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Why Kayn is an excellent example of poor game design...

theTyger·12/14/2017, 12:37:43 PM·4 votes·1,277 views

PSA: This thread is NOT A DISCUSSION ON BALANCE! Something can be perfectly balanced and still be poor game design. See example here.

That out of the way, I decided to give Kayn a shot recently. So I watch the champ reveal and he's touted as being super flexible because you can choose to change his role in the middle of the match. Sounds pretty cool, right? Well, spoiler alert, that isn't quite true and I'll explain why.

After watching some vods I decided I wanted to play the assassin version of kayn with the Dark Harvest keystone. So I early pick him in a normal draft game. A problem quickly arises. The enemy team is almost all melee... Well, that makes things difficult, but I figure I'm up for the challenge. So I try to focus my ganks on lanes with a ranged champ. Not even to get kills or summoners, necessarily, but just to get (is it orbs?). This definitely does not go as planned and, the way the early game goes, I end up having to choose between ganking the lanes I'm supposed to based on where people are on the map, or I can try to force plays in places I shouldn't in order try to get the orbs I want.

This is a HUGE strike in terms of the general design of the champ. What this means is that I'm less choosing the role I want to play mid game, and rather getting stuck with one. Either that or wait another 4 minutes (4 minutes!!!!). With that kind of a wait it's entirely possible for the game to end before the cd is even up. The only other option, apparently, being to feed my derriere off trying to get the right type of orbs early game, but I digress.

In other words, instead of getting a champ where you get to decide what role you want to play mid game, you're picking a champ where circumstances partially beyond your control are going to decide what role you're going to play for you. And then the game isn't even going to tell you what that role is until it actually happens at 15 or so minutes into the game. Which leads me to my next point.

I can't tell which form is winning. If I've done damage to both ranged and melee champs, there's no way to know. If I'm deciding to just run with whatever form pops up first, which I more or less feel forced to because of the insanely long cd attached to defying whatever RNGesus has decided to deal to me this day, I can't tell which items I should be buying. If the darkin is winning, I obviously want more bruiser-y items. But if Kayn is winning, I want things that build out of serrated dirk. So, what, am I just supposed to buy a ton of long swords and hope for the best?

Seriously, Rito, WTF...

My two cents?

  1. drastically reduce (or better yet completely remove) the 4 minute penalty for opting into the opposite form that fate has chosen for you
  2. give clear indication as to which form is winning and by how much

Again, let me reiterate, this isn't about balance. This is me saying some of Kayns mechanics are frustrating to try to play around and are surprisingly lacking in clarity for such a modern champion.

20 Comments

Coopa12312/14/2017, 1:00:00 PM2 votes

So I watch the champ reveal and he's touted as being super flexible because you can choose to change his role in the middle of the match.

Where did you get that from? I don't remember them saying anything about changing his role in the middle of the match the last time I watched the champion spotlight. You either intentionally misrepresent that or you're remembering it incorrectly. Either or this point is irrelevant.

A problem quickly arises. The enemy team is almost all melee...

You just said Kayn is super flexible. If you're up against a melee team DON't go for the assassin version. Besides that I don't see a game in your match history where you were up against a mostly melee team + going assassin. So that was BS.

Immediately 2 points you either made up or got wrong entirely. Couldn't care about reading the rest, sorry

PhearBunny12/14/2017, 1:56:05 PM2 votes

You're right. Kayne would be a polished champ if they took the time to polish his transformation process.

Currently its completely out of wack for a multitude of reasons.

#1 Its based on range/melee towards blue/red. But really that's just lazy coding. Things like Gnar, Kled, and Urgot should under no circumstance generate Shadowassassin Transformation. Things like Jayce, Kayle, and melee assassins should under no circumstance generate Rhaast.

#2 You can generate Rhaast or Shadowassassin to like 80%+ and then for somereason when you do Transform, it gives you the Transformation that you weren't even building towards. Now you have a choice, completely miss your mid game powerspike(The only time Kayn is good) so that you can properly fit the matchup. or Just take the transformation it gave you, have 1-3 minutes of glory, before the transformation you were forced into becomes totally irrelevant because it isn't what the matchup called for.

#3 The 4minute wait is ridiculous, when its alrdy stacked onto a minimum of an 11minute wait just to turn into anything. The average is like 14:30 for high end Kayn players, add 4minutes onto, and you missed most of midgame, you're done.

#4 that fact that you have to choosingly pick your targets towards the end of your transformation bar, actually promotes you to avoid making good plays. Example, you don't want Shadowassassin, but bot lane is overextended.....if you go down there and take advantage of that, youre going to get the wrong transformation.

My suggestion would be to give him two separate transformation bars, so you can properly track what youre getting. Since the two forms wont combine into one transformation progress, increase the speed at which they are generated. After you complete a form, you are still able to complete the other transformation, but once both your transformation bars are filled, you are forced into whichever one you choose.

So, say you get Shadowassassin in 11minutes, but that's not what you want. You could go Shadowassassin until you fill your Rhaast bar a few mins later, but once you fill Rhaast, it will give you the option to stay Shadowassassin, or to become Rhaast. Whichever one you choose, is permanent at that point.

FOR JUSTICE12/14/2017, 12:55:52 PM1 votes

Actually the more time youre into the game, the more orbs you get per gank. You dont nessicerrily have to camp 1 lane to get your prefferd form, just time the gank of that lane a bit later and youll be rewarded with more orbs for your preffered choice

Also right below his face icon on his HUD it does tell you which form is winning. It dosent give a numerical value, but it does tell which count of orbs is higher

Crystalysk12/14/2017, 1:53:00 PM1 votes

{quoted}

  1. drastically reduce (or better yet completely remove) the 4 minute penalty for opting into the opposite form that **fate has chosen for you **

Not really, range champions give you blue essences and melee champions give you red essences. So if you want red form you have to try to get more red essences and if you want blue form you need blue essences which kind of allows you to get the transformation you want.

PilotofWar12/14/2017, 2:14:20 PM1 votes

riot trying to scam me on the sale shop saying blood moon thresh is about 2000 rp orginial sales for 1350 i know better its 975 thanks riot for the scams

SEKAI12/14/2017, 7:01:35 PM1 votes

I think the issues you run into is simply fixed by playing Draft Norm or Ranked, though, where you know what kind of team you will be up against and build Kayn accordingly.

He's 2 champs in 1, you don't even need a secondary pick when "oh shit I got countered" happens, you just switch the build and you're good.

........

And it's not like you can't just wait an additional 4 minutes to get the form you want even if the enemy team comp is not convenient enough for you. Though I'd tend to agree 4 min (iirc) is probably too long, maybe 3 min or 2.5 is probably enough.