Does a champion need to be hard in order to be good and competitive?

HaloDragonX·7/17/2016, 1:10:42 AM·3 votes·753 views

Lately on the topic of Sona being very strong (if not broken) right now, and while I'm not saying she isn't broken, people are constantly saying "Sona is a no skill champion." But here's my question, does a champion need to take skill to be good? Why can't a champion be easy and good?

Speaking for example and comparison, let's look at Kayle and Azir. Their kits are different, but they both do a lot of the same thing when it comes down to it. Magic DPS, a peel ult, a gap closer, and abusing Rylai's. Their passives are completely different and serve different purposes, however just with sheer feeling, Azir's feels quite powerful while Kayle's doesn't feel that powerful (As seen from my various times of attacking Garen a ton and barely increasing in damage per hit).

Skip the below if you don't wanna see math and explanation.

> As seen by pro play, Azir is quite powerful and popular, but also hard. Meanwhile Kayle on the other hand isn't as strong and isn't very popular either, and quite easy. Looking at the ults, Kayle's can seem more clutch and is true invulnerability, however Azir's does a lot more than just peel. Kayle can save 1 ally with her ult, pretty good. However Azir can ult enemies away from himself and an ally, putting them too far away to even get in their attack range to hit Azir, plus they can't get close enough to CC Azir, where you can CC Kayle during her ult. Kayle's ult being technically weaker on the peel side, however Azir's ult can also displace enemies and block dashes. Kayle's ult can definitely be better in a few situations, but overall Azir's does more and has more uses. > In other parts, Kayle has a speed while Azir has a very long dash, clearly Azir wins this too. Especially when Kayle's W needs a lot of AP to be useful while Azir's gap closer length is all base effects, no AP needed. Kayle has heal with her W, while Azir has no sustain. However Azir's natural ranged attack and longer ranged with soldiers does allow him to stay a lot more safe than Kayle can. > Kayle has the small amount of splash damage and her Q for poke, while Azir has his W AA Q AA combo, and yes Kayle's Q mana cost and damage is higher than Azir's Q. Kinda Azir wins this too. Kayle does have a stronger slow on her Q (Unless Azir uses Q with 2 Soldiers then it's about equal), but it's not like her auto attacks have a ton of damage and her range to poke is quite low compared to Azir's, thus Kayle can be fought against where as Azir isn't so much. > Then the 2 have their DPS and base stats. For base stats I'll be using their lv 6 base stats. Same base MR (And since Azir deals more magic where as kayle deals more hybrid, Azir wins 1v1 obviously), Kayle has about 10 more base armor. Kayle has 100 more HP, but Azir has 36 more mana. Base stats seem fine, but one thing with Azir. If you're in his attack range attacking him (Assuming you're Kayle), and he's hitting you with autos and 1 Soldier, Kayle should probably winning the trade for Azir not kiting, but Kayle actually loses that trade. Now for DPS. Kayle does 62 base AD and 40 from her E for about 102. Azir, assuming he's just attack with 2 soldiers, 75 + 19, for around 94. (Not counting Azir is basic attacking at all, otherwise he'd have 63 base AD added to his, clearly beating Kayle.) And while Kayle's is 8 higher, most of it is AD damage, plus Azir's damage scales a lot better than Kayle, basically Azir is better probably by level 9. But wait, you didn't factor in attack speed! Kayle's normal attack speed is higher, but Azir's W passive nearly nulls out Kayle's runes (which are usually 24-28% attack speed). But this allows Azir to run runes for attack speed or magic pen, which Kayle isn't outstating.

So clearly Azir is kinda a better Kayle in both utility and damage. (Did I forget to say Azir's soldier damage AP ratio was DOUBLE Kayle's E damage? Obligatory Kayle's E is AoE Azir's soldier auto is a pass through attack, a weaker kind of AoE but still AoE.) Now this isn't some Anti-Azir circlejerk, but Azir is clearly a harder champion than Kayle, but also better. However, is it wrong if Kayle's damage or utility or something was buffed up to Azir's level? Effectively, Kayle would be Azir but easier and equally as powerful. She'd be pretty pickban if she did, but Azir is that but harder, which shows why it's hard to balance a difficult champion because skillcap often hides power. Sona is kinda like that, imagine if we had a harder champion who excels at what Sona does, that champion wouldn't have a high winrate but Sona being easier has a higher winrate.

Which kinda brings us back to the main question: Does a champion need to be hard to be good and competitive?

37 Comments

Martyrofsand7/17/2016, 1:42:02 AM3 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itVTcUztFMU

This guy covers it pretty well. To many ignorant idiots think skill is defined only via mechanical skill and believe that anything that isn't mechanically intensive is brainless. Generally you can see these people thinking Sona/Master Yi/Shen/Nunu/etc require no skill and should be worthless, while Zed/Yasuo/Riven/Vayne/Kalista/etc should all be the broken gods of the game who no one else can compare to simply because of the need for mechanical mastery.

People don't want to admit there are different forms of skill in the game and each champ depends on different forms of skill. Sona for example doesn't have the mechanical intensity of a Zed or Yasuo but she is completely immobile, and squishy as hell which means she has an damn near oppressive skill requirement when it comes to proper positioning to avoid getting caught and tag as many people with her auras as possible, all while managing her power chord for the correct situation. By contrast often times Yasuo/Zed don't give a damn about positioning because they can so freely change their position and jump around the map. Instead their skill requirements are the high mechanical requirements, and animation canceling.

Every champion requires some form of skill in order to be played well. Hard is relative based on what types of skills you excel in. Myself personally I am a high utility situationally aware, low mechanical player. Give me Mao/Sona/Annie/Janna/Orianna/etc who doesn't require mechanical intensity but instead depends on situational awareness, positioning, and correct timing/placement of critical abilities and I function extremely effectively because I am better able to read the, read the situations, and make plays based on it. Put me on one of the above mechanical champions and I die a horrible death because while trying to keep up with their mechanics I often lose focus on the situation and how best to react.

CerealBoxOfDoom7/17/2016, 2:43:07 AM2 votes

skill does not dictate power.

In competitive nobody cares if your champ takes skill or not, it either delivers or it doesnt

zlumpy7/17/2016, 1:43:03 AM2 votes

Short answer? Heck no. All champions should be good not just the "outplay champs". I really wanna see more nunu, galio, ziggs, so on and so on in more games.

FioraWillCarry7/17/2016, 2:41:35 AM1 votes

Feels so strange reading someone talking about my two main champs. Like what are the odds. Azir is a better teamfighter while Kayle is a superior duelist.

BloodyTompon7/17/2016, 2:52:30 AM1 votes

Yes and no. There are different types of 'difficult'. Rek'sai and Taliyah are difficult in a non-mechanical sense. Champs do ideally need some variance and they need to be able to scale with skill. We don't live in this ideal world though and there are champions that do not scale with skill well enough.

Now you spent a great deal of time talking about Azir. Azir has the opposite problem of 'easy' champs. Rather than not scaling with skill, they scale far too well with it. They have a similar output in terms of both scaling too well and not scaling with skill contribute to there being things that are meta or OP and UP in different elos.

The LDC7/17/2016, 3:02:04 AM1 votes

no not really look at annie and sona mains they pound there faces on there keyboards and they do realy good competivly and good in game

warpenguin5557/17/2016, 3:05:33 AM1 votes

Trundle Shen Irelia all make appearances so i would say no, but it certainly does help to have a high skill ceiling

EDIT: and Rammus top was a thing for a bit too

Kadavik7/17/2016, 4:34:16 AM1 votes

Champions that are not mecanically intensive allow you to focus more on your decision making. Thus yes, any champion can be competitive if played in a competitive manner.

Demi Alone7/17/2016, 6:44:57 AM1 votes

Mobility is op

Immortal spax7/17/2016, 9:06:54 AM1 votes

Im the first that dont play high mechanic champs, but i understand why many play them, its so wonderfull when you make an Azir Shuffle, An Insec, a 1v3 with Yasuo, a full Viper Riven combo, A Zed one shot combo and get out meanwhile you hear the "blop" behind you and "Zed is legendary", a Vayne 1v3 Gosu outplay.

Thats why even if you can win more and more games by just playing warwick more people tend to play lee sin, this is a game, and we play for fun.

And lets be real, Kayle and Sona are the two most boring champions in the game.

grug7/17/2016, 9:09:21 AM1 votes

champions that are hard or difficult to master, should be rewarded for being hard with number one example Lee Sin.

rewarded with ELO

Quepha7/17/2016, 1:22:06 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Why can't a champion be easy and good?

If it's strong enough to be good in competitive when they optimize absolutely everything, and it's easy enough that any player can optimize every part of the champion just as good as the pros, then the winrate in normal games at low elos would be sky high.

This has been the state of Sona for a long time, she's been an extremely high tier pick in normal games and was only seen very, very rarely in pro games since pros can't actually get much more out of her in a competitive environment than your typical player while a pro Thresh vs. your average Thresh is like a completely different champion.

420 grams7/17/2016, 7:18:51 PM1 votes

Yes and no. A hard champ shouldn't be able to completely destroy an easy one. At the same time, they do deserve to be able to do more if they are played right because they are high risk. High risk champs showoff have a high reward, and low risk ones should have a low reward (but they still get a reward nonetheless).

Lost R7/17/2016, 1:27:56 AM1 votes

Nnnnnnooooooo?

Master Yi is a good example. Yeah, you don't even need a GED to use him, and left uncontrolled he snowballs like nobody's business and murders the crap out of enemies, but he has massive weaknesses that roughly half of the roster can take advantage of. The thing is, most players don't think of these weaknesses either when the enemy picks them or they pick Yi. They go for a champion in the same vein as Yi (AD melee assassin) and then basically pray that they can snowball faster than the enemy, devolving the game into an arms race of who can deal the most damage the fastest in a straight out slugfest.

Yi's weakness, and the reason why he doesn't see much play at higher levels is his lack of range, his fragility, and his basic attack dependency. He closes the gap fast and catches the enemy off guard by swinging with lightning speed, but if you have something to negate that advantage he has, his menace falls off tremendously. Rammus, for example, with his damage reflecting power and taunt turns all that damage and attack speed back on him. Teemo and Quinn can blind him, negating pretty much his only offensive ability, and anyone with a stun can stun him in the absolute worst position; right next to him and whoever else that has their back. Yi's fragility demands that he kills his enemy fast and get out before he faces retribution; in a war of even slight attrition, he collapses like a house of cards.

A GOOD Master Yi knows his weaknesses, what can kill him, and builds and plays in a way to avoid those situations. Of course, the nature of League means nobody knows these weaknesses, much less what to play or build to negate his strengths, and they'll just complain that literally the whole roster is overpowered, impossible to play against, mindless freelo and never do anything to figure out the enemy's true weaknesses.

Friendly Ram7/17/2016, 2:21:51 AM1 votes

Nope look at everyone's favorite mummy.