"Games shouldn't be won in champion select" -Riot 2015

MurderByNumbers·Jul 28, 2016·4 votes·1,105 views

2016: Jhin/Annie vs Draven/Brand bot.

Anyone want to explain to me how it is possible to win this lane without jungler intervention?

If Annie hangs back, Jhin gets poked out of lane. If she goes forward, she gets bursted before she can get in range.
Brand's burst is better than Annie's. Normally this means the correct play is to CC and burst brand before he can get his combo off, but his laning partner is Draven.

2016-07-29 Edit: it isn't fair for me to ask for what I could have done without giving the link to the match. Here it is:

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2252592352/233240291

23 Comments

FaieJul 29, 20162 votes

"Games shouldn't be won in champion select" means that just there shouldn't be champions that are so "OP" they guarantee a win straight from champ select, and that super hard counters shouldn't exist. Also, Jhin/Annie is a pretty terrible lane to begin with, and you're playing it against 2 early game bullies.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

super hard counters shouldn't exist

Jhin/Annie vs Brand/Draven. There's your super hard counter.

III BAKURYU III Jul 29, 20162 votes

Champion diversity some champions are stronger than others at the start of the game and the strong champions early tend to fall off while the weak early champions scale into monsters.

Just play safe if your in a counter or bully lane or just not winning trades and try to farm under tower.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uWPEAd8e,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-29T00:14:05.958+0000)

Champion diversity some champions are stronger than others at the start of the game and the strong champions early tend to fall off while the weak early champions scale into monsters.

Just play safe if your in a counter or bully lane or just not winning trades and try to farm under tower.

We did that. Brand poked us a lot under tower (while nunu chain ganked the trundle top who wasn't overextended, got nothing out of it) and forced us back a couple of times. They got a level advantage, caught me out and got a kill. By that point, a brand W was taking ~1/3 of my hp (and a full rotation w/ ult was 100% of my hp), so it was difficult to even stay in lane and farm under tower.

Jhin had 64 cs at 15 minutes, precisely because we opted to miss a lot of CS rather than trade with them (also because he didn't know how to farm side lanes after laning was over, but this was a different issue).

III BAKURYU III Jul 29, 20161 votes

Happens man, games like that happens to us all.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uWPEAd8e,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-07-29T04:14:56.674+0000)

Happens man, games like that happens to us all.

Games like that shouldn't happen.

I can accept if I get outplayed. I can accept if I fuck up and lose because of it, or if one of my teammates fucks up and we lose because of it.

If literally anybody in this thread could say to me "Hey, in that situation, the right strategy is to do XYZ," I'd be happy.

But it seems like the right strategy is to take one for the team and afk at the start so your team can /remake and save themselves the inevitable loss.

That's what pisses me off.

DarkLordArbiturJul 28, 20161 votes

Well if you had a real support, like Leona, you would be able to stunlock the Brand or the Draven for the Jhin to get massive damage off, or you could use someone like Sona and poke the squishies down until Jhin can do the damages, or you could do any number of things since you're fighting two feast or famine champions that don't do well when not getting constantly fed kill+assist gold. Taking anything other than a support into bot lane to do support things is just a terrible idea.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well if you had a real support, like Leona, you would be able to stunlock the Brand or the Draven for the Jhin to get massive damage off, or you could use someone like Sona and poke the squishies down until Jhin can do the damages, or you could do any number of things since you're fighting two feast or famine champions that don't do well when not getting constantly fed kill+assist gold. Taking anything other than a support into bot lane to do support things is just a terrible idea.

This is pretty much a one trick Jhin account. I just happened not to call mid/top/adc in time that game. Only these champs are available:

Amumu Annie Ashe Cassiopeia Garen Gragas Irelia Jhin Katarina Maokai Nunu Ryze Sion Sivir Sona Soraka Varus XinZhao

Sona has never been my type and playing Raka just makes me sad that I can't do shit like tankraka solo bot anymore.

That leaves amumu, annie, gragas, mao, nunu, and sion as non-troll support picks. I went with Annie because she has instant hard cc to keep people suck on jhin traps, and because if I can get fed on her, it's fun.

AstôlfoJul 28, 20161 votes

Picking that in the first place was a bad idea. That doesn't automatically determine a win. Skill is a huge part of it. But going into a matchup like that is asking for trouble.

It's like playing Pokemon. Sure, you could play a Water type against a Grass type. Sure, you can still win. Will you have a hard/frustrating/bad time? Yes, you will.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Picking that in the first place was a bad idea. That doesn't automatically determine a win. Skill is a huge part of it. But going into a matchup like that is asking for trouble.

Blind pick.

I hate it, and I would play draft, but I already have 3 minute queues; I don't want to wait 10 minutes to get into a game. That slows down my leveling dramatically.

AstôlfoJul 29, 20161 votes

The fact it's blind pick sorta hurts your argument. The only game mode this game is balanced around is Ranked, which is draft. And assuming this was Draft, if you still picked that into the matchup anyways, that's sort of your own problem. Yes, it's a bad matchup. No, it does not mean an automatic loss.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The fact it's blind pick sorta hurts your argument. The only game mode this game is balanced around is Ranked, which is draft. And assuming this was Draft, if you still picked that into the matchup anyways, that's sort of your own problem.

I disagree. It's still completely possible to get this lane in ranked. Say, if Jhin and I were picks 1 & 2 while draven and brand were their team's 3 & 4.

Yes, it's a bad matchup. No, it does not mean an automatic loss.

Hoping meme makes it ok to be condescending.

http://i.imgur.com/x3wt8OU.png

In seriousness though, I'd love to hear what I could have done.

AstôlfoJul 30, 20161 votes

Then they counterpicked you. Playing against a counter is still possible, it just takes a lot of skill and knowledge about the counter and their specific weaknesses.

For instance, Jhin and Annie both have significant effects on each counter. Annie's mana costs are almost non-existent, while Brand cannot continuously spam his abilities because they take more mana. Jhin doesn't need his abilities to poke that much, so he can generally save his mana for W and then E traps. Annie could passively raise her counter to 4 each time for the stun in the back and then come forward with a Q stun (which is point and click meaning it's impossible to escape), or if you're willing to risk more, get closer and use your arc-cone thing (W I think?). After 6, the bear's a strong option too.

After either Jhin roots them and then Annie stuns them afterwards or vice versa, they cannot move away. The Jhin should be saving his fourth shot for poking when an opportunity like this arises, and at this point, Annie can unload the rest of her abilities fairly safely as well.

In early game, the Draven (assuming they're good) will be running around to catch their axes for the enhanced buffs or whatever it gives him. There's also a clear indicator of where said axe will land. Yes, the Draven can control where it lands. Yes, it still shows the clear indicator no matter what. That's pretty much a direct sign of where he will be moving, hence, Jhin can throw his W root towards that direction or throw down a trap or Annie can shoot her W conic or whatever towards that area.

With Brand, you can't really do much about his point and click, but until he gets Rylai's, it doesn't do that much by itself. He'll be maxing his W (the fire pillar) first which is where most of laning phase happens. Dodge around them. Sorry if that doesn't sound helpful, but that's pretty much the key to it. And it's fairly easy to dodge in most cases. His Q is also a relatively slow skillshot that doesn't go through minions, so it should be fairly easy to dodge as long as you maneuver around and behind minions carefully. Think of it like a Blitzcrank matchup except it stuns you at your spot instead of pulling you in. Neither of their Qs can go through minions and both are skillshots.

This is a matchup you'll probably be pushed back a bit, but that's not a terrible thing. Stay back where it's safer and continually harass them with traps and the fourth shot/stuns during the times you have them. Jhin's fourth scales off missing health, so the longer they stay there, the more damage they will continually take as it hits them. And between his W root and your stun, it shouldn't be that hard to land them.

This is also a matchup where you'll probably want at least a few early ganks to crush them and snowball first ahead of them, which will also help immensely. I hope that could help.

Duke AnaxJul 28, 20161 votes

Keep in mind that you don't have to win lane in order to win game, often it is enough not to lose lane.

One alternativeoption with Annie, if you can't win with damage, is to go tanky. Get some points in Shield and go item 2301 for quick support item. Then what i like to doon a lot of champs is this combo: item 3025 item 3001 seems weird at first but it gives you a nice combnation of mixed offense and mixed defense.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uWPEAd8e,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-28T23:40:33.218+0000)

Keep in mind that you don't have to win lane in order to win game, often it is enough not to lose lane.

I'm well aware, friend. We weren't trying to win lane; we were trying to survive.

One alternativeoption with Annie, if you can't win with damage, is to go tanky. Get some points in Shield and go for quick support item. Then what i like to doon a lot of champs is this combo: seems weird at first but it gives you a nice combnation of mixed offense and mixed defense.

See here's the thing. All that relies on actually having gold to buy items with. When you lose lane, you don't have that gold.

I went coin for more sustain in lane. I finished locket before buying a sightstone trying to get tanky. But by the time I was able to afford those items, the game was over.

Duke AnaxJul 29, 20161 votes

OK I made a mistake there, Annie will have trouble will spellthief in that matchup, so you probably want to switch to item 2302 to get more coin. Then you have to try to stay alive above all and soak all the minions you can get.

Locket was not a bad choice, but it is ALL tanky, meaning once you are done tanking all the work is left to Jhin. an Abyssal instead would ahve allowed ou to survive brand burst until you can deal out your own.

Alternaively, with your base and shield, you actually need health rather than more resistance, So going item 3152 is also a rather cheep but effective option. Proto Bear Bomber can turn a fight and it leaves your flash for escape.

Also, when you are loosing lane you already did something wrong, usualy trying to win and suiciding. I once did such a lane with Alistar solo, because 4v5, they got CS, but I got XP, I hit six right when they tried to tripple dive me, got a doubble kill and their jungler ran away, into Lee.

MurderByNumbersJul 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uWPEAd8e,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-07-29T10:03:58.924+0000)

OK I made a mistake there, Annie will have trouble will spellthief in that matchup, so you probably want to switch to to get more coin. Then you have to try to stay alive above all and soak all the minions you can get.

That's what I did. I had item 3096 item 2049 . I would have upgraded to item 2302 if I'd had the gold.

But I was fighting just to stay in XP range without getting chunked, so I still had to b frequently.

Locket was not a bad choice, but it is ALL tanky, meaning once you are done tanking all the work is left to Jhin. an Abyssal instead would ahve allowed ou to survive brand burst until you can deal out your own.

Perhaps. But Locket also gives Jhin MR and helps him stay in lane longer. It's certainly a close call between them. Perhaps I made the wrong choice.

Alternaively, with your base and shield, you actually need health rather than more resistance

Annie's shield is % damage reduction since patch 6.9, so both hp and resistances are equally effective. HP is nice in that it's also effective vs Draven. Locket gives both.

So going is also a rather cheep but effective option. Proto Bear Bomber can turn a fight and it leaves your flash for escape.

I like having flash for escapes. Or longer engages. I don't like the components of the build too much, though. Revolver, I can't make full use of unless I AA, and I don't want to get in AA range of brand frequently if I can help it. Kindlegem is decent but the aura from Aegis is so much better as a rush item.

Overall, I think this would be a decent second item, after Aegis but before Locket. Full locket rush probably wasn't smart; I should have gotten some damage instead (ie, codex instead of kindlegem).

Also, when you are loosing lane you already did something wrong, usualy trying to win and suiciding.

I'm well aware of this. This is my 3rd smurf (4th account), and the biggest difference I've noticed between silver (where I've spent the most time smurfing) and high gold (where my main is) is that silver thinks they have to carry. So they get behind, and continue trying to fight and outplay... and fail and feed. Gold is a bit better at stepping back and letting someone else carry.

I assure you that Jhin and I were not trying to carry. We were trying (unsuccessfully) to survive.

I once did such a lane with Alistar solo, because 4v5, they got CS, but I got XP, I hit six right when they tried to tripple dive me, got a doubble kill and their jungler ran away, into Lee.

Heh. I've done quite a bit of solo bot. Old Soraka solo bot was the shit. Your Q allowed you to clear the wave while simultaneously trading with BOTH enemies, all without taking minion aggro. Good times...

1wolfpackJul 28, 20161 votes

all things being equal. no one wins, they farm all game and nothing happens. or they trade kills here n there but still stay relatively equal.

but things are never equal in this game. different skill sets, plus u got 4 players in 1 lane and ofcourse junglers are a thing, and so is roaming, TP ganks from top

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

all things being equal. no one wins, they farm all game and nothing happens. or they trade kills here n there but still stay relatively equal.

but things are never equal in this game. different skill sets, plus u got 4 players in 1 lane and ofcourse junglers are a thing, and so is roaming, TP ganks from top

Yeah they pushed all day but nunu decided it was more important to camp their trundle top who wasn't overextending.

They got one kill (a catch on me) before he came bot. When he did, it was right after they turned 6 and we were still 5. It probably still would have been OK except that their quinn mid roamed bot right as nunu came in, and it got Brand his 2nd and 3rd kills and Draven his first.

That was pretty much the end of the game. Brand's 3 basic abilities would chunk me for 2/3 of my hp. His W alone chunked for 1/3 of my hp. So they just continued to push all day and force us b over and over again.

Maybe if other lanes had been ahead we could have farmed up, but both other lanes lost as well, so when they decided to take towers, there was not much our 15-minutes-and-64-cs jhin or the rest of our team could do.

Also I love the "We're down 10 kills, we should probably try to fight them" mentality. But that's a rant for another day.

Meep ManJul 29, 20161 votes

Play extremely passive until Annie reaches Level 6, upon which she can try and make some sneaky vision plays with her ultimate. If she can, she can snowball the lane with Jhin with one good Flash+Ult. If Brand and Draven take the lead, Jhin is going to be forced to try and farm with his Q or maybe even W. It's not an ideal lane to begin with, both Draven and Brand being known for their strong early game, but it can be done through very passive farming. Another possibility is by just poking down Draven and Brand as Jhin. Only Brand has the chance of poking back and even then his poke isn't very reliable at longer ranges. They have no healing mechanics in their lane excluding the Summoner Spell, so just poking with Jhin's extreme W is good too. This means maxing W first by the way.

Also, why are we excluding jungle intervention? Shouldn't all factors be considered for winning a lane including the jungler? You are up against two lane bullies, even champions with longer range than Annie and Jhin would want at least a little bit of assistance from the jungler.

MurderByNumbersJul 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uWPEAd8e,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-07-29T04:43:33.015+0000)

Play extremely passive until Annie reaches Level 6, upon which she can try and make some sneaky vision plays with her ultimate. If she can, she can snowball the lane with Jhin with one good Flash+Ult. If Brand and Draven take the lead, Jhin is going to be forced to try and farm with his Q or maybe even W. It's not an ideal lane to begin with, both Draven and Brand being known for their strong early game, but it can be done through very passive farming. Another possibility is by just poking down Draven and Brand as Jhin. Only Brand has the chance of poking back and even then his poke isn't very reliable at longer ranges. They have no healing mechanics in their lane excluding the Summoner Spell, so just poking with Jhin's extreme W is good too. This means maxing W first by the way.

Also, why are we excluding jungle intervention? Shouldn't all factors be considered for winning a lane including the jungler? You are up against two lane bullies, even champions with longer range than Annie and Jhin would want at least a little bit of assistance from the jungler.

Yeah, our jungler decided that camping the trundle top who was playing safely was more important than coming bot while brand was harassing us under tower.

http://i.imgur.com/uFl4qjv.png?noredirect

dim2aJul 29, 20161 votes

Games should not be won in champ select. But games can be lost in champ select. If you, say, pick soraka mid and lose, that game being lost in champ select is not a balance problem.

Annie can be played at support but she is not "standard" support. If it was leo or soraka or sona support, you probably wouldn't lose that hard. Annie is a damage support without long range poke, and the champion is designed as midlaner, so it's OK if she fails at support vs. certain matchups (or even all the time!). Off-meta/niche picks are fun, but I don't think they fall under riot's statement of "games not being won in champ select".

In response to above post: In this situation the right strategy is to pick someone with "support" either primary or secondary as your support (surprising as that may sound) if you're not wiling to take risk of being counterpicked. Not annie who is designed as mid.

MurderByNumbersJul 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Games should not be won in champ select. But games can be lost in champ select. If you, say, pick soraka mid and lose, that game being lost in champ select is not a balance problem.

I agree, but Jhin/Annie is not such a terrible lane that picking it should lose you the game, IMO. It's just that brand support does essentially does the same things as Annie support, but better.

Also FWIW, I've played Soraka mid and it's actually a reasonable niche pick. Her laning is reasonably strong; she can win fights in side lanes with her ult; and she can roam to side lanes just to heal them up. However, her damage falls off really hard out of laning, so it's only a useful pick if you're running a protect the hyper carry comp.

Annie can be played at support but she is not "standard" support. If it was leo or soraka or sona support, you probably wouldn't lose that hard. Annie is a damage support without long range poke, and the champion is designed as midlaner, so it's OK if she fails at support vs. certain matchups (or even all the time!). Off-meta/niche picks are fun, but I don't think they fall under riot's statement of "games not being won in champ select".

Unfortunately, my champ pool is rather small. These are all the champions I have who could possibly support: Sona Soraka Amumu Annie Gragas Maokai Nunu Sion Ashe

Sona has never been my type and playing Raka just makes me miss the way she was before her rework. Of the others available, I feel like Maokai and Sion are the only ones that would have stood a chance. maaaaybe amumu.