Few "FUN" facts about Armor and Armor Penetration.

Sherogarth·7/23/2019, 11:33:47 PM·41 votes·13,005 views

I. For some reason Armor Reduction from different sources stacks multiplicatively.

II. List of champions with armor reduction build in thier kits (at max lvl): Garen E -> 25% armor reduction, JarvanIV Q -> 26% armor reduction, Jayce passive -> 25% armor reduction, Kayle Q -> 20% armor reduction, KogMaw Q -> 28% armor reduction, Nasus E -> 35% armor reduction, Renekton E -> 35% armor reduction, Sion E -> 20% armor reduction, Trundle R -> 40% armor reduction, Vi W -> 20% armor reduction, MonkeyKing Q -> 30% armor reduction,

![Corki](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/champion/Corki.png) E -> flat 20 armor reduction,
![Rengar](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.11.1/img/champion/Rengar.png) R -> flat 24 armor reduction,

III. It is possible to reach over 1000 armor on certain champions. (it's not even such a troll build) https://i.imgur.com/eDbH23u.png

IV. A team of Renekton (top), JarvanIV (jungle), MonkeyKing (mid), KogMaw (adc) and Trundle (sup) can reduce said 1000 armor down to around 123 armor... 12% of the initial value.

**Math: ** 1000 x (1 - 0.35) x (1 - 0.26) x (1 - 0.3) x (1 - 0.2) x (1 - 0.4) x (1 - 0.24) (for item 3071) = 122,83 which can be further reduced by item 3036 down to 80 and even further by lethality down to around 20 armor. Glorious 2% of the initial value.

V. One point of armor is worth around 20 gold. Our 1000 armor tank just wasted 17 540 gold from armor reduction alone and 19 600 gold‬ if we consider further penetration.

VI. Single Garen + item 3071 offers your team a teamwide effect of 43% armor reduction thanks to his spin. Throw in any other champion with armor reduction, lets say JarvanIV in the jungle and you have a potential 58% armor reduction for your entire team. Most tanks reach around 250 - 300 armor in average game. This means that often thier actual armor can be lower than 150... It's hard to call that a tank.

VII. Additionaly Armor Reduction also reduces damage of abilities and items that scale with armor. Isn't it great that one stat can destroy both your defense and your offense at the same time?

VIII. It's probably impossible to balance a game where one of it's core stats is so volatile that it can change form 1000 to 20 in few seconds.

IX. We are in a League of Black Cleavers again and we aren't even aware of this. I just hope some lost Riotter will read this.

Edit Just to clarify few things.

I dont think that Armor Reduction is to blame for all evil things on this world. It's quite the opposite in fact. We need those ridiculous amounts of Armor Reduction to keep in check tanks who can stack tones of resistances since the Tank Update. Imagine landing in a game where your entire team is AD, there is 1k armor tank in enemy team and all you can do against it is to build item 3071 + item 3036. For those of your teammastes who rely just on Black Cleaver's reduction it's still a 750 armor walking wall. For those who go for item 3036 its 500 armor beast... It still ignores 80% of your damage.

Thats why if we want a balanced game we need to look at things from all angles and maybe sacrifice something for greater good.

Just preventing Armor Reduction from stacking would risk at casting us into a unhealthy tank meta. What should be done on top of that is to nerf those extereme cases of resistance stacking as well.

Here is a list of steps that Rito should make in my opinion to bring tanks back to the game and maybe even reduce some of current damage creep:

  1. Make % Armor Reduction unstackable.
  2. Standardize % Armor Reduction in champions kits to 25% (except for Trundle, thats his ult after all).
  3. Reduce % Armor Reduction on item 3071 down to 15% at 5 stacks or remove it from BC and create new item because having an item that is both core and counter item at the same time is a bit wierd.
  4. Tone average Armor and MR of tanks down(or up in some cases) to 300 and 200 respectively at full build.
  5. Reduce the power of defensive cooldowns so that tanks can't go far above 400 armor and 300 mr.
  6. Add some utility to defensive CDs - armor aura for your team, slow around you, cdr whenever something hits you... just some examples.
  7. Add some health back to the tank items.
  8. Profit.

Now lets do some math after those changes:

A tank player decided to play a tank in a game with one (or more) of the champions that can Reduce Armor by 25%: 300 x (1 - 0.25) = 225 armor - thats the armor that most of the enemy team whould have to deal with (still quite tanky but nothing crazy). For an adc who went extra mile and bought item 3036 this gets reduced down to 146,25 armor.

Now for a tank who is agains item 3071 only team. 300 x (1 - 0.15) = 255 armor - BC reduces 45 armor, almost entire item of armor. For an adc who went extra mile and bought item 3036 this gets reduced down to 165,75 armor.

Ofcourse all this is just a rough math but im quite sure that balancing a game where resistances are somewhat set in stone would be much, much easier that now, when everthing is a variable that can go from 20 to 1000 :D.

Tanks For Reading.

37 Comments

vyoda7/24/2019, 4:51:16 AM9 votes

I’m no tank expert, but maybe the Malphite in your example would stack HP rather than pure armor against an enemy team with that much armor pen?

Otherwise, thanks for the fun read

YoRHa 2B7/24/2019, 5:05:45 PM6 votes

Garen has armor reduction on his E, W is damage reduction.

Anu3isII7/24/2019, 5:27:02 PM5 votes

I personally believe a Tank should be able to punish a full AD team. After all, they skip one of their major stats (MR) and build as much Armor as they want.

Armor reduction has never been a necessary evil. It always was added to bruisers in order to make them better at dealing with Tanks in lane. Black Cleaver and recently Conqueror have been made for this sole reason to help them. Sure, they sometimes help their allies, but I personally think the ally interaction is minimal for most of the champions you mentioned (compared to their Dueling aspect).

season10balanced7/24/2019, 3:49:14 AM4 votes

Good read [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

NY647/24/2019, 2:55:54 PM4 votes

Wow, this is one of the best posts I’ve seen, I hope this gets on top of reddit so Riot will finally learn why damage is so ridiculous.

SuicidePlank7/23/2019, 11:40:02 PM3 votes

Me: Looks at the post, ignores it since GP isn't mentioned. Also me: Locks in GP, who has 40% Armor Pen on Barrels from LVL 1 onwards. :3 Also, also me: Wants release Rework GP back with 60%.

UwU

EDIT: Also, Corki deals 80% Magic DMG with AAs anyway, so his Armor Reduction is kinda shit, since he needs to close and, again, deals magic DMG.

PopcornBunni7/25/2019, 5:13:48 AM3 votes

Something you didn't even mention is that raw AD doesn't even need armor pen to beat armor. Even against a full AD comp, 6 armor items can't beat 6 AD items

item 3068 item 3742 item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 item 3047 = 390 Armor, the most feasible without extra bonus % armor, add a tanks' base armor around 110 for 500 armor

n=Not even grabbing the black cleaver or last whisper items for extra pen, item 3072 item 3031 item 3153 item 3094 item 3087 item 3006 on even a level 1 Orianna with the lowest base AD in the game, grants 40+80+80+40 AD = 240 AD, dps then gets multiplied by the attack speed and crit modifiers +95% AS, +75% crit, +25% IE = 1023.75 AD, then divided by the ninja tabi, frozen heart, cold steel, and randuin's crit reduction *.88, *.85 *.85, *(0.75 *0.8 (randuin's only mitigates the crits that actually occur) = 390 AD

The net of all this is 500 armor vs 390 AD. Now, point for point, AD outscales armor at a rate that eqeates to only needing 0.66 times the amount of armor in AD to make an even trade. In other words, the amount of armor would need to be 1.5x the AD to make a full armor set effective against a full AD set. in this case, the **level 1 Orianna ** has an effective AD of 390 per attack, meaning the amount of armor needed to counteract that AD would be 585. Ooh, so close. The tank is so close to being able to win against the level 1 Orianna. If only they memed harder and bought 4 frozen hearts.

"But the health from the tank items"

is countered directly by the lifesteal and BotRK, even through thornmail. There's also the issue of Shiv's magic damage going completely unmitigated and the range difference meaning the carry gets more attacks in before the tank can get their first.

There's a reason the only time tanks aren't being melted like the useless class they are is when they're filled to the brim with excess damage themselves like the hundred or so failed attempts to tweak Galio and Sejuani

Of course in reality a level 1 Oriannawould be destroyed by a tank with just about any item set because she's a level 1 Orianna. The point using her is that she has the very lowest base AD to be multiplied by crit and attack speed. In reality these items would be more built on a champion like Jinx or any other adc with much higher base AD values to feed in.

And in reality players wouldn't opt out of buying item 3036 / item 3071 if only because melting the tank faster means less chances for the carry to be out of position and get jumped.

chipndip17/24/2019, 4:57:12 AM3 votes

There's a good reason why all AD comps STILL suck in 2019, but it's the boards so I guess you guys will never get it.

Is tank-killing a problem rn? Yeah, a good bit.

Is it for the reasons stated? No.

DartExplosion107/24/2019, 9:57:02 PM2 votes

garen e btw not w

Demacian Saint7/25/2019, 6:37:51 AM1 votes

So I'd like to ask a question here: can someone show me the math on that Malphite with total 1069 armor? I tried to figure it out but something didn't add up right. I kept getting to 1022 total armor. I'm pretty sure I missed something but I'd like to see it written out to see where I made my mistake. I replicated the build in the practice tool with Conditioning and the Flex and Defense slots of the rune page with +6 armor.

On another note, I looked at his how much his W passively added armor when his passive, Granite Shield, was active and while it was down. While Granite Shield was active, Malphite had 169 bonus armor from his W. While down, only 164. Seems like nothing right? Only 5 Armor is missing. Well, Granite Shield also effects the bonus armor from Conditioning. To define that, Conditioning adds 9 armor and then increases your total armor by 5%. While Granite Shield is active, Conditioning reads 9(+54). While down, Conditioning shows 9((+36). There's a difference of 18 Armor there. meaning there is an armor loss of 23. With the build in the post, Malphite has 709 total armor without Granite Shield being up.

Why bring this up? Is the way W works supposed to affect Conditioning like that? Also, why is there that armor loss in Conditioning and on Malphite's W passive? I'm really hoping there's just something I'm missing here.

Sohleks7/25/2019, 8:04:48 AM1 votes

What if we went back to the old Last Whisper (total % penetration) but a bit more cost and a little weaker so it's a bit less anti-armor-item?

Current Last Whisper has to do its job so well or ADC meta might just toss it out and go back to rageblade picks. We want them to think about building LW, so unspecialize its power a little bit? Might go back to being an AD caster item too, but I think that might be possibly ok??

SiG DxD7/25/2019, 4:36:16 PM1 votes

when will i see 7 armor shreds on me at the same time ?

NEVER

Vlada Cut7/25/2019, 5:21:29 PM1 votes

League of item 3071. Get out this is League of True Damage noob. summoner 14summoner 14summoner 14summoner 14summoner 14

The Kombinator7/26/2019, 11:41:18 AM1 votes

The primary problem is the concept of the tank. Simply having big survival is worthless. You need to give a reason to focus that tank. Heavy CC, damage, or something else.

Heavy CC needs to be seriously heavy. Otherwise tank just get ignored. Something like stun for 1 second every 2 seconds, or AOE stuff. Stunning for 1 second every 6 second is 12% damage reduction on one target. Nobody cares.

Big damage puts them back into the better in everything than juggernauts.

The something else i thought about is the way Overwatch, and Smite works. Every projectile can be blocked. If tank stays between you, and ADC, then your basic attacks are hitting the tank instead of the ADC. Braum's shield would be buffed so it worths more. Maybe some crazy damage reduction so he can't just block the attacks with his body, but even survive it better.

Once we gave a reason we need to put better survival on them. So they can actually tank the enemy. My idea:

% health, and true damage erased with few exceptions. Ignite, certain ults, and Vayne passive. No item would ever give these.

Armor penetration, and armor reduction capped at 50%. No matter how much you try to stack it.

Armor would give damage reduction lineary with 500 at cap.. That would be 99,9% damage reduction. Going over that would be great for champions who uses it for their skills or to counter armor pen items.

Similar would happen to magic res..

Last but most importantly i would set all abilities to offensive/defensive/ultility.

Offensive abilities would ALWAYS go from AD, or AP. No damage from armor, or health!

Defensive abilities would always go from armor, magic res., or health. No defense from AP, or AD.

Ultilities like now. Go from nothing.

FAQ: But that would mean 1k. armor tank would be unkillable by any AD except Vayne! YES, and that's why you shouldn't bring full AD team maybe.

Wouldn't that make low armor champs easier to kill? Yes that's also the point. Make non-tank champs easier to kill. The adc couldn't survive the full assassin burst, because he got 2 life steal items. Get a protective support, or a minimal defense damage guys!

IronyAndSublime7/24/2019, 10:14:18 AM1 votes

Implies Black Cleaver is broken mentioning ridiculous scenarios on champs that aren't played that much Your logic is pretty bad, especially when people most likely will pick other team comps than what you mention.

Bjørnetjenesten7/24/2019, 6:17:50 PM1 votes

V. One point of armor is worth around 20 gold. Our 1000 armor tank just wasted 17 540 gold from armor reduction alone and 19 600 gold‬ if we consider further penetration.

I wouldn't say wasted, since the enemy comp would need to invest items and cooldowns into actually lowering his armor thus lowering their overall damage output. Also that comp is in itself shit as there is nobody to protect their main dmg source. So 17540 gold invested to win lategame.

HàrrowR7/24/2019, 6:49:25 PM1 votes

I'm not a tank player but you made it seem like a 1k armor tank is essentially worthless every game, in reality there's as you listed 13 out of 140 or something champions with in-built Arpen and a lot of them aren't even played that much like Trundle KogMaw Kayle .

Of the ones listed a lot of them have single target armor shred that's also a skillshot so missing it does nothing or will never be used on the tank MonkeyKing for example will never try to take down a tank in a team fight but will go for the backline instead.

Now stacking armor has diminishing returns, so if getting your first 100 armor reduced the damage you take by 20%, the next 100 will give you less % reduction and so on, at 551 armor you have 85% dmg reduction on malphite, at 1000 armor you get 91%, thats 6% armor increase yet your original 500 armor gave you 85% reduction, what does this mean? This means that even if the enemy reduced your armor by 50% you'd only be taking 6% more damage and not 50% more damage, having all of that armor is kind of an insurance policy against arpen.

Now you're saying that most tanks will end up at 200-300 armor, but that's not really true, not if you're building up full armor and not if you're building only armor, if you go for a full armor build item 3047 item 3068 item 3110 item 3075 item 3143 item 3193 + conditioning will leave you at 500 armor and 82% dmg reduction and this is without probably the most important thing about armor items, their effects

Ninja Tabi -12% dmg from AAs Omen -20% dmg from Criticals -15% AS for the attacker Frozen Heart - 15% AS Thornmail - 62 damage to the attacker per hit + grievous wounds Stoneplate + 40 armor and mr when near 3 champions and active can double your hp

Now unless you're facing Vayne item 3124 this seems like a pretty hard thing to kill i mean when you factor in all of the actives your opponent is left feeling like he has 2 items less than he does, omen cancels Infinity's passive, thornmail cuts your healing in half, frozen heart and tabi lower your damage even further and you have essentially one less attack speed item.

The point is you can get pretty tanky in the game, that doesn't mean that you will literally never die, there's so much cc in this game that it doesn't really matter if it takes 2 or 20 seconds if you get caught and your team is not there to help you, most team comps can perma cc you and take their time with you anyways.

FridgeD7/24/2019, 8:25:57 PM1 votes

come on! the first part of your rant is full of non-sense!

  1. no tank player with a brain goes full armor. after you reach 300 armor you just stack hp (and buy gargoyles)
  2. wukongs, who q the tank and kogmaws with lastwisper are usually trolls.
  3. if the scenario above happens, say gj to yourself. you did your job, taking enemy cds to save your squichies.
  4. if step 3 isnt enough, as malphite, simply ult the enemy kogmaw and press e. your team should easily clean up a team with no abilities avaible and an adc without attack speed.
Shablagoo7/24/2019, 9:10:47 PM1 votes

Wow its almost like armor penetration is doing exactly what its meant to do penetrate armor. What is your point, that when a team gets a bunch of people all having armor pen in their kits tanks dont exist? As long as tanks keep the backline safe they do their job, if the tank gets focused they win the teamfight bascially. Any rengar main that uses their ult on a tank should be banned lol.

I Spread Cancer7/24/2019, 11:26:03 PM1 votes

Then do the same math for magic resistance. You'll see that AD are much more favored than AP. AP are balanced around a team with not many source of AP but then why create so many AP champion? Literraly every support but pyke are ap, every mage are ap, every tank (non juggernaut/bruiser) are AP. Then on the other side a lot of AD champion have inbuilt armor pen or the possibility to go AP/Hybrid. There not so many adc in the game, yet a couple of them can go AP. If im mid i have to play a assasin if i want some AD.

Darkstar Annie7/24/2019, 11:53:35 PM1 votes

Riot Games should hire you.

XeroKimo7/25/2019, 4:45:29 AM1 votes

??? Wouldn't you want armor reduction to stack multiplicatively? Unless you're saying that only the highest value takes priority, in which case I'm up for. Otherwise, additive reduction would makes things worse