Non-rhetorical question: Does Riot still believe in power curves?

CupcakeTrap·8/5/2016, 10:47:34 PM·4 votes·2,806 views

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/wizardsandmelees_9442.jpg

Much of League is about converting gold into power. This question concerns whether different Champions have different conversion rates. The conventional wisdom that I received "back in the day" was that ADCs convert gold into power much more impressively (for large values of gold) than, say, fighters or mages. This was the best justification for "not KSing" that I heard—if we assume that 300 gold does more for Ashe than it does for Janna, you want that kill going to Ashe if possible. It was also the justification for supports warding—once a ward is placed, it doesn't really matter who placed it, it gives power independent of the Champion. Therefore, you might as well have the Champions who gain the least from stat-boosting items buy the wards.

Linear warriors, quadratic wizards

There's a tabletop saying: "linear warriors, quadratic wizards". In other words, some classes follow a fairly linear strength progression, whereas others start out super weak and then ramp up out of control. As a friend of mine once put it, this explains why hiring mages in D&D is a bad idea: the kind of mages you can afford to hire are useless ("COLOR SPRAY! COLOR SPRAY!"), while the mages you want to hire are ascended demigods who "have no need for your pitiful mortal currency".

Cubic carries

When I was introduced to League, it was explained to me that League followed this principle, but added a third category: in League, it was "linear fighters, quadratic mages, cubic carries". Back in the day, "carry" always meant ADC; the term "AP carry" would have been received as a contradiction in terms. Some later added "constant supports".

The explanation for this theory was largely stat-based.

  • Supports have lots of base utility (a level 1 Blitzcrank with no items can still grab a level 18 fully-fed enemy), and sometimes base damage (old Sona's power chords). This was even more important before the Support gold changes: supports were Champions who could thrive on little or no farm. But to keep them balanced, they don't scale well.
  • Fighters scale mostly on things like attack damage, health, and resistances, which don't directly reinforce each other.
  • Mages scale on at least two main stats, AP and MPen, that synergize with each other, producing a quadratic effect.
  • Carries (i.e. ADCs) use autoattacks that scale on multiple stats that directly multiply each other—attack damage, attack speed, crit, ArPen—and thus follow a cubic or higher power-vs-gold progression.

But Riot also was allegedly trying to break away from the DOTA tradition of "hard carries" who, if fed, could legitimately 1v5 the enemy team, and gives mages more late-game potential. In the past few years, people have even begun speaking of "AP carries".

My question

So what do you all think? Has Riot discarded this model? I've noticed a couple trends that suggest it has. For example, supports often scale better with gold now, and a lot of "ADCs" are really "AD mages", with tons of (AD-driven) abilities.

26 Comments

Mercuteio8/5/2016, 11:25:42 PM4 votes

but the thing is the the whole KS thing. people always complain if i "KS" but the way it was explained to me why would i not "steal the kill" as a jungkler if i wasn't even going to get an assist if i didn't? An example is im kha jungle and bot lane has the enemy ashe one shot and she is running but its obvious they will get the kill bot. I feel i should jump in and Q that ashe to not secure the kill but maximize TEAM gold, not individual gold. I feel that an entire team being ahead of the other team in gold is more worthwhile then sanding to the side letting free gold slip through your fingers so your ADC doesn't say "THAT KS THOUGH" I ALL CHAT. Whenever i "KS" as ekko or lux or whoever I'm playing as long as i explain the Team Gold perspective people are almost always okay with it.

just my thoughts

ExHentai8/5/2016, 10:59:28 PM3 votes

League power curves are reversed from your tabletop example. Just swap the labels, move the blue starting position up, and place league's roles accordingly.

Mercuteio8/5/2016, 11:55:00 PM2 votes

Yo CupcakeTrap sorry about blowing up your feed with unrelated stuff. my bad man

Critmaster Garen8/6/2016, 8:16:20 AM2 votes

i think league is way too complex to be reduced to the 3 different power curves you got there.

the main issue is that it only focuses on damage scaling, and maybe defensive scaling. utility scaling craps on this entire idea since it makes a major part of almost all champions power budgets, while its not as easy to quantify.

youd be missing a gigantic factor in your equation to the point that you cant build a reliable model on what you have.

even taking that problem aside for a second, the issues already start with the fact, that scaling isnt bound by classes. adc and mages are by no means the classes that have a weak early game in general, and dont neccessarily have to scale into lategame the hardest.

then i could go on and argue how early game adc exist. Draven Lucian Caitlyn

but these champions dont actually fall off. they usually just dont scale into lategame as hard as some other adc, but still scale cubic.

so in general, id say no. the idea of these power curves is completely useless and can only be made on a champion by champion basis.

plus, its my personal opinion that the entire model of "linear fighters" and "quadratic wizards" is actually pretty shit and not enjoyable for the players. wizards feel almost useless in older dnd versions for the major portion of a campaign while only fighters and rogues take the spotlight early on. and endgame, the wizard might aswell finish the campaign on his own while the other guys feel left out. this model of taking turns leaves out a major portion of the players at all times.

with the 4th edition of dnd, even the game abandoned the idea and made all classes more streamlined and scale the same. and honestly as someone who was playing a rogue in that version those were some of the most fun games ive ever had.

zlumpy8/6/2016, 12:03:05 AM1 votes

Even on supports it isnt always bad to have the support get the "ks" especially if they translate that into power for the team. Is anyone really gonna be mad that a Leona can get tankier faster when she turns that into larger more ballsy plays that boost the whole teams team fight.

Also most ADC only really seem to become useful anymore when either stupid fed or near full build. A slightly ahead Jhin or Jinx is still an incredibly easy target to remove from a fight early game. Whereas yes a slightly ahead draven or vayne will possibly be a nightmare for the enemy but thats because those champs are designed to not need support and out duel pretty much everyone when played right (which is terrible design choice imo but thats a different discusion to be had)

RepresentzOG8/6/2016, 2:39:36 AM1 votes

If your Supports or any other champion kill shots a clean kill over any hard carry you are playing league wrong, prob have always played wrong and don't give a shit how those few kills could've tilted the game your way with item spikes on those carries just keep trucking lil nigz keep truckin.

Aptest8/6/2016, 8:11:34 AM1 votes

the moment you allow a late game assassin to solo kill a later game ADC you deviate from the model.

the "end of an era" point for the assassin VS ADC matchup is when the assassin's full combo becomes less than the ADC's HP bar.

extra damage masteries + big ticket lategame items for assassins meant the curve is broken.