Maybe nerfing mana on mages isn't wrong.

Felvyne·4/22/2018, 1:36:39 PM·22 votes·8,629 views

I know I'm only a silver/gold player, therefore my game knowledge is lacking at high performance. But I've been thinking about the nerfs since they went on PBE, and I've been scared about them since I'm a mage main too.

But maybe nerfing their mana management isn't wrong. Maybe it's a good thing for the game on long term.

Of course this will low mage's performance by a lot on short term, maybe too much (and I fear this will only let to play a couple of mages and a bunch of ADCs and bruisers). But on the long term this may open the midlane to other rightful options. Why? Because mage waveclear is the "Renekton bar" of the midlane. You can't roam if you don't have a clearly good waveclear, because while you roam you lose two waves and a turret before blinking, or you are just pushed against your tower trying to lasthit helpness while being poked to death and/or losing your turret too.

Only assassins you can play are the ones that have good waveclear to stay on par of mages, the only mages that are played are the ones who clear quick and fast. They don't decide when to expend a good bunch of mana for clear and roam because they saw an opportunity, they just push and they are always ready to go mostly bot (or follow).

This may be a good step for the game. Because competitive isn't only LCS: anyone who plays something on midlane on ranked plays with those rules in mind (except on low elo where everything works, even Rammus mid if you try enough). If not, every mage from right now will be need to be a Taliyah or ASol.

52 Comments

RedEve4/22/2018, 1:40:44 PM21 votes

Most people aren't really mad about the mana changes per say, they're just mad that Mages are getting hit before ADC's.

Glory974/22/2018, 2:24:41 PM11 votes

You are right about that. In the ideal state of the game mages should have to manage mana and don't just shove in waves permanently. But we are so far away from the ideal state of the game. And I think riot should adress all the bigger problemes first. Botlane needs to be fixed, junglers early impact needs to be toned down, and a shield breaking mechanic needs to be introduced that is available for all assassins, not just the tiny bit of irelia passive.

Even though the mana change might be for the better, it will make midlane unenjoyable for the short-term. In short-term this will result in less power from midlane overall, shifting even more game-agency towards botlane.

jocomotion4/22/2018, 3:55:11 PM8 votes

Oh my god?! An open mind!? On LEAGUES discussion Boards!? Are you lost? Who is this person!?

Scary Door4/22/2018, 9:09:01 PM5 votes

As long as they nerf right clicking and give all ADCs/AD champs a resource as well. That only seems fair.

DW Diana4/22/2018, 6:32:11 PM4 votes

The mana changes are just going to mean that every mage that didn't have to before is building both a tear and lost chapter then sitting on them. It won't actually change their waveclear, but slow their first item powerspike. Meanwhile adc's get to buy a BF sword, throw out 1 or two abilities and clear the wave, or if they're oom, just auto each minion a couple of times.

Assassin's have been fine against mages in every elo except pro for ages because they don't care if they lose a wave or two. They can roam, get a couple of kills, and return to lane up a couple of hundred gold over their opponent. Where do they roam? bot lane of course! Which gets your adc ahead, securing a much more likely win. Mages needed good wave clear to counteract this, which is why riot is trying to hurt them, but when you get 15% of your mana returned, and gain 20% of you max mana when you level up, you don't really have mana problems anymore anyway which makes the whole thing pointless imo. Anywho, I'm just going to enjoy a bit of time playing Diana mid with some nice waveclear, burst and roaming until riot nerf her for existing.

Ranmaru4/22/2018, 2:14:09 PM4 votes

mages are the worst class but they need to be nerfed because mages are picked in pro play due to being better then assasins in teamfighting and not really needing to snowbalL!

Teridax684/22/2018, 3:21:42 PM4 votes

My personal take on this is that the problem with mid lane isn't simply waveclear, but the fact that waveclear has become the litmus test for mid in the first place. Assassins have been suffering not simply because they lack waveclear, but because neither them nor mages have been valued for their burst anymore, at least not at the competitive level. This is also why there is such a rift between pro and standard play: in solo queue, or any game with less organized teams, assassins are both present, and often quite dominant mid, because they still have the power to assassinate marksmen. However, in pro play, marksmen have such an excessive degree of protection that neither mages nor assassins can kill them properly. Because of this, mid laners are relegated to other duties, namely waveclear and CC/utility: since assassins tend to be hyper-specialized towards single-target burst, whereas mages have CC and AoE on the side, there is effectively little assassins reliably contribute in pro play, which is why they're not as present mid. As such, the supposed excessive waveclear of mages (which, by the way, is still behind the manaless waveclear of marksmen) feels like a scapegoat to avoid addressing the real issue, which is the excessive safety of marksmen in organized play. Because of this, mages are effectively getting punished for the sins of another class, and so in a manner that is unlikely to solve the actual issue with mid lane.

What also annoys me about the mana changes is that the implementation conflicts with the stated goal. If the intent is for mages to be less good at waveclearing, then the natural solution to that should be to directly nerf their waveclear abilities, either by increasing their cost, or by reducing their damage or safety against minion waves. However, when a champion gets the entirety of their mana nerfed, with no compensatory changes to their costs, they become less effective at casting all of their spells, including abilities that have nothing to do with waveclear. Mages are therefore getting nerfed across the board, even though they're supposedly only meant to have just one aspect of their playstyle toned down. It's also worth adding that Lux, perhaps the mage most infamous for her safe waveclear, and Ryze, a mage who's dominated pro play for years, are the only mages to receive changes to their costs that would make their waveclear easier, thereby putting their own changes in direct contradiction with Riot's stated goals.

Finally, my other problem with this set of changes, which others have mentioned, is that it precedes changes to bot lane. We're being told that mages are being nerfed because "no class should be dominant in a lane for years", yet marksmen have been the only truly viable option in bot lane, and have been mandatory since League started developing a competitive scene. We're getting serious, targeted nerfs to mages, but only vague, wishy-washy talk about "opening up bot lane" to more classes, with no concrete explanation on how that's going to be achieved. Moreover, if the update is to actually succeed, then it should target the overbearing amount of protection carries, and especially marksmen can receive, which should itself naturally bring assassins back to mid lane in pro play. Effectively, both the timing and the ordering to these mage nerfs are completely wrong, and are likely to age like milk the moment the bot lane update comes along, thereby leaving mages in a terrible state for much longer, when waiting until after the mid-season update could likely just be enough to address the reason for their nerfs.

wildfox994/22/2018, 7:42:40 PM3 votes

they are doing it in the wrong way

instead of nerfing mana sustain items like item 3003 and item 3802 (i mean real nerfs,lost champer now is just less cheaper but actually its passive got buffed) they are nerfing their base mana pool so they rely even more on those items,basically forcing them into an item 3003 meta

Ifneth4/22/2018, 6:34:58 PM3 votes

But Riot isn’t nerfing the early game of mages. They’re getting more mana early because Doran’s Ring will grant +5 mana per second. Their mid-game mana is being nerfed to keep them from spamming spells like they have blue buff just because they bought a Tear or Lost Chapter. This change should let mana-gated assassins have a chance to at least match their push and roam to other lanes.

Dead flag blues4/22/2018, 3:36:17 PM2 votes

I wouldn't be mad if mages actually dealt more damage with their skillshot, having the same range as adc. But no, it's not the case, you miss your skillshot and you're dead because the guy deals twice your damage by clicking on you.

And when a burst mage is allowed to burst down people, he's insta-gutted. Syndra became a trollpick Zoe got nerfed to oblivion Leblanc people are already bitching "omg she assassinated me let me right click she's isn't allowed" Azir futur nerfs destroying the champion

Malix Farwin4/22/2018, 3:40:34 PM2 votes

The main premise of the change is what i don't like. They mainly want to do this change to bring Assassins back however even if Mages are weaker than Assassins, Mages will still be more useful in team fights so you are still going to see them dominating. Their targets simply get peeled too hard and are not as squishy as they used to be.

Villainous V4/23/2018, 1:02:21 AM2 votes

I think the mage changes are good. Let's be honest mana on mages is broken right now. Playing veigar, if I back and get a tear first item, I can easily shove a decent amount of champions into tower without loosing half my mana.

5050BS4/24/2018, 2:29:59 AM1 votes

Im fine with the nerf to mana as long as AP champs get % AP added to auto attacks like they do to turrets. Mages have to use spells to CS. If we only use Auto attacks saving the mana for attacking the laner or def vs a gank then we will be shoved under turret 100% of the time.

xelaker4/22/2018, 4:04:04 PM1 votes

{quoted}

I know I'm only a silver/gold player, therefore my game knowledge is lacking at high performance.

rank doesn't mean you can't make a point. that's just something people try and use to get rid of opinions they don't like. it's like the left calling everyone a nazi here in the US

Rıots Bad Client4/22/2018, 5:04:13 PM1 votes

What if... This patch was more directed towards Aram.

[sg-ezreal]

Devilreaper XIII4/22/2018, 6:15:36 PM1 votes

the solution is going full ad, i noticed in the post game graphs that mages that scale ap do more damage building full ad O.o

RogueWill4/22/2018, 6:18:08 PM1 votes

Diana is going to be left on the dust. She already struggle waveclearing without dipping too much into her mana pool

Modl Ryden l4/23/2018, 3:10:48 AM1 votes

idk what the big deal is tbh. Tear is almost found in all mage builds with these recent changes.