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Why is it acceptable for a class to be defined by items, right clicking and not their abilities

TeCoolMage·3/19/2018, 3:46:38 PM·4 votes·377 views

This is just my opinion, please don't downvote simply because you're anonymous and want assert your power over posters who put time and effort into their posts, thanks. Downvotes are for quality, not agreeing/disagreeing.

Champ A: dash that gives some auto damage, three hit passive that gives true damage End result: majority of damage is from unmodified IE Shiv crits. On modified autos, majority of damage is still from the non ability portion.

Champ B: can gain bonus AS, AOE on autos, can shoot long range skillshot projectiles End result: majority of damage is from unmodified IE shiv crits. On modified autos, majority of damage is still from the non ability portion.

Champ C: can turn invisible, can do extra damage based on amount of previous autos, has DoT on autos, can ult for huge damage AAs in an AOE for a short period of time End result: majority of damage is from modified IE Shiv autos... because when you find an opening to auto no reason not to use ult. Still, most of the damage is from the non ability portion of the auto.

Champ D: can put down traps and auto enemies who step on them, can dash backwards and auto an enemy, has a point and click long range damage ability. End result: majority of damage is from trap and dash IE Shiv autos, but this only works because there are a ton of traps to step on. Probably best of the four in terms of the idea behind it but autos+huge damage modifier is cancer in practice.

Why is it that it's perfectly fine that these champs feel about as different as the two forms Kayn can turn into instead of being distinct?

If auto attacks inherently had counterplay (dodge them) maybe this would work, but instead there's no counterplay to them. So the skill expression of these ADCs aren't "oh can I outplay the enemy by playing mind games, or predict their movement", it's "can I do this skill that is completely unrelated to enemy input like animation cancelling, orb walking, and comboing?"

For example: A Thresh play would be to throw lantern, flash (not dependent on enemy input), throw hook and hit an enemy (outplay enemy). I'd think "Wow this Thresh is a god he has such good mechanics and can predict enemy jukes!" "He's really good at hitting his skillshots"

A Vayne play would be to ult, flash E (not dependent on enemy input), auto (not dependent on enemy input), tumble out of their skillshot (negate enemy play), QSSing their stun instantly (negate enemy play), auto (not dependent on enemy input). I'd think "Wow this Vayne is a god she has such good mechanics!" "Rip enemy"

Removing counterplay (reacting) != counterplaying counterplay (predicting). Both make for flashy plays and impress, but only one has a chance to make the enemy say "wp". Though the community rages either way 99% of the time so it can be confusing

Since their main damage tools have no inherent counterplay and are mostly from items, their kits are all about three things:

  • Adding more counterplay vs other champions, even though other champions tend to already have counterplay (mobility and intargetability to dodge skillshots that you can dodge as an immobile champion anyway)
  • Adding more damage or gimmicks to their autos, but this has to be done scarcely because the damage from the inherent 100% tAD with 1% chance to crit per 1% crit chance (200% damage, modified by crit damage items) is already huge.
  • Adding more ways to apply their no-counterplay damage. Like abilities that apply on hits/can crit, range on autos, engage tools

There's no space for things like backloading damage into Twitch contaminate (270+150% bonus AD on max stacks? That's barely a Shiv IE SINGLE crit, much less six IE crits.). For things like utility/cc it takes a back seat (Ashe has 2/3 damage and 3/3 CC while Lissandra has 3/3 damage and 3/3 CC... yeah right.) when you compare it to other classes. You can't have a Taric who's a tank but can also heal/shield/protect huge amounts, or Morgana who can catch enemies out but has an enchanter CC immunity shield, because the fact ADCs like ADC items and make better use of autos takes up most of their power budget so they only have about as much variation as those "fruit infused bottled water" drinks which all taste like slightly sour tap water.

The worst part is, things like Lethality Varus/MF, Caitlyn, and Ezreal are all cancer compared to skillshot/trap based mages or useless because they need to be overturned to compete with other marksmen like Vayne/Twitch. Then you got champs like Jhin who are breaths of fresh air because you can disengage on third shot and leave them in tears posting 4 memes on the boards. Then there's Kai'sa who's pretty unique but needs literal anti synergy with her autos in her E to make room for a cool kit.

I mean, when you got a champ that applies all their damage in one ability (COUGH ZOE CHOKE) they end up being extremely annoying. Now imagine if it were point and click and your other abilities were stuff like "empower your next (single ability), reset its cooldown" or parry/windwall/playful trickster.

There are four abilities and an innate passive in a kit, differing for each champ, each can have different ways of being counterplayed. There is one point and click auto, all champions have access to it (though stuff like Jhin passive can mix things up), and it has no inherent counterplay (unless you're graves lul don't ever dive someone who's hugging an enemy tower/tank unless all it takes to kill is QR).

TLDR; Why are marksmen defined by the fact they work well with ADC items that strengthen their no-counterplay autos? Why is such a huge part of their power budget taken by the fact they're ranged AS-crit-AD-onhit champions rather than what their passive, Q, W, E and R do like literally any other champion in the game?

19 Comments

Kanzler3/19/2018, 5:16:48 PM3 votes

Tl;dr but just downvoted for another circle jerk thread about adc.

Cowgirl Ed3/19/2018, 4:11:20 PM2 votes

because marksmen are a big mistake, riot should learn how to balance them also gut vayne

ViciousSummoner3/19/2018, 4:20:08 PM2 votes

If AD's were turned into ability based champions we'd have 50 different hyper mobile Lucian's.

chipndip13/19/2018, 4:27:00 PM2 votes

Because it'd take a long time to reassess EVERY MARKSMAN to be more like Jhin and Kai'Sa, even if they should be more like Jhin and Kai'Sa.

Sp33d Zer03/19/2018, 3:49:59 PM2 votes

Becauase if they were ability based they wouldnt be played in a duo lane because ability levels would be too important. They would be forced into another lane.

DuzzieRes3/20/2018, 12:10:34 AM2 votes

Marksmen are generally High Damage with little to no defense. They do rely heavily on their basic attacks, but if we made them focus on abilities and lower their basic attack damage, then they would be similar to other AD champions except they have range. Not to mention, there are also items that counter AD champions such as Randuins, Thornmail and Frozen Heart. They build armor, lower crit damage, slow attack speed and reflects damage and lowers healing.

Also while saying there isn't a way to outplay basic attacks, the ADCs are all squishy. Meaning that it won't matter how many basic attacks they can get off if an assassin could burst them in matter of seconds. Tanks can absorb their damage and smart players know who to focus first. A player who picks ADC also has to be smart and know when to engage/not engage, don't over extend, cs and when to trade without dying over and over. That's what separates a good adc from a bad adc.

As for their items and roles they can fill, Riot has said that they want to include melee champions as ADCs and want more champions to play in bot lane besides just marksmen. But I understand what you mean. We could use a bit more marksmen filling different roles like support, tanks or mages. And they have done that with Ezreal since he is ability reliant and Corki who has AP damaging abilties and champions like Kayle and Twisted Fate can be considered AP carries since they can build nashors tooth and act as one. The only issue would be balancing. It would difficult and kind of op if you had a marksman tank who could deal and absorb damage. And we can use a bit more ADC item variety since most take the same thing. Either crit or Self sustain with blade of the ruined king as their first with only a few exceptions like Varus and Kogmaw getting Rageblade

JackMcSnipeyz3/20/2018, 8:44:11 AM1 votes

Marksmen are defined by their kits. Just because their main source of damage are auto attacks doesnt mean they are defined by right clicking, or else you'd see cait in every game. Ashe is defined by her CC and utility, her slow and Ult are defining how she plays or why you pick her. Twitch is defined by his ult powerspike and stealth, his kit defines how he plays and applies his auto attacks. Vayne is a single target tank bustet duelist, her kit defines how she plays and why you pick her.

This broad statement is the reason you get downvoted, not every adc can be a Jhin or a Graves, adc kits define their playstyle and situation where they work best.

Verxint3/19/2018, 5:24:44 PM1 votes

This is actually why the ADC meta has always been a holy trinity. Because their kit differences end up secondary to raw item stats