Boards›Gameplay

Delete Talisman, change Machete to balance dps and regen for all junglers

Velkozito·4/12/2017, 11:32:58 AM·1 votes·1,040 views

IMPORTANT : You can understand the general idea of this post by reading only words in bold. If you want the details, read everything !

Greeting summoners,

I think the current jungle starting item system, where you choose between item 1041 and item 1039, is pretty bad. Here is why :

Concerning item 1041 :

  • Its damage and health regen favors champions that rely a lot on their auto-attacks to clear camps.

  • While it is a good item to "1v1" monsters, it's pretty bad for jungle camps with many monsters (hello raptors).

  • It gives no mana regen.

This means that this item is optimal when : 1) you rely on your auto-attacks 2) you are fighting gromp or a buff 3) you don't need mana regen If one or several of these 3 criterias are not satisfied, then Machete isn't very optimal.

Concerning item 1039 :

  • Its damage and health regen favors champions that can use AoE spells to clear camps.

  • It is a good item to fight camps with many monsters, and is pretty bad to clear buffs or gromp for example.

  • It gives mana regen.

This means this item is optimal when : 1) you have AoE spells 2) you are fighting raptors, krugs or wolves 3) you need mana regen If one or several of these 3 criterias are not satisfied, then Talisman isn't very optimal.

Basically, this means that :

  • If you are fighting Gromp, Red, Blue or Scuttler, better have Machete (but you will have no mana regen)
  • If you are fighting Raptors, Krugs or Wolves, better have Talisman (but you need AoE spells to use the passive)

Some examples :

  • Evelynn : Her Q says "get Talisman", her E says "get Machete". Her mana needs say "get Talisman".
  • Amumu : His entire kit is made to clear camps with many monsters. His mana needs say "get Talisman". So, vs Gromp or a Buff, he is very bad.

This makes everything more complicated than it should be.

**Here is my idea to simplify and balance everything **:

Delete item 1039. The only jungle item will be item 1041,** but it needs radical changes to satisfy all junglers :**

New Hunter's Machete (350 gold) :

Unique passive - Butcher : Deal an additional percentage of damage to monsters based on your level. Killing large monsters grant special bonus experience Unique passive - Butcher's Rest : Upon dealing damage to monsters, regenerate 20 health and 10 mana over 2 seconds.

=> Additionnal damage : 18% at level 1 ; 6% at level 18 (decreasing by 2 % at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) (doesn't work with true damage !)

This implies we will also change these guys item 3706 item 3715 item 3711

New smite buff items (700 gold, build path = Machete + 350 gold) :

Unique passive - Butcher : Deal an additional percentage of damage to monsters based on your level. Killing large monsters grant special bonus experience Unique passive - Butcher's Rest : Restore a percentage of the damage you deal to monsters as health and half that percentage as mana

=> Health regen : 12% of damage dealt at level 1 ; 6% at level 18 (decreasing by 1% at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) => Mana regen : 6% of damage dealt at level 1 ; 3% at level 18 (decreasing by 0.5% at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18)

Consequence on the enchantments : they would cost 1925 gold. This could allow us to add some things in their build paths (like a dagger for Bloodrazor, a longsword for Warrior, a ruby cristal for Cinderhulk), but talking about this isn't the point of this post.

=> Machete's fixed health and mana regen would force junglers to improve their smite if they want significant lategame regen

=> A bonus percentage of damage is the best way to help all junglers in the same way, no matter how they deal damage to monsters

=> Making it decrease is mandatory, because 18% is exactly what a jungler need in earlygame (check my example down below), but it would be op in lategame. Same goes for regen.

=> You buy a Machete item 1041 to build into a Blade item 3706, a Sabre item 3715 or a Knife item 3711. Isn't it beautifully logical ?

**1st Example : **

A level 1 MasterYi fights Blue buff (he gets no pull). He has item 1041.

During the fight he uses 2 times his q spell, dealing about 385 damage. Blue has 2000 hp, so Yi has to deal 1615 damage with his autos

He has 60 AD and 0,85 attack speed, and as he has Machete, his autos deal 60+25=85 damage.

1615/85=19

He needs 20 autos to kill blue. On these 20 autos he regens (85x0,10)x19=8,5x20=161,5 hp

20/0,85=23 seconds (number of autos to kill blue/attack speed=duration of the fight)

Thanks to machete he dealt 85 damage instead of 60, so machete increased his auto attacks' damage on blue by ((85/60)-1)x100=42%

This bonus damage helped him with only ((1615/2000)x100)=80,75% of blue's health (because his q spell has no use for machete), so his total damage was enhanced by 42x0,8075=34%

To sum things up, with a current item 1041, MasterYi got 34% bonus damage, and he regenerated 161,5 health.

With my item 1041 , MasterYi would have gotten 18% bonus damage and regenerated 230 health (with the Butcher's rest passive) and 115 mana (his 2 q spells cost him 70x2=140 mana). ** => Slower clear because less damage but better regen (and in particular, better mana regen)**

2nd Example :

A level 1 Amumu fight blue buff (he gets no pull). He has item 1039.

At the beginning of the fight he toggled his W, which deals 30 damage per second to blue buff. In addition, his talisman deals 5 damage per second to blue buff. Finally, Amumu has 60 ad and 0,65 attack speed, which means a dps of 39.

30+5+39=74 damage per second ; and 5 health regen per second, as well as 2,6 mana regen per second from Talisman

2000/74=27 seconds fight (blue's health/amumu's dps=duration of the fight)

This means amumu regens 5x27=135hp and 27x2,6=70 mana

The bonus damage represents 5/74=6,8% (bonus dps from Talisman/total dps=% of damage dealt by Talisman) of his total damage to blue buff

To sum things up, with a current item 1039, Amumu got 6,8% bonus damage, and he regenerated 135 health and 70 mana

With my item 1041 , Amumu would have gotten 18% bonus damage and regenerated 270 health (10 health per second) and 135 mana (his w sot him 8x27=216 mana). (actually, less than 270 and 135 because the fight would have been quicker because of the bonus damage)

=> Faster clear because more damage and more better regen (and in particular, better mana regen)

When you buff your smite you get the new passive, with the heal from a percentage of damage dealt. This makes things even simpler : when clearing a camp, the jungler regens exactly (at level 6 for example) 10% of the camp's health, and gets an amount of mana equal to 5% of the camp's health.

**TO SUM THINGS UP : **

EVERY JUNGLER WOULD GAIN A REASONNABLE AMOUNT OF DPS, HEALTH AND MANA REGEN, WHILE FIGHTING ANY CAMP AT ANY MOMENT OF THE GAME

Thanks for reading, hope you liked my idea :)

9 Comments

Velkozito4/12/2017, 11:36:07 AM1 votes

Also, feel free to comment, and if you think it's not a good idea in its current form, I'd love it if you made propositions to make it better !

Aptest4/12/2017, 11:47:08 AM1 votes

here is my comment. jungle clear heavily favors dealing damage.

therefore the favored junglers are damage dealing champions, whether they are "carries" (MasterYi), "tanky-DPS" (Vi,Hecarim) or "assassins" (Rengar , Khazix ).

With Zac and Amumu being exemptions, jungle tanks are not something you see nowadays. This is because of their slow clear.

Clear time for tanks should be considerably increased, while clear time for damage dealers decreased.

suggestion: more armor and MR for the camps, and the tank item should burn for %HP true damage that scales on the hp of the tank (on camps)

Frightning4/12/2017, 11:49:34 AM1 votes

item 1041 and item 1039 have different attributes specifically because they synergize with different junglers inherent strengths. item 1041 is best choice to start on junglers which rely primarily on their basic attacks to clear camps, especially if they have built-in attack speed steroids (ex: Udyr's Q and XinZhao's W), whereas item 1039 is meant for junglers that rely more on their abilities and area damage effects to clear camps (ex: Amumu and Diana). Some junglers can make similarly effective use of both, and so then, the choice comes down to which set of effects provides a more valuable benefit for your intended play pattern during the initial part of the laning phase as a jungler. Hunter's Machete generally leads to faster clears particularly on champs that can use both jungle components well, but at the cost of lower mana and perhaps lower health (latter depends on how well they can keep the health drain effect of item 1039 up on the entire camp instead of just 1 target).