I am curious as to why spellvamp doesn't have ratios limiting its effectiveness on problem cases.

Holy Malevolence·11/18/2014, 11:06:29 PM·11 votes·2,000 views

Imagine, for a second, if AP worked like spellvamp did. Where any ability that was single target, by the nature of being single target, had a 1.0 AP ratio, and every ability that could hit more than one target had a .33 AP ratio.

Vlad would destroy the game. As would any AP champion with a low cooldown single target ability. In response, you'd have to nerf AP to a point where the abusers are just barely kept in line. Thereafter any champion unlucky enough to only have AOE damage in their kits would be basically worthless, as they simply wouldn't have any way to remain relevant in game. Quite simply, everything would be a mess. And, naturally, to prevent this, the game has AP ratios. So that if Vlad, or any given AP champion scales too well with AP, you can nerf that instead of destroying the stat and keep balance throughout the entire game.

But spellvamp is in such a horrible position, wherein it's so powerful on a select few champions that it's all but useless on the rest of the cast. In the past this has caused a ton of difficulty creating spellvamp items, made it impossible to make any decent sources of AD spellvamp, and turned Vladimir into a monster multiple times. The solution, s'far as I see, is simple. Add spellvamp ratios to abilities. So that if ever Vlad becomes too powerful with the stat, you can nerf his spellvamp ratios. And if, say, Orianna is basically useless with it, you can buff hers. And e'er so often I find myself wondering why such a basic change hasn't been implemented yet.

32 Comments

SmokingPuffin11/18/2014, 11:08:05 PM6 votes

I suspect the reason why spellvamp ratios aren't a thing is that it's a lot of added complexity for not much benefit.

When they want spellvampy gameplay, expect it to look more like Ahri passive or Cassiopeia stacks in the future.

TheUndeadFish11/18/2014, 11:50:00 PM5 votes

Yes and now imagine a game where every ap item was spell vamp, and all items with spell vamp are ap instead. All of a sudden now vlad is useless compared to the likes of veigar or anyone with high base spell damage.

You can't cherrypick how you compare apples to oranges op it doesn't work like that. Are you gonna argue next that rage blade is in a horrible position because it's broken on 2 champs but useless on the rest of the cast? All items aren't ment to be bought by everyone like old warmogs, bv, ga, zhonyas ring or other problem items of the past.

Kat Head11/19/2014, 5:08:07 AM2 votes

You are correct op, Spell Vamp is Extremely under powered compared to life steal. It needs buffed to at least be viable on some ap champs. Who builds item 3152 that is not Vladimir ?

Who ? Cassiopeia

A game with tons of mages running around and none of them building the only spell vamp item available item 3152, should tell you what kind of spot spell vamp is actually in.

MEMEME67011/19/2014, 4:33:14 AM2 votes

Here is why making spellvamp good as a stat on any mage is silly.

  1. By nature of mage gameplay, Spellvamp is going to be useless on Burst Mages generally, unless it is extremely OP. If they're low enough for it to be good, they've likely already used their burst rotation and are going to have to wait for it to come back up, and then they have to somehow find someone who they do enough damage to to spellvamp back from.

  2. On the champions it is useful on, (See: Ryze, Cassio, maybe Diana, etc) it will behave mostly like spellvamp with a very important difference. It will be EXTREMELY frustrating to play against if the character has a burst combo.

Imagine Diana has balanced spellvamp, and is dueling you. Everything is going fine until she gets her q and ult back up again, and then she Q's you and double ults, healing for 1/3 of her hp. You have no way to deal with this or predict it except memorizing her cooldowns (with cdr applied).

If your answer to this is to make it so her Q and ult don't heal her noticable amounts, hten you have spellvamp being useless on all but VERY FEW characters, and Riot can put that in the game by way of Ahri//Cass Passive, Ryze ult, etc.

JustMyBassCannon11/19/2014, 6:43:53 AM2 votes

Imagine, for a second, if AP worked like spellvamp did. Where any ability that was single target, by the nature of being single target, had a 1.0 AP ratio, and every ability that could hit more than one target had a .33 AP ratio.

That's almost a more stupid hypothetical thought than, "If you could go back in time..."

Spell Vamp isn't used because, usually, Spell Vamp isn't necessary. There isn't another way to put it; mages don't tend to need in-combat sustain. When they do, they have it innately. When any mage wants to survive, they tend to focus on building defense instead of sustain.

Morbiusman11/19/2014, 4:46:54 AM1 votes

Given that it takes a lot to make a spellvamp champ to work well, namely Morde and Vlad, I think it's in a good place right now. The only character that is rather out of control with it is Akali, but that more about Akali than anything.

ExiledTyrant11/19/2014, 5:16:14 AM1 votes

Riot tried one time to improve spell vamp and all it did was get my favorite champion, Morde, nerfed and his core items trashed. As much as I loved regaining 500+ health in team fights per sec with my aura alone I would rather see spell vamp die. Just give the sustain mages proper sustain tools in their kit ( they need at least that much to begin with), and make ADC pay steeper costs for life steal so it's an actual sacrifice and not just a new toy to take advantage of.

Cindikle11/19/2014, 5:27:40 AM1 votes

Remove spell vamp Add Mana Siphon

This restores HP by a % of mana used. Increases slowly with AP. This is done to prevent it from being strong on non AP's who don't build damage

Champions that build it can be rebalanced.

Desmond Law11/19/2014, 6:36:02 AM1 votes

How about this Spellvamp: X% of spell damage dealt heals you. AoE spells' heals are 1/3 as effective. Applies Mucho Viva debuff on you. Does not stack. Lasts 5 seconds. Refreshes while you are healing through spellvamp. While you have Mucho Viva debuff, your spellvamp will only be half as effective, meaning AoE spells' heals are 1/6 as effective.

This change tones down sustained healing, but does not affect burst healing much.

I named the debuff Mucho Viva in honor of Mordekaiser. huehuehuehue

Knight SoIaire 11/19/2014, 6:39:19 AM1 votes

i think you miss the point spelvamp is not useless becuase the items are bad or the stat could make some ppl strong

spellvamp is not used so often because ap champs rely on burst thus wouldnt make any use of spellvamp look at a guy like brand or syndra, they would get one surge of hp ber fight and little more now compare it to vlad azir and akali, those guy refill their hp throughout the entire fight thus making spellvamp more effective (the surge of hp that burst mages have can be totaly negated by them having full hp already )

so dont blame the stat for not fitting the design of champions lifesteal is usefull because it can be used constantly and ad champs have autoatacks to aply it while spellvamp is reserved for some mages with low cooldown skills

Velasan11/19/2014, 6:55:01 AM1 votes

I think everyone else has basically spelled it out already, but to add clarity to why spellvamp works the way it does.

First, it's not 100% ratio because it is reduced on all AOE spells by a big margin which accounts for a big number of ultimate's and some character basic spells.

Secondly, because life steal is added per attack which you can do all the time at no cost and can reach high damage numbers. Spellvamp by contrast needs a spell to be used (and spells are not on all the time and have CD's) and it needs to be single target for best effect.

If anything spellvamp is a weaker version of lifesteal. I have no idea why you would have a problem with it. If someone gains back a lot of HP from firing off a big spell it's no different than an ADC gaining back that same HP from 3-4 auto attacks and now that spell is on CD.

If you added ratios it might make it stronger, but needlessly complex or too powerful on certain champions. Vlad is already powerful for example as you said and this walks a very fine line.

flibitydoo11/19/2014, 7:27:17 AM1 votes

Spellvamp isn't kept weak because of champions such as Vladimir or Mordekaiser . They don't break spellvamp. There are plenty of other manaless (and mana using) casters that could benefit off of spellvamp much better.

Spellvamp is core on those two because the health costs on their damaging abilities are really high, and the sustain mechanics in their kits aren't good enough to make up for them (for example, the only way mordekaiser regens health in his kit is on a 120-90 second base cooldown which is his ultimate, and vlad's Q has a poor ratio and poor base value for the health restore). They need the spellvamp to make up for a weakness in their kit.

It's basically like how most midlane mages tend to rush athene's. Mana is there to prevent mages from completely destroying the game by spamming their superior-to-autoattack abilities and destroying everyone. There's a reason why in URF mode they gave ranged AD's bonus critical damage and attackspeed. Health is the resource that Vlad and Morde use instead of mana. If they had mana bars, they would probably go for mana regen items just like everyone else. But they don't. That's what makes them unique.

DrakoUnRama11/19/2014, 7:46:05 AM1 votes

Akali <only champion I've ever seen a ridiculous problem with spell vamp on and that's mainly due to her built in spell vamp rather than the items themselves...

Kuroi8611/19/2014, 12:21:03 PM1 votes

Why is spellvamp weak. Because imagine the healing Syndra would get from her ult.

CoolKnightST11/19/2014, 1:00:47 PM1 votes

I think the main problem with spellvamp right now is that they just kept the price low. It was actualy the exact same problem with lifesteal before the changes.

Additionaly, the current spellvamp items are way to offensive while they actualy should provide a defensive alternative to the game.

Just look to item 3146, it's a expensive all-in offensive item. While the alternative is the cheap item 3152 that again is really offensive.

Both items build out item 3145 and this item itself are buildup horrible. I really don't understand what riot was thinking while building this concept.

What I would do is removing item 3145item 3146item 3152 to start with and rebuild the concept compleetly.

Meep Man11/18/2014, 11:09:28 PM1 votes

I agree, but a thing to note, spell vamp on Ziggs is really good. If you use your ultimate around minions or on minions, since it has double damage against them, he can nearly refill his health bar against any wave worth ulting. Even then, minions in a teamfight will refill a lot of his health.

Rebonack11/19/2014, 12:59:59 AM1 votes

This would make Spellvamp itemization far easier to balance and do nothing but good for the health of the game in the long run.

I would say the same of splitting Brutalizer into two items so AD/CDR buildups aren't so stilted in cases where an item shouldn't have armor pen, but that's a topic for another topic.

coltfan0811/19/2014, 3:23:32 AM1 votes

I think you're trying to change something that really doesn't need changing. Lifesteal is a stat that is used very well by most adcs (auto-attackers like cait and vayne) and not so efficiently by others (poke-based casters like corki and lucian). Spellvamp is similar, although the ratio of effectie to less effective is flipped, with most casters using spellvamp inefficiently. Part of this change stems from available itemization - the vast majority of adc builds naturally incorporate lifesteal with either bloodthirster or bork because their other stats are strong, while the vast majority of ap builds focus on raw ap and mpen, which do not come in high amounts with spellvamp items.

 Currently, building spellvamp on most ap carries is decision that has to be made very consciously because there are serious trade-offs to spellvamp items. If I'm playing someone like orianna, who you mentioned as someone who would potentially have their ratios buffed, I will not buy spellvamp unless the ratios are so op I can't avoid buying spellvamp simply because I care about how much damage I am doing and that I can get a strong ultimate. Spellvamp does not help either of these directly, and you can't convince me that its indirect affects outweigh the benefits of ap, pen, and resists.

 Finally, you say that since ap ratios already exist, implementing spellvamp ratios will be a basic change. I disagree strongly. Your goal (I believe) is to make spellvamp more accessible to the majority of ap carries. A major portion of ap carries are heavy aoe, such as ziggs, syndra, and orianna (who I talked about above). How do you determine the changes for these champs? Obviously, since they don't traditionally buy spellvamp, their spellvamp ratios would be buffed to encourage spellvamp usage. But to what degree? These champs deal great amounts of damage already, and even a 50% ratio would give them immense health returns. However, will a 10% increase (or something similar) be enough of a change to shift the item meta without it shifting the meta too far? It's easy to say that these numbers can be worked out through testing on pbe and live, but history shows that ratios (especially the ap ratios that you say logically lead to spellvamp ratios) can take seasons to work out, and even then there is still a question of balance (ap trist has been a controversial champ for quite some time, and there are many off-builds that push the limits of being op, like ap xin 1v1ing turrets). 

Frankly, it seems like a lot of work for a change that doesn't need to be made.

Duke Anax11/19/2014, 4:23:45 AM1 votes

The problem with spellvamp is that it is only either 1.0 or 0.33, nothing in between.

That makes it at the same time too strong and too weak on AoE spells.

I think it would work much better if it didn't scale with spell type, but with targets actually hit.