hit ability. Maybe this part is too strong, but hey, it's my thread.

E) Vault ACTIVE: Quinn dashes a short distance. If she collides with an enemy or neutral unit, she knocks it back a short distance and slows the unit's movement speed by 50%. This slow decays over 2 seconds. She then leaps off and lands near where she began the dash. Valor will immediately strike this target for Harrier damage. This does not interact with Harrier's cooldown. ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Valor dashes to a target enemy and applies the same slow, knockback and Harrier damage, but does not leap off the target.

  • There are several more suggestions for Vault in the comments below. I'll stick the latest version of Vault in after the context for this first pass.

Here's the real problem-child of Quinn's current kit. With old vault, when you're chasing it's often just out of range, and the target gets away. Or if you are in range it puts you further away than you just were, with only a small slow. When you use it on a minion or monster half the time you have to move closer before you can shoot. When you're trying to escape it momentarily brings you closer to your target (R-spam Cho'gath still chomps you!). In spite of this, the effect of applying Harrier makes Vault a key part of Quinn's current highest-damage play pattern. Somehow we need to preserve this functionality without the icky bits mentioned above.

To solve this, it seems obvious to me that it should be changed from a Unit-Targeted dash to a Directional dash. I believe that this change alone could bring Quinn 100% back into the game. Most other Unit-targeted dashes are on tanks or assassins. Quinn is a Marksman. She should share the dash type of Caitlin (E), Corki (W), Graves (E), Kalista (P), Lucian (E), and Vayne (Q)! Take note, also, that many of these are shorter-ranged carries, just like Quinn! Now, it might make more logistical or thematic sense as a Ground-Targed dash, like Tristana's (W) [Ezreal's (E) is technically a Blink], but the overall result is the same: Quinn gets to move to a place instead of to a unit. This means you can use it as just a repositioning tool OR to enhance your damage combo. VALOR, however, is an assassin. He gets to keep his Unit-Targeting.

As a bonus, tying its damage to Harrier makes it effectively identical to Lucian's (E), in that it is dependent on Quinn's AD scaling and level rather than the rank of the ability. This allows it to remain relevent as a damage ability even in the mid-game when it may have only one rank. This may sound like a down-grade, since old vault did damage and applied Harrier, but you have to keep in mind that a) Vault is now much more useful, b) old vault didn't guarantee the Harrier shot to land, c) Quinn can now activate Harrier with (W) at range, and d) I also explicitly put in that it doesn't reset Harrier's normal cooldown. Ideally, you Vault in just before the normal Harrier is ready, start auto-attacking to tag your prey, then (P) activates, then you hit (Q) and (W) for a big 3-Harrier+Blind combo.

E) Vault -- Latest Version from Comments ACTIVE: Quinn leaps to a target location. If Quinn lands on any unit, she will rebound off of it [half of Vault's range] in the direction from which she came. If Quinn enters a movement command while leaping during Vault, she will rebound off the target in that direction after she hits, moving half of Vault's range (within 90° to either side of her original path). If she lands on an enemy or neutral unit, she knocks it back a short distance and slows the unit's movement speed by 50%. This slow decays over 2 seconds. Valor will immediately strike this target for Harrier damage. This does not interact with Harrier's cooldown.

These changes allow Quinn to continue interrupting channels reliably, while preserving her options. It's mostly inspired by Gnar's (E) and Kalista's (P). Now Quinn can Vault straight back, or to the side like a Knight in chess. We also considered replacing the "Harrier hits immediately" part with a cooldown-reducing effect, though I don't like it as much: Colliding with Vault also reduces Harrier's current cooldown by half of its base cooldown. This would separate good Quinns from great Quinns, though. Optimally, you would AA your target, let Harrier activate, THEN Vault to reduce the cooldown, wait for the next proc, then hit (W) immediately after for 3 total Harriers. This makes it a 6-second encounter for optimal play at sub-6 levels, or 4 seconds at levels 16+. Less-perfect play would be to Vault first to hit for a surprise early Harrier, then (W) for only 2 total Harriers.

R) Tag Team / Skystrike ACTIVE: For 20 seconds, Valor replaces Quinn on the battlefield as a mobile melee attacker with alternate versions of Quinn's abilities. Valor can move through units, has 8/12/16% bonus Life steal, and gains greatly increased movement speed that gradually decreases to a lower amount while in combat. For the duration, Quinn can use Skystrike once. Skystrike ACTIVE - TAG TEAM: Quinn returns to perform Skystrike, dealing physical damage to all enemies within range. The damage is increased by 1.34% for every 1% of the target's missing health, capping at 100% bonus damage (200% total damage) against enemies with 75% or more missing health. If Skystrike has not been cast during Tag Team, it will be cast automatically when Tag Team ends. If Valor is killed, Skystrike will be cast automatically.

Tag Team is what makes Demacia's Wings unique. It changes the unit from a marksman into a turret-eating assassin for 20 seconds (think Zed or Shaco). Some changes to the basic abilities support and enhance Valor's role as an assassin, giving him a little more burst, and the bonus Lifesteal is to help him stay alive in melee. It's not crucial, but I like the idea; it could be flat 10% or something. I've also changed Skystrike's missing health scaling to match Riven's (R) Wind Slash-style scaling up to 75% missing health, which honestly makes much more sense. The final change may be a tad too much, but I think it's a cool idea to punish the opponents for killing Valor. It makes his opponents think twice about killing him, and that hesitation may be all he needs to get the kill or get away (much like Shaco with the clone). Kog'Maw essentially has this as his passive, but he's often so far away from his targets that he's not really a threat. Perhaps it could do half damage, or not scale with missing health, or have a 2-second delay in the case of Valor's death. Or you could do Life steal OR death-Skystrike.

That's it! Quinns unite!

16 Comments

OhthePiplup5/24/2015, 7:49:28 AM2 votes

Some pretty good idea's actually

IGotScuttleCrabs5/24/2015, 3:44:54 PM2 votes

Problem I have with your vault is that trying to use it on a champion would result in the same problem you have with her current blinding assault. A minion. A support. That fat ass 6 stacks Cho. Are all going to be in the way of you vaulting to an adc or to the Kat spinning around that you want to interrupt. That free dash just for mobility sounds great on paper but you also lose a lot of reliability.

Now what I would like and perhaps what you were going for: Quinn can jump to wherever the cursor is. If Quinn lands on a champ she will vault off them back in the direction she came and land at max range.

Other ideas I've had for making Vault amazing: She can vault off walls. Vault works in a 2 part click. You vault to a location then towards the direction of your cursor. So if you want, you can vault straight back, vault over like mini gnars jump, or vault off the side of them. To make it less spurattic I think limiting it to back, over, 90° to left/right would be the max.

Add in the wall vault and you could jump off/over a wall to clear a lot of distance. Or vault off the side of the wall for a fancy dodge.

Anonagon5/25/2015, 5:59:25 AM2 votes

Glad to see Quinn threads. Girl needs some love. However, I do have some criticisms of your suggestions.

I don't see much point in changing Quinn's passive. I don't see what you are trying to achieve with your suggestion for her passive.

I do not think Q should pass through minions: Its your source of early waveclear (which you very much need, especially against things like Tristana who auto-push), and its kinda essential to jungle Quinn if you wanna do that.

I like the idea of adding some increased functionality to her W, but I'm not sure I like what you've done with it. Of course, I also didn't get your passive, and this is tied to that.

I've typically been very against changing Quinn's E drastically, but I do like the idea of a directional dash that performs the leap if it hits. It would very much help her deal with the common support picks right now, with their "dodge or die" skillshots (Morg, Leona, Thresh). EDIT: I'm glad I read some of the other posts, because I realize that the targeted dash thing wouldn't really work because then people can bodyblock you. It would be ideal if it were a ground target like Gnar's hop, that way you can still go through minions while retaining the freedom of a directional dash.

The damage cap on her ult is something that definitely needs to happen. Its been too long.

There's once thing that you seem to have neglected in all of this... her shit-tier AA animations. Many people ask for range buffs on Quinn, but what they really want is fixes to her horrendous, worst-in-class AA animations, which are only made more apparent by her short range. AA animation fixes alone could push Quinn into viability.

Yosuke Apperu5/24/2015, 6:05:33 PM1 votes

Leave her q how it is, I need my jungle quinn dammit <3