But let's remove it from Runic Echoes anyway and give them a shitty +300 mana instead. Oh, and CDR too, as if CDR hasn't already become enough of a generally available stat. (Seriously, remember when you had to actually itemise for that shit? Now it's literally on anything and everything).
Don't forget giving zac ap scaling and then making runic echos trash on him. Don't forget Diana and Gragas, literally every single ap jungler would rather have taken the movespeed. At this point the only conclusion we can take is that Riot doesn't want AP junglers to exist and is actively trying to sabotage them to stop playing the game.
i dont dislike the 10% cdr, but i wish we kept the 7% movement speed instead of the mana.
also.. none of this matters as long as the jungle exp changes are in place because until they are revered all AP junglers are fucked anyways because we cant dual at lvl 2 because we have no base ap
Runic echoes has been and continues to be the least gold efficient jungle item, hence why even when i was a jg main I never played ap junglers who built it.
Runic Echoes was pretty "meh" last patch and it's even worse this patch.
You might as well forget about completing Runic Echoes and rush build 
instead which is only 2400g yet gives better stats than Runic Echoes did last patch: 70AP, 10% CDR, 7% movement speed, + Twin Shadows passive for vision control and catch potential... AND it has a better build path IMO.
Revert runic and make it 80 AP ffs. The reason there is so little AP junglers is because 60 AP is shit compared to 60 AD and they lack base damage.
Low key, movement speed is the strongest jungle stat.
Alright more crying over nothing. Ill take the cdr over the movement speed. I play ivern and i would rather have the cdr.
btw just cus cdr is easy to get for laners doesnt mean it's available on these champs, if you look at their most used builds they dont actually build a lot of cdr :/ new cdr is pretty great
Give me magic pen. Universally useful on all mages. CDR/Mana/movespeed are all conditionally useful but I cannot think of a mages that doesn't want magic pen. Especially because of how few items actually give the stat.
Between the EXP change and this they might as well just delete Evelynn. No clue what Riot is smoking. They're just making so many unnecessary changes that no one asked for. Being able to get extra movespeed was one of the very few upsides of picking an AP jungle (they're already weak as-is). Giving them 300 mana when they don't NEED 300 mana (already get mana from Runic Echoes / blue buff) is just silly.
is not played in jungle as much as those you listed the movespeed helped rumble as well.
While the ms was nice on runic, i do prefer the cdr on eve, cause now i can nuke people faster.
I just want Evelynn to have on-hit and AD synergies again
Give E's non % health damage AD scaling and have the normal version apply two on-hits and the empowered deal three. Split the damage accordingly among each hit.
And give her increased movement speed toward monsters marked by her W I suppose, to improve her pathing closer to pre rework.
"Generally available stat".
Junglers shouldn't be thinking about a six item build. They care about the early game these days. Having the CDR available as early as 900 gold if you want it without delaying your first item purchase is very useful to AP junglers.
They were discussing possibly putting the movespeed back I believe. Also to be fair about CDR, mid laners kinda do still have to itemize for it. It's not on every AP item and the ones it is on usually aren't built together. Unless you have like seraph's, luden's, banshee's, zhonya's, you're not gonna get CDR on a most AP champions. Of course there's also protobelt and lich bane, but not many champions build lich bane and I don't think many protobelt builders buy ludens.
Yeah, but when CDR wasn't generally available, we had only one build path because we needed the CDR. It's a necessary stat and by having it on multiple items we can have more build diversity.
This change was really good for 
. She needs CDR more than any other stat and now she can finish the jungle item without sacrificing CDR early
I won't say I think the changes are great for the current iteration of the jungle but I like the design space that it provides. By making Runic Echoes worse on the AP champions who already can jungle it gives more room to buff the item such that the amount of viable AP junglers can be expanded upon in the future and the current jungle pool can get buffed so that we could potentially see the current AP junglers in lanes again (since let's be real, most AP junglers just jungle because they can't lane to save their lives).
As someone who's played a lot of off-meta AP champions in the past, making Echoes build off of Lost Chapter by itself is an improvement because you don't have to choose between early game mana and early game item powerspike, but the currently viable AP junglers are tuned such that they don't need mana the same way that off-meta AP champions do.
Of course, in the current iteration of the jungle the change does nothing because you can't function in the jungle if you can't duel, and that's exactly what most AP junglers can't do (whether you're talking meta or not), although this isn't the fault of Runic Echoes but because of other stupid changes that happened to the jungle.
I think what a lot of people forget is in season 5-7 our only souces of movement speed were in runes (none of the AP jgs took quints of MS), and that wanderer mastery (which gave 3% MS at rank 5). Runic echoes added to this in season 6-7.
In season 8 we have: Relentless hunter (8-48 free MS) Celerity (3%), Waterwalking (25 in river), and in Elise's case we got our 5 MS back, and then we have items which may or may never be used that give MS (shuralyas, twin, spellbinder).
Personally I prefer my 5 MS in general back on Elise and we do have a lot of speed in the game at the moment. The all or nothing mobis meta got stale for me.
I think they should atleast give 5 MS to nid, eve, and diana. Maybe even replace the sapphire crystal with an amp tome entirely.
It's okay. Nidalee, Evelynn and Elise are usually targeted by riot to be nerfed either directly or indirectly. If they have higher than 49% winrate, Riot has a problem with it.
