@Riot Meddler what is going on with hybrid champions ?

Foucz·11/4/2016, 1:36:56 PM·22 votes·2,398 views

There are like 3 of them that i can call by name jax and akali. Why is that ? The last hybrid champion i could call hybrid is skarner and he was released 5 years ago and he is not even played hybrid at all. Could you explain riot stance on hybrid champions and why there is so little of them ?

59 Comments

Anonagon11/4/2016, 3:16:43 PM10 votes

hybrid champions rarely work out in league because often simply stacking one stat ends up more effective than actually trying to build hybrid

the only champion in the game who is currently truly hybrid is Morde, and that's simply because all his scalings are so absurd that he can choose to build items almost solely for their passives and actives.

Jax is close, but he's really just an AD champion that buys Gunblade if it's stronger than BotRK at the moment, which it is right now. Akali is like an AP Jax - just enough AD scaling to warrant Gunblade being a good purchase, not enough for getting any more AD than Gunblade to be worth it

You could also argue that Kayle is hybrid, but I have a hard time believing "on-hit cheese cancer" is what being hybrid is all about, even if that build ends up giving you a little AD and a little AP

Basically whenever a champion is designed to be hybrid, they normally end up devolving into building full AD or AP plus Gunblade, or being on-hit cheese cancer which isn't fun.

EndlessSorcerer11/4/2016, 2:36:21 PM6 votes

Jax Akali Kayle Evelynn Mordekaiser Udyr

Dolasaur11/4/2016, 9:30:07 PM5 votes

{quoted}

There are like 3 of them that i can call by name jax and akali.

I can't believe no one pointed this out yet...

That's two :(

Malicious Metal11/4/2016, 1:39:28 PM4 votes

Mordekaiser ?

Tattersall11/5/2016, 2:37:13 AM2 votes

Uh… You're forgetting Bard. ######kappa

ThePikol11/4/2016, 1:48:47 PM2 votes

Akali Corki Ezreal Hecarim Irelia Jax Shaco TwistedFate Aren't all these considered hybrid?

Sincarnation11/5/2016, 2:13:45 AM1 votes

Jax Kayle Akali are the only true Hybrids in the game, and as someone said earlier usually they slide into one of the categories getting gunblade and then AD or AP.

Jax genuinue hybrid works with every item though. Ionians, Triforce, Gunblade, Rageblade, Steraks, GA with 10% CDR from Runes gets you plenty of Raw AD AP and AS with 40% CDR

Akali kinda hybrid builds gunblade then AP, but thats more the failure of her class. She is supposed to be an assassin, and generally AP is better than AD for burst.

Kayle mostly hybrid, she can build On-Hit, hybrid, or AP all with her primary focus with AS. Ionians/Zerks/Sorcs, Nashers, Rageblade, Rylais, Hurricane, Void Staff.

Current hybrid itemization favors drawn out fights, so as an assassin it just doesnt favor Akali.

TwinkiePro11/5/2016, 7:51:09 AM1 votes

I'm waiting for a champs who's passive swaps AD and AP. 1000 AP makes autos do 1k :-)

Gregor Gysi11/5/2016, 10:41:54 AM1 votes

What do you even consider hybrid?

BloodyTompon11/5/2016, 10:57:23 AM1 votes

TL:DR: They end up being better as either AD or AP.

I'll copy an earlier red post. Sauce: http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/g1iaAREd-xyph-hybrid-itemization-question?comment=0001

To me, that is where the flaw existed in hybrid itemization design. I don't think any special consideration should be given to these items just for being hybrid. The catch should be that they are good only if you can actually use all of the stats on them, but if not then you should be shooting yourself in the foot because the item should not be efficient for those champions.

If they're not better than other items - why would you buy them as a hybrid? Because they exist? Furthermore - if this item is good on you and not particularly efficient - what does that say about your AD or AP ratios and your ability to use other items? We could easily make a 1800 gold item that gave 40 AP and 25 AD. For this item to be equivalent to 80 AP or 50 AD - your AP and AD ratios have to be equal to other character's high AD and AP ratios innately. Which means that you scale equally well with this item as any other item - regardless of whether it had AD or AP. Which then boils down to - why do you purchase the hybrid item to begin with? In what way is it stronger than others? Because if it provides you a non-stat but still a damage spike - it is guaranteed that you will be balanced around said spike and the same damage effects would occur. You can sidestep this dilemma by stating that hybrid champions would buy this to get access to some other form of utility or sideways benefit that the other items don't provide. However, in this world - hybrid champions can already use literally every item in the game outside of penetration items well. Penetration items don't carry a ton of utility - due to their natural advantage of murdering squishy targets. Penetration is also a form of damage spike which I'll address later. Going back to this hybrid item existing as a form of utility - They can already pick and choose the best actives and passives out of the categories - so then it wraps straight back to - why does this need to exist? Why isn't the strength of a hybrid champion already the ability to pick the best items in every conceivable category and use them well? Compound this with the damage efficiency curves - You'll want to also have a look at the multiplicative items in AD and AP. AD has Crit, AS and Lifesteal - as well as other neat things like Hydra. AP has Deathcap as well as other items with AP Ratios on them. Therefore - what you'll tend to see is that, because other paths have delayed multiplicative synergies to them - that usually going straight down AD or AP will be highly preferable to getting a mix of the two statistics - due to the multiplicative power of other items in their ecosystem. The real crux of this problem comes down to the fact that skills have linear - rather than exponential ratios. Thus - unless the hybrid item is primarily utility centric - it's not going to have a strong place in either of these builds - because a build full of hybrids with no late multipliers is going to suck - that's not even getting into the problem of defending against hybrid champions innately sucks in the mid-game. You could try to solve this by giving all hybrid characters scaling AD or AP ratios - but again - that lowers their midgame and early-game power spike potential dramatically as in the current case.

In the late game, tanks are likely to have ~130 magic resist and ~180 armor (at least, I always tend to have more armor than MR). At that point, hybrid itemization isn't as useful because you have no way to effectively cut through the resistance of your opponent.

This heavily presumes that the role of hybrid is to be able to cleanup and sweep through teams. This assumes that hybrid characters end up as carry classes - rather than either Assassin or Utility classes. But let's brush that aside, while it is true that your damage potential falls off - you ignore the fact that you've been incredibly hard to itemize up till now - as all your opponent's purchases have had half effect on lowering your damage thus far. Then you introduce guaranteed late game damage for these characters - opponents' itemization options will be inefficient in the early, middle or late game. Since you are most likely guaranteed a late game and early purchases have minimal effects - I'm not sure what the effects that would have - but I would assume that you're either going to keep a poor late game - or your mid-game will have to be nerfed to compensate for the fact that you'll never really fall off in the damage curve. (Which then brings you back to exactly the same outcome as introducing a high spike item and lowered ratios would do.) Edit: Note that there is actually a fairly reasonable answer to the 'why should hybrid characters get a special utility that is only good on them' than other characters - if their kits are so constrained that they need a specific hybrid utility function to be able to function. This becomes simply a analogue to the damage case - just in utility.

WinTheWarOnPants11/4/2016, 5:22:43 PM1 votes

Evelynn Fizz Ezreal Akali Katarina Kayle Kennen Shyvana Teemo XinZhao Jax Mordekaiser Blitzcrank these are all the hybrids i could think of.

Jugganott7411/4/2016, 6:19:40 PM1 votes

Aatrox Akali Blitzcrank Corki Ekko Evelynn Ezreal Gnar Jax Jayce Katarina Kayle Khazix Lucian MasterYi MissFortune Mordekaiser Nunu Pantheon Shen Sion Sivir Skarner Taric Teemo Thresh Tristana Trundle TwistedFate Udyr Urgot Warwick XinZhao Yorick

Can all go hybrid now, you know why? Because riot realized if they broadened the item pool you can make any champion that scales off both viable hybrid. If you don't believe me, add me and let's 1v1, I'll play as any of them and I'll build hybrid.

MunchCrunchLunch11/4/2016, 10:20:44 PM1 votes

hybrid champions are ones that use ap and ad effectively. its not about ad/ap scaling on a nonsesne ability

  1. Jax Akali Ezreal KogMaw Mordekaiser are true hybrids
The Yetii Rider11/4/2016, 11:35:16 PM1 votes

Kayle MissFortune Corki Ezreal Katarina Nidalee Shaco all have a pretty good mix of AP and AD ratios (except Kayle, but her reliance on auto attacks makes her a good hybrid champ anyway).

Teridax6811/5/2016, 1:07:44 AM1 votes

I think Kayle likely qualifies as hybrid too, but the bigger picture is that hybrid champions are a design problem Riot hasn't solved yet. The idea behind "true" hybrid champions, like Jax or Akali as you mentioned, and originally Ezreal and Corki too, is that they were intended to build both AD and AP at the same time so that their abilities and attacks would be equally effective. This was at a time when the model for AD and AP was a lot simpler, in that AD was basically just for autoattack damage and AP for ability damage. Currently, though, abilities have many more AD scalings, and AP autoattackers have their own methods of scaling with AP, so hybrid itemization no longer serves that purpose.

Right now, there basically isn't a real reason to design champions specifically to be hybrid, and hybrid champions also tend to be more difficult to balance, since they can use more items, so Riot hasn't been designing true hybrids in a long time. There are also a lot of other reasons why hybrid can't really work right now: multiplicative stats like crit, penetration, etc. mean that itemization rewards specialization into either AD or AP, which also means going hybrid tends to lead to mediocre results, and hybrid AD/AP items tend to be far too niche, while also failing to appeal to hybrid champions as a whole. The only real potential reason to have a hybrid champion is if their AD and AP playstyles were radically different and each offered something new, but that in itself is extremely difficult to implement in practice.