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As A Marksman Main...

Familiar Faces·6/22/2018, 7:31:29 PM·19 votes·12,181 views

As a Marksman main and an avid LCS watcher I believe that there is only one thing that needs fixing with the meta........ ..... ........ ............. ................

Gold funneling strats. This soft handed nerf champs popularly associated to the strat band-aid is a game of wack-a-mole. What Riot needs are heavy handed cross the board general nerfs. And to my mind the nerfs necessary should be experience related.

Soo.., with that in mind here are some ideas which I think could ALL be done in tandem without breaking the game:

  1. Non-buff Monsters have takedown exp sharing. This is so that the champion that the gold is being funneled onto pays a shared battle exp price for sharing...., the experience of the battle (of the jungle camp). This is thematically fair without affecting buff leashes.

  2. Here I'll list two alternatives one only of which should be additionally necessary: Either A) _ Rework minion exp sharing so that instead of minion exp being shared equally by nearby champions.., that the exp favors the lower leveled champions._ For Example say including the bonus exp that sharing a lane gives, we call the total EXP 100%. This 100% is shared equally currently. Instead maybe 80% should be shared equally while 20% goes directly to the lower leveled champion. This will also affect duo lanes where the support roams. Overall this slightly encourages more inter-lane interaction. OR B) Rework Jungle items to still give bonus exp from jungle monsters but in return.., penalized exp (or shared exp) from lane minion. SO in another example if the total experience share a champion with a jungle item gets from minions is 100% then instead they get 80%. I was even thinking so far as this penalized exp from minions can be the case for only the base/starter jungle items and when they are merged into the coloured smite.., that penalty is removed. The reason is to ensure that this penalty to exp from lane minions doesn't affect all game, just only the early parts of the game where this strat is cheesiest. Teams from mid game could benefit from split push junglers without the additional penalty, only the arguable strategic cost.

The combination of these ideas will not affect solo jungling exp. They will not affect the gold generation. But they will delay the level spikes enough to give solo jungling + solo laning superior experience efficiency. And since levels have a stronger value early game than gold (or items) this allows the gold funneling strat to generate gold faster but not tempo from out-leveling the map while roaming and being able to brute-force win engages from from the non-interactive PVE style start.

45 Comments

Just Jangle6/22/2018, 8:56:08 PM7 votes

Screw marksmans, im happy they are not meta anymore.

SmashinBob6/23/2018, 4:55:00 PM6 votes

As a marksman main you should be aware that you are playing a gold funneling strat every time you play your role.

Aptest6/23/2018, 5:56:19 AM5 votes

I do not see that there is a problem. Rather, I think that "Chinese boosting strategy" is a net positive for the game. Instead of one optimal way of playing that everybody plays, there are two options. And your strategy of response must vary.

Fluffeh6/22/2018, 10:18:06 PM5 votes

As a.....

Forum....

User.......

...........

So many periods is unnecessary..........................

Śhunpo6/23/2018, 7:07:14 AM4 votes

I mean....I won't lie that gold funneling is certainly a problem, but crit. ADCs were downright disgusting before 8.11 hit.

SwiftKitten886/23/2018, 4:00:04 PM3 votes

u know... as a "marksman" i dont think you should be the one to complain about "gold funneling strats"

seeing as you have supports like us who's entire purpose is to funnel you gold..... just saying...

Temptist6/22/2018, 9:44:08 PM2 votes

Agreed with Ariel The Cruel. I like it how it is.

FirewaterDM6/23/2018, 5:29:35 AM2 votes

TBH not sure how to fix besides gutting yi + fucking all junglers, not just the ones at fault for the funneling strat. Like your ideas are good but they'll actually make junglers walking wards IF they fall behind/get counterjungled- like you already if done well you can be 2+ levels on the opponent IF you're 1/1/4 versus 0/0/2 if you're up 4-5 camps/got all the scuttlers- I just see this level change leading to behind junglers losing all of their camps + unable to even passively keep up in levels via random unattended lane farm. could make jungle meta even more static/boring.

But fully agree in terms of the rest of this meta isn't terrible.

Ariel the Cruel6/22/2018, 9:29:53 PM2 votes

RiP, Dawngate. Their system may not have been perfect, but it was a massive step towards fixing income disparity.

Familiar Faces6/23/2018, 1:26:06 PM2 votes

Ok, lol.

IN response to the '....' thing: I'm sorry I am not an avid forum user anymore and I kinda liked the dots thing. I refer the faded line separator thing and once i figure out how to do it.., i'll be doing it.

IN response to Marksman related comments: I personally believe Marksmen are in a terrific place for their intended purpose. And they are builds that circumvent the lowered spikes from the crit items rework. I main Tristana, Ashe, Vayne and Twitch. And Even prior to this patch with the slight buffs to trist an twitch I found that they were in a good place. Protect Comps have low key been meta so long that anything that spikes from bot lane earlier feels like chaos. The Only issue I have with Marksman is the game needs a 20% crit item. But 'm not even sure how I'd fit in in my builds as they are already complete. The long story of this meta is that rushinng crit early is sub-par unless your champion has built in crit mechanics. Not necessarily that crit is bad, only that it's good after the 1st major item. And as a sneak preview.., BT into crit into IE is still a thing. Infact it actually helps deal with the increased threat adcs are seeing. ADCs are in a fine place, they just don't spike as early and that's fair..., If as an adc main I'm ahead of the curve early.., my comp becomes a protect comp from whatever it was before and we just maul. For the lessened risk of increased range and consistent damage it's fair to have a lowered early damage payoff.

In response to funneling being simply a meta change: Before it was widely published on youtube etc, a friend and I tried it out a bit. It's strong but from the nunu/Taric side it's boring and you don't feel impactful. You actually feel alot like you're the hyper carry's * * *ch. Meanwhile on the hypercarry you feel no threat. Everything becomes essentially risk free. Counterjungling, skirmishes, farming mid, you always feel like you're superior in levels or items enough to take whatever fight you wish. The only thing you actually die from is your own cockiness. Like I played with bad ones, played as the strat both sides of the coin, played vs bad users of the strat as well as good users of the strat..., and I believe it's too OP. Extreme level advantages should be earned, not farmed. And that's the core of the issue to me, dealing with the superior lvling..., you really can't. A counter is hard shoving but tbh.., you can't hard shove to tower before the jungler clears 2 camps on the vast majority of champions. And Hard shoving serves to preserve your minions so that they end up receiving more of your minions alive and thus more exp. As pointed out by a marksman related post.., this means that the game tempo and thus outcome aren't dictated by any lane doing decent. A 2/0 adc will be as impactful as a 0/2 adc vs 0/0 hypercarry of this strat from sheer farm and level difference. Literally when every other champion of the game is in early-early-mid game strength, the funneled carry is at a solid mid-game when not fed..., I'm not ok with this and I don't want to have to absolutely stomp a lane just to stand a chance vs the mess gong on. All the exp penalties do is restrict the exp boosts of funnelers. If they want exp funnelinng on top of their gold funneling, they need to invest the funneled gold into removing the exp penalty.

In response to exp tampering: This is already a strategy riot uses. Jungling items already give bonus exp from monsters. What this is equivalent to is non-junglers get a penalty on a true total exp. I'm not re-inventing the wheel only reverse -engineering it. The exp lock-out is basically until 1st back and purchase since my preferred idea actually removes the lane minion exp penalty when a jungler completes the colored smite. Krugs are too much of a pain now to take so i do not anticipate the return of the bot lane krug starts ESPECIALLY since 1st krug clear has a deliberate exp penalty. And Krugs/Gromp spawn deliberately last. The cost on botlane taking them for themselves especially in a meta where being already 3/4 hp at lvl 2 may mean death and being snowballed on..., I could b wrong i guess but i sincerely doubt.

In response to buff tankiness/damage of jungle mobs vs non-junglers: I am not in support. Any change to damage dealt and taken by all mobs across the board will heavily affect the efficiency and validity of leashes which in turn will heavily shift the amount of champions viable in the jungle. That's why i specifically exempted buff leashes. Even non-buff camps.., are a arguable to adjust damage dealt to or from. I don't want to discourage people helping junglers in the jungle, only that the jungler pays a shared price for the assistance or more accurately shares the reward for the assistance.

Empress Red6/23/2018, 9:57:01 AM2 votes

It's not really necessary I don't think, and I'll say why.

Most of these strats come out of high elo players, and to pull them off reliably, you need to know what you're doing and have excellent coordination between your team, not just the people doing the boosting and their living, breathing helper.

Evidence of this I've seen in some of my ranked games, and I am far, far from the elo these strats originated from, and no one in my elo is that skilled. A Yi was doing this with Taric. Yes, it worked well, but something went wrong on the map once, and it became a fiesta. We won, yes, but it wasn't because of that. The entire time had to kick it up to their best to make it work because it wasn't going optimally, and the people doing the strat were tunneling. Was very clear it wasn't a booster or someone with that kind of experience. Weren't bad, but still, you can tell.

I've seen a mid Lulu with a Twitch jg before that WAS a booster, and it was a complete shit stomp. Their entire match history had NO losses, lvl 30 accounts, and the Lulu's played with history was all variations of weird John Denver and Lemon Pinesol usernames, each of which only played Twitch jg and had a similar match history only of wins.

These strats are not autowins. They require a degree of macro people below plat (hell, I'll say diamond) probably aren't going to have, so it isn't a major issue, in my opinion, simply because of the type of person required to pull them off. Yi is a bastard. He gets ahead, he wins often, but that's a Yi thing more than a gold funneling strat thing. We saw the same shit with Yi and Kayle top. I faced that several times, and made the Yi kill himself on my turret, so long as my other team members didn't feed, but if they fed, Yi, Kayle, strat, or no, it still was probably going to be a big issue because that's just the game, not a thing inherent to the strat.

Fact is, for most people, these strats aren't going to be an issue, let alone something major, and on the elos where they will be immensely effective, the enemy team is probably competent enough to play against it. So, at the end of the day, it becomes a matter of occasionally seeing a smurf boosting someone and doing it well, maybe 1 game in a 100, or something, which isn't a big deal. A loss isn't fun, but sometimes the booster is on your team, and you can enjoy the free win.

BestPudgeNA6/24/2018, 1:59:12 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Bache,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umPmVbuE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-22T19:31:29.084+0000)

  1. Non-buff Monsters have takedown exp sharing. This is so that the champion that the gold is being funneled onto pays a shared battle exp price for sharing...., the experience of the battle (of the jungle camp). This is thematically fair without affecting buff leashes.

This is factually wrong. While Buff leashes are the most common they aren't the only camps that get leashed currently or in the past.

Also think you misunderstand why the gold funneling strat exists and why it popped up on 8.10.

In effect a fed hyper carry+support > Traditional JG+MID. In order to create a gamestate were gold funneling isn't meta you need to tip the scales towards JG+MID > fed hyper carry+support. Making mid+jg share XP in these strats doesn't really accomplish that as generally speaking the hyper carry is a gold dependent champ rather then XP, while the "support" is XP dependent rather then gold. So sharing JG xp would ultimately buff these strats compared to a traditional JG+MID.

Riot needs to buff some more of the XP they took away from JG in 8.10 to increase the roles power level. Otherwise making mid+jg a duo laner is gonna be the new META.

The Space Cowboy6/22/2018, 11:09:33 PM1 votes

I think if a strategy works it’s just a meta shift. Unless nobody enjoys it.

remakoro6/23/2018, 1:30:53 AM1 votes

But why? Let people play the way they want. Its not like gold multiplies or comes out of nothing. And its not like those strats aint without holes. They have tons of things that can go wrong.

Blynx6/23/2018, 5:02:01 AM1 votes

The only option is to gut the jungle. Which is good IMO. Gut the jungle to what it was S3. Thanks.

PrinceOfStorms6/23/2018, 5:50:30 AM1 votes

The other thing that needs to happen is that attack speed should be gutted as a stat. Like 1000g for 15% AS.

Terchio6/23/2018, 8:33:46 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Bache,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=umPmVbuE,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-22T19:31:29.084+0000)

  1. Non-buff Monsters have takedown exp sharing. This is so that the champion that the gold is being funneled onto pays a shared battle exp price for sharing...., the experience of the battle (of the jungle camp). This is thematically fair without affecting buff leashes.

No real reason to treat the buffs special. If the champion does better delaying the buff after the minor camp, more power to them. I don't get what issue this is solving. If we really want to remove funneling into jungle (which really is moot in current jungle without ganking being addressed), we need to simply remove allied impact entirely. Something like Monsters are invulnerable to all units without Smite until 2:30. They've already made Smite-exclusive mechanics that I'd rather didn't exist, might as well get jungle exclusivity done fully and completely.

A) _ Rework minion exp sharing so that instead of minion exp being shared equally by nearby champions.., that the exp favors the lower leveled champions._

Again, doesn't effect current jungle without heavy ganking proficiency or lane deficiency. This only serves to make a fed lane the preferred lane to gank, as any excessive earnings will be heavier for the usually-experience-strapped jungler.

B) Rework Jungle items to still give bonus exp from jungle monsters but in return.., penalized exp (or shared exp) from lane minion.

Not a terrible idea, but again, not necessary. Monsters have a natural exp cap (respawn rate), just as lanes do. The only ones that break this are the ones who can far outclass their counterpart, just like any lane. I'd only do this on lane minion gold (while slightly boosting monster gold with a jungle item) to make a concrete reason to refrain from taxing on ganks (and in effect, attempting to gold-funnel self as jungler).

I'd definitely make changes to the current jungling climate. Making Smite mandatory through jungle items was a mistake, and gating experience behind them instead of gold is a bigger one. I get that the intention is to even out lategame impact of all junglers by evening out gold values across the board better (which means advantage impact drops throughout the duration of the game), but what it has actually done is make jungler EXP notably insufficient across the board unless they utilize their inherent advantage outside the jungle, through ganks in lanes. I've hated that change since it first started how long now? 3 seasons ago?

Again, I think it'd be beneficial all around if jungle got more jungle proficient rather than lane deficient. Lane proficiency is a somewhat logical point to look at, but it's only a focus because the jungle itself ends up being a monumental waste of time.

Familiar Faces6/23/2018, 1:31:35 PM1 votes

But I won't lie the critique on my idea did get me thinking. Especially the exp concerns and the is doing anything even necessary/just a meta shit concerns? Like is addressing gold fthe wrong approach? What are alternatives? How is the strat countered in game (as opposed to how is it messed up).

Daddy Ants6/23/2018, 3:53:36 PM1 votes

They need to nerf MissFortune

Spârky6/23/2018, 4:34:31 PM1 votes

I will say I saw meddler say that they explored with changes like that but that it made too many new problems so they are just directly nerfing the offenders like yi/nunu/karthus/taric. Which makes sense because god knows what the next op thing could be if we changes a systematic thing like exp

Familiar Faces6/22/2018, 8:00:32 PM1 votes

Please give any feedback or alternatives. Even if you agree (read: especially) say why you do or what you feel could be added or taken away. This was intended as a discussion.