If you teach players that Team Builder is bad, no one will use it when you fix it

MXXIV·2/3/2015, 4:25:50 PM·58 votes·7,639 views

Did you try Internet Explorer any time recently? I doubt it. As a web developer I occasionally test sites in all browsers. IE has improved significantly and no longer suffers from grave deviations from the specification. I rarely see something rendered different than other browsers. But nobody uses it.

usage of web browsers graph

What does it tell us in general? If it has been now hour and half I've been trying to join a team builder game as a solo top fighter (Tryndamere ), even though I got never kicked and I never left, I'll stop using this matching algorithm.

And others will stop too. And the less players use it, the more it sucks. Look at the graph again. The blue line. That's you.

But why am I posting it when blind queue takes 30 seconds on average? It's because I really support the team-builder idea. I'm tired of people arguing who said mid first. I'm tired of instalockers. Team builder is the right way in my opinion. But it must be completed to work.

Both matching and starting speed could be improved significantly with little effort. I'm not sure if all these ideas were posted, so please forgive any repetitive ones:

  1. Allow user to pick multiple roles before queuing. First role than will be assigned.
  2. Similarly, captains should be allowed to make patterns for roles. Such as tank/bruiser on top. Assasin/tank/buiser jungle.
  3. I take this back. - Enable to report player who is "trolling" by picking invalid role/lane for their champion. Captains often do not kick these players because they don't want to wait another 30 minutes.
  4. Dodging blind games renders you a penalty. That's for a reason! So similarly, introduce a limit for "Find another group". In ARAM, you also only have 2 rerolls. While the penalty shouldn't be as grave, there should be one for repetitive cancelling/leaving as it does harm gaming experience of others.

The last point is the most important. You can't never get totally ideal team. But apparently, many players don't hesitate to leave once they're in. And that causes more leaving until captain gives up and disbands the rest.

It's true that as a support I had no problems. But playing as support with strangers is not fun. All you get are insults, "u ks" hatespech when you accidentally hit somebody (unfortunately, that's the only Sona's flaw).

If you can't secure that the games start in 20 minutes top, withdraw the teambuilder and then announce a big remake when it's fixed. People will try it again and find it's better. But the deeper disappointment you build in them, the harder will be the comeback.

###More suggestions from bellow:

  1. Allow 2 or 3 premade players to search for group. This will allow Support+ADC pairs and will speed up everything significantly - Originally posted by Mikal Pikal

  2. I had an additional idea of IP rewarding players that pick the needed roles. ip rewards for roles in team builder

  3. People make some good points against my 3. and 4. - read here and here

  4. Indicate lack of captains/solo players and motivate players to switch other way around. I made this image as an idea: ##As captain: image description ##As soloist: image description
    Originally posted by Rainbowgasm.

71 Comments

SmokingPuffin2/3/2015, 4:41:52 PM13 votes

It's true that as a support I had no problems. But playing as support with strangers is not fun. All you get are insults, "u ks" hatespech when you accidentally hit somebody (unfortunately, that's the only Sona's flaw).

If you can't secure that the games start in 20 minutes top, withdraw the teambuilder and then announce a big remake when it's fixed. People will try it again and find it's better. But the deeper disappointment you build in them, the harder will be the comeback.

This right here is the core problem. Support players have near zero incentive to play team builder. They can get support whenever they want in blind pick with 30 second queues. The result is that the system is always waiting for supports and has an ocean of solo lane players.

It's a classic problem, copied straight from WoW dungeon finder.

Mikal Pikal2/3/2015, 5:56:55 PM9 votes

I usually don't have too much of a problem queueing for team builder solo, even with mid and top. Sure it often takes longer than draft or blind pick, but I get my role. My problem, and the reason I don't use TB that often, is when I am queueing with another person. We cannot search for an open game with 2 spots, we are forced to start a new team. Therefore, unless one or both of us takes support/jungle, it will take forever to find a game.

If there was one change I'd ask for is to allow a duo to search for an already created game.

Izbiz2/3/2015, 5:49:14 PM9 votes

{quoted}

  • Allow user to pick multiple roles before queuing. First role than will be assigned.
  • Similarly, captains should be allowed to make patterns for roles. Such as tank/bruiser on top. Assasin/tank/buiser jungle.
  • Enable to report player who is "trolling" by picking invalid role/lane for their champion. Captains often do not kick these players because they don't want to wait another 30 minutes.
  • Dodging blind games renders you a penalty. That's for a reason! So similarly, introduce a limit for "Find another group". In ARAM, you also only have 2 rerolls. While the penalty shouldn't be as grave, there should be one for repetitive cancelling/leaving as it does harm gaming experience of others.
  • Agreed
  • Agreed
  • Disagree. picking off-meta champs is kinda the point of Team Builder.
  • 100% disagree. People joining a team and not liking the team have just as many rights to leave as the host kicking out someone. The point of Team Builder is to get YOUR ideal team, not just start a game.

Additionally, they don't need 3 different queues for normals. They need to get ride of blind pick if they hope to have success in Team Builder.

  • Teambuilder for casual
  • Draft for practicing for ranked
Xx420n0sc0p3sxX2/3/2015, 6:03:06 PM6 votes

Firefox master-race! Not relevant? But really, I can't agree with all of your ideas but yea your right, people won't use it if they know it's bad, even when it gets better.

xJLx MCHammer2/3/2015, 4:35:01 PM4 votes

I don't use team builder

It sacrifices balanced match making for quick que. Games are never clos Either I go 10-2 in lane or 0-10 Either my team stomps or we get stomped It's always high ranked vs low ranked

It's so bad. My win rate plummeted to 20% playing it over 120 games.

F u team builder

Rainbowgasm2/3/2015, 10:12:26 PM3 votes

The problem I have with rewarding people more IP for playing the most in demand roles is that... I have over 50 000 that I'm not spending, many people have more. A lot of people will continue to crowd the middle lane and top since there is no reason to care about IP.

One thing I would like to see is some sort of indicator that there are either too many, or not enough captains. That might speed queues up a bit if players aren't being held up by a bad host to guest ratio.

The Queen Viper2/3/2015, 7:09:35 PM2 votes

There's a simple solution to reduce the queue times: Delete "blind pick"... there, done.

PapaShongo532/3/2015, 4:43:02 PM2 votes

I agree with you 100%

When team builder was first released I loved the idea. At first it was great, only a few minutes to get a game going.

I haven't played it in a long time, I try to use it every once in awhile but the que times are so ridiculous that I'd rather play the call position and insta lock game in blind.

Raptamei2/3/2015, 5:13:39 PM2 votes

[deleted]

Raptamei2/3/2015, 5:25:58 PM2 votes

{quoted}

Did you try Internet Explorer any time recently? I doubt it. As a web developer I occasionally test sites in all browsers. IE has improved significantly and no longer suffers from grave deviations from the specification. I rarely see something rendered different than other browsers. But nobody uses it.

usage of web browsers graph

The answer is in the other line - mobile usage. Chrome is dominant on mobile devices while WP8 and RT are sad jokes. People don't switch from IE, they switch from their legacy desktop to tablets and phones. I was stuck with WP8 for 2 weeks and mobile IE11 was such depressing shit that I got rid of it asap. Pulls up desktop sites instead of mobile sites, doesn't care about webkit standards, etc.

The other answer is that MS orphaned Windows XP and told people to get another browser and fuck themselves.

Drunk Rummate2/3/2015, 6:28:26 PM2 votes

I disagree with a ton of your statements. What you think would be improvements I believe would be huge steps backwards. Limiting a person's ability to "find another group" would get them stuck on a team they don't like, which is entirely against a primary purpose for team builder to begin with.

Similarly, reporting people for 'trolling' with a champion position is an easy way to limit diversity and/or fun comps. And where better to try these than in team builder?

I do agree that there are ways we can improve queue times, but I'm not sure I agree with any of your suggestions. I would much prefer incentives, or at least suggestions to play 'needed' roles. For example: If team builder could keep a tally of roles that are currently heavily searched for (hint: support/jungle) and then promise 50 extra IP at the end of that game for filling the role, that would seriously improve the queue times.

I do think allowing and requesting for multiple roles should be allowed. Especially in edge cases - not sure why Leona is listed as a tank when people clearly want her in bottom, but if you choose "Support" for bottom and Leona picks "Tank" then it will never find her.

Vesarixx2/3/2015, 8:07:13 PM2 votes

Iève been suggesting a fill option for team builder for a while now, would really help queue times.

Guy Fox Teemo2/3/2015, 11:43:59 PM2 votes

Great Idea, though im EXTREMLLY against 3. And sorta 4. The 3rd one just ENFORCES the meta and Riot most certainly does not want to do that. The entire point they made teambuilder is so you could play what you wanted when you wanted. (And to sorta help the insta locking and trolling in blind pick).

The 4th one kinda FORCES you to play a certain comp. If the captain wanted to do all 5 mid and got 3 other players to do it. Obviously MOST people wouldn't want to do it and would leave. Teambuilers suppose to let you play what you want, and how you want it. Though you could be a captain, for some people that takes to long.

I for one suggest they COMPLETELY remove blind pick. This would significantly reduce the wait times in teambuilder and obviously you'd get to play the role you want and what team comp if you were a captain. I only ever play blind pick if im bored and want to play a quick game and not have to wait a 3min queue to get into a team or 10mins to make a team as a captain. If blind pick was removed Teambuilder would have much shorter waittimes as everyone would be using it, when they do normals. (Besides normal Draft pick which I find almost pointless in my opinion). I see no reason in keeping blind pick as most of the time its just a place for trolls and insta lockers.

indomitable12/5/2015, 4:46:00 AM2 votes

The problem with Teambuilder is they built it as if it supposed to be a practice mode that is different then ranked, when really what they needed was not a separate mode but was to take some of these ideas and make the ranked matching better. The way the pick and ban phase works even in the LCS is not all that great in the first place. It should be more like first you pick the champions then the enemy has a chance to ban and make you switch to a backup.

Killer X 122/4/2015, 5:51:36 PM1 votes

Its kinda sad. I play TB when i'm trying now new champs because i know that dumb adjustment thing will put me against scrubs. Its nice for me, but i know i just made another person who'll complain about how bad the match making is.

Edit: Of course sometimes i play champs i have a lot of games with in TB, just to make sure i get the role...but thats what its for lol

Raptamei2/5/2015, 4:25:58 PM1 votes

How about when you join, you can only leave or start the game after 30 seconds?

This stops people from instantly leaving instead of waiting for the last guy to join 10 sec later.

2pudge1cup2/3/2015, 9:15:08 PM1 votes

I don't like #3... The whole "report for trolling" thing is very very dicey. I mean I'm sure everyone has that champ role that's outside of the norm that they play well. If a captain can report them for said slot then before the game even starts and then they get locked out of team builder you'll get less people even playing. There's just way too much gray area with what constitutes a troll pick and what can be justified.

The rest of the suggestions are okay. There definitely needs to be a multiple option deal (and if someone wants to play 1 thing they can just not pick other options).

Unlimited Gin2/5/2015, 4:03:47 PM1 votes

Great ideas. I love Team Builder, honestly, but then again, I duo with a buddy and I'm usually support. It did always surprise me how easy it is for supports to soloqueue and bail when they see a team. It happens too much, and the penalty needs to be harder.

I've had a better experience supporting with strangers, but yeah, every once in a while, you get Charles Manson as your ADC and then your life goes down the toilet for 20 minutes.

Still.... I'm not switching to Explorer.