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Is it possible for a League of Legends where all champions have an actual place in the meta?

ThePaperlucky··29 votes·1,795 views

Despite our current pool of 133 (?) champions, most are focibly pushed into the ideal images for roles and archetypes, leading to a roster of mainly flavour without actual diversity. Champions tend to be the same, with minor gameplay differences that equate to zero strategic values within their specific roles.

The result? For soloq, the thought process behind picking a champion basically boiled down to preferences. People don't pick Jinx over Twitch in soloq because of strategy, they picked her purely beause of they prefer her playstyle. Meanwhile, pro plays see little wiggle room, as the meta picks outshadow everyone else. Why would one pick TF, when Taliyah can also do a better job at both waveclear and roaming?

Why is this the case though? Is it purely because of bad balancing, or is it design flaws?

49 Comments

Kai Guy14 votes

No. Its a huge mistake to think that there is a "meta" applicable to all elos. For example, TF vs Talia, A player is trash at skillshots, TF is the better pick. Only has to deal with Q, can cast Q after the gold card where its easy to land and will consistently out play a Talia who consistently wiffes with her QWER's

The problem with diversity is that as a community theres a real bias to copy and paste what ever the top 0.01% play at. as if some how the rest of the player base can imitate their mechanics, communicate and cooperate with the same synergy.

Volibear is a fairly straightforward champion but his skill cap is so low that after a point there's no discernible difference in player skill, which makes him fall off in higher elos as other champions whos best case out class him. Its not bad for the game to have champions of variable diversity, but there's no healthy way to enforce 100% viability across all MMR's.

0racle09122 votes

I agree completely. Things shift so much between ranks and that's something I love about ranked, it's constantly changing your playstyle to climb. I don't like all of this hate recently towards the meta and riot in general. I'm in no way sucking up to riot or standing on any side of these arguments, as I believe both sides have valid points. Anyways, if people hate this game so much and complain about so much, don't play it. Adapt to how things are, make reasonable suggestions when needed, and be creative to always look for counters - yes it may be hard at times, but it can be done. I don't like the negativity at all towards the game, it's meant for fun and reading all of the negative posts here is really taking away from the experience tbh. Downvote, call me a noob idc, but I think people need to chill with all the negativity

ThePaperlucky1 votes

But if that's the case, is the only reason we have TF is because of lower Elo? Consistency might be something that can be used to differentiate them, but with the way they are designed currently, TF is reserved for lower skill brackets, while Tali dominated the top. In all honesty, it's design that makes it like this. Why make a champion that's the same as another in term of functionality, just only easier to play? If most of the community copied higher Elo, then shouldn't we balance higher more? Of course, not to say we should neglect lower. Many people says the problem is that many champs will become oppressive at lower brackets, which is realistic. However, that also shows a huge design flaw. Some champions are doomed to be lower tier because of their easier kits. These kits tend to have more reliability, which in turns hold back their power.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

You have 133 champions. How would you make it so every champion is 100% unique with no similarities to anyone else?

HaIlMonitor1 votes

This idea is basically the flaw of LOL. We have basiclly 5 truely unique champs at what they do like Yorick Kalista .

But then the other 128 are not unique so it comes down to things like

Zed vs Talon Tristana vs KogMaw Diana vsEkko Blitzcrank vsThresh

Where yes they might not be 100% the same, but in general one of the two is being played. For example if thresh gets lots of nerfs Blitz sees way more play, or vice versa. They cant really have everyone be unique because someone will abuse something better then the next guy.

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Even if their kits are unique, their roles are not. You have yorrick who is lane bully split pusher which is identical to the role garen irelia, teemo have, and kalista is kite adc which matches Ashe ezreal and vayne

Kai Guy1 votes

First lets disregard that TF sees more play in plat + with a higher win rate then Taliyah. Simplistic and reliability does usually hold back champion power, but at the same time its also a huge strength. Its only an issue when the skill cap is so low that its really noticeable when you hit their max mechanical level and the gap between that and other champions is to high (I'm calling you out Volibear ) We have simple and reliable champions like Soraka andSona Annie who do just fine across every elo. A simple champion or complex champion who fill the same job will have little differences scattered throughout their kit, and as a player you want to know when those diffrances matter, 2 burst mages 1 has higher best case usage but requires more time or setup, great in a comp your teams damage is a little lower due to picks, Terrible in a game the enemy comp is highly disruptive. There is a trade off to be made in picking a reliable champ or a better best case worst case champion. Like they say you will want the right tools for the job.

Moving onto viability, Its ok for some champions to not be viable across all elos, as long as the vast majority enjoy multiple elo spans. The thing about pro play metas is that we are looking to some 0.01% of the player base who are so mechanically talented that the meta for them tends to be a race for efficiency. I wont claim to follow the pro Sean super well but has there ever been a Korean pro team that did not follow the "Korean meta" that made it into worlds? Also why in the hell do folks think pros get there by their champion picks rather then their mechanics and skill as players. How many times have you see a salty salty teammate because your builds not the pros build, your not following whats meta... and your doing better then they are and have had way more impact on the game. Pet peeve of mine.

EkyonKun5 votes

Hmm yes and no. Could everyone be VIABLE? Absolutely. Could everyone be META? Unfortunately no. This is due to one thing. Who defines the meta. See, if someone has high success with a champion, people naturally flock to it. Remember support MF? Remember how even without nerfs, people quickly stopped doing it? They only stopped when they realized they couldn't make it work too well. So why did they start? Because a pro did it. It really doesn't matter how equal and balanced everyone is, if certain champs see the spotlight, that's what people will turn their heads to. Just my opinion, anyone can feel free to disagree, but that's just what I think.

Primaquarius4 votes

Design flaws probably, since champions are added faster than older ones are adjusted, which means each new addition can inadvertently make an older pick useless purely because of the changing metas

GreatWhiteNorth4 votes

Yes.

But anytime a champion with a unique kit becomes viable, people cry until it gets nerfed into the ground. Then they just claim it is a useless champ.

See: Old Urgot Teemo Anivia Singed Nasus

All of these champions have kits that require thinking outside of the normal ways of league. I considered adding Kayne and Rek'Sai to the list, but there are two of them.

Yasuo also does not qualify. His wall is unique but doesn't really add thought to his own gameplay; it rather takes away from it especially with the low cooldowns on his other abilities. Yasuo's passive takes away the need to think for the enemy it's all just trigger, position, damage, trigger....the low cooldowns turn playing against him into endless repetition only interrupted (moderately) by ganks.

Ichi Ni San1 votes

fair points made, wish he had a reasonable place in this game

Kai Guy3 votes

Lets look at melee Damage carrys who did/do well and how the community feels about them. Fiora (rework release) Yasuo MasterYi Riven Jayce Tryndamere Camille or even Mordekaiser for the few moments he was decimating botlane.

Don't want ranged adcs, don't want melee adcs, mind as well just remove autos to please everybody. That wouldn't feel terrible at all right?

Rebonack4 votes

Yes.

It was called Dominion.

Well, okay, not ALL the champions. Thresh was absolute garbage there.

Ahris3 votes

There was this one point in season 5 where almost any champ was useable. But Riot had to nerf and force the meta to become boring because LC$

It Hertz When IP3 votes

No. There's simply too many champions. You can get close, with different champion types in a role being very close in terms of performance, but just due to the nature of a balance system with so many levers, at any given time some champions will just be slightly stronger than their role counterparts. That's just how it is. LCS makes this situation worse by financially incentivizing skilled, knowledgeable players to highlight for the entire playerbase what those stronger picks are. Since people want to win, they often opt for those champions since the champions represent a definitive (however small) advantage.

That's why off-meta picks aren't guaranteed to fail; non-meta doesn't mean useless, it just (usually) means "slight disadvantage compared to counterparts in that role". The slightness of that disadvantage means that your individual skill and/or playstyle could affect your performance far more, meaning that an off-meta pick would work better for you. Great with timing? Take Nami. Not very good with skillshots but good at resource management? Take Sona. Have no skill at skillshots, playing supports, or LoL in general? Pick Janna. In this example, Sona might not be as "meta" as Nami, but if you are horrible at getting additional bounces with Nami W to the point of only rarely getting a second bounce, Sona would give you better results per mana expended.

ThePaperlucky1 votes

Then why are we having more champions when the pool needs balancing? Riot is constantly adding more variables to an equation that they have yet to solve. The result is that we have a large pool that really isnt that diverse, comsidering they need to keep uniqueness low in order to get out more champs. For? Profit most likely. Can't blame them though, they dont have a second source of income aside from leaguE. Slight disadvantage is only applicable in low elo, where players cant play their champ to the fullest. In higher elo, unless you're one tricking a champ, meta champs provides alot more than others. That's why Sona is low tier for life, considering she lacks anything that make her deemed strategically useful comparing to Nami or Janna, aside from a kit that leans toward lower brackets. Haiz, a dream stays a dream i guess.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

shrugs Given that the overwhelming majority of LoL players are Silver or lower ("low elo"), I'm not too concerned. At the end of the day every game is numbers, and no matter how well you balance, there will always be some level of number differences; get good enough at a game and you care about them, but for most of us, those differences aren't make-or-break material.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Then why are we having more champions when the pool needs balancing?

$$$$$$$$$$$

From what I understand is it often requires just as much of an investment to do something like the WW, Galio, or Eve update as a new champ. The difference is How old is WW? Most people probably have skins, have the champ, and will only play him for a tad. But when they make someone like kayn that is very popular people by bundles, and probably even skins depending how cool the next one is right away (mecha would have been sick because I am a huge gundam fan)

Edge of Daybreak2 votes

Not until this balance team is replaced with one that is attempting to reach that point otherwise it's favoritism and skin based buffs all the way.

The Deckowner2 votes

Rito has a hard on for adc, as long as adc exist in the game(which is like the smallest pool of champion out of any role) the meta will only be revolving around adc.

Kai Guy2 votes

Holy cow, Your telling me that in an item biased moba the class that's designed to be the item reliant carry is pivotal to the meta? I'm.... really not surprised as a dude who has played mobas for years before Lol ever existed.

Succubús GF2 votes

You mean a game with 130+ champions should have games solely determined on one class? Wow 10/10 logic there! 100% great moba. By the way, a list of mobas where that happens would be lovely because in smite marksmen aren't at all hyper carries

Kai Guy1 votes

The time period I listed was referring to Dota Allstars, as well as the various knockoffs on wc3 custom games. I have given Heros of new erth, Dota2, Hos, Gigantic a go as well. I cant speak for smite from a game play experience but their site provides this 2:59 "Carry, building items that make your god extremely effective late game with the ability to deal tremendous damage or kill key enemy's so they can effectively carry their team to victory this also implies low defensive and a reliance on your tanks and supports because you will be a primary target for the enemy team." Does that sound on paper like anything in league?

Regardless the point I really wanted to make and I think my sarcasm got in the way of this, is that the games more balanced around Roles and comp, Its silly to dismiss the class built to fill the role of mid-late game dps in a game where your comp will consistently need mid-late game dps.

Flawless Fetus2 votes

I don't think so. Not for league. Not trying to suck DoTA's dick, but it'd work better there. Many of their champs are more niche, and it's more around 'who do we need for what', whereas in league it's more like 'who is the best at what'. Because none of leagues champs are really "niche", most people end up playing the "best" tanks/adcs/mages/etc. In a world where there are always a handful of "best" champs, instead of niche champs, everyone being viable cannot be achieved.

Cowseed2 votes

Doubt it. Between YouTube and meta sheep that isn't happening anytime soon because it's a smaller portion of the community willing to experiment on their own and play things that aren't deemed OP or broken.

JackMcSnipeyz2 votes

Nope, no matter how hard you try people will always flock to the easiest strongest champs, then a meta is formed, when a meta is formed some champs will be left out (not unviable but left out). When a champ is left out the community labels him "unviable".

This will always happen, there are too many levers to pull, from individual skill to champ kit to team comps to items, maps, objectives etc etc etc...

Every champ is viable, but not all are equal this will always be the case in EVERY pvp game.

ThePaperlucky1 votes

I completely agree that its impossible to make everyone EQUAL. But right now, many champions are completely marginalized because they arent meta. Sure, one can pick them if one prefer their playstyle, but against competent players with those meta picks, that pick offers less advantage. Unless, its silver or below, which 75% of the community is in. Which makes it pointless to even balance that way...

Paroe1 votes

No. Unless riot rebuilds the game from the ground up, there will ALWAYS be a riot-directed meta consisting of "limelight" champions who are allowed to be strong and "dumpster" champions who, by way of compound nerfs, will always be weak.

When riot nerfs a champion on an item, and then nerfs the item without buffing a champion nerfed because of it its a compound nerf. In most cases, the champion actually RELIED on that item to function.

Bewitching Zoe1 votes

Sure remove flash gut tank damage ratios and remove the percent penetration items and add counter crit items and more ap options.

Snowplosion1 votes

With a roster so big I don't think it is possible to create a complete inclusive meta.

ThePaperlucky1 votes

We're not aiming for unrealistic balancing, like everyone has the same win rate though. The goal is that even though there are meta picks, other champions don't get marginalized completely. They might not be picked as often, but at least they are considered in some situation.

Snowplosion1 votes

I don't think with a roster as large as it is that no champions will be completely overpowered or completely garbage at a time.

zaire901 votes

If they balanced the game around the pro scene then yeah everyone would be viable

Jet Sett1 votes

Yes, but it'd require the introduction of even more hard counters to facilitate the diversity people want and hard counters are pretty unfun most of the time. Think of any assassin vs a squishy mage but the assassin gets a free Hexdrinker at level 1 and you'd have a pretty good idea of just how much some champs would need to shit on/get shit on by others in order to be fully inclusive.

Then you have to differentiate the champions a little more to give them clear cut roles in their team so that you pick champions based on what your team wishes to accomplish. You can already do this, but some champions are just lackluster in comparison to others when it comes to this without more power at a specific point in the game, essentially making them a bad pick because of it.

ThePaperlucky1 votes

When hard counter becomes too much, isn't that a balancing problem? A hard counter should be designed to counter a specific part of a champion, not the entire thing. We don't have to force it. In fact, most of league champions kit are too generic to be made into hard counters of another without breaking the game. I don't see any problem with differentiating champions, aside from raising the game skill requirement up quite a bit (which is something riot hates). Why should we have 2 champions that are indentical in goals accomplished and functions, with only skill shots shape as their differences? It really makes the 133 seems exaggerated, when most only have different skill shots to make they look unique.

RookPusher1 votes

If I can assume the way you're suggesting "meta" then the answer is no. The meta is essentially the champs with the most consistent performance. I'm glad that changes, but I'm not convinced this is bad. Those champs with consistent performance are still countered by off-meta champs.

The balance then becomes which is better, potential gaps in play, or hard-countering the laning phase. I see Kat picked a lot because she can roam, she gets fed, and she carries. I do not see Heim picked a lot. But a wise Heimerdinger will eat Kat for lunch. He's not meta, but it doesn't matter.

To me, this game is about looking at the problems on the ground and adjusting accordingly. Did their Yas get fed? Congrats, you're running a guerrilla campaign against their base and baiting him to throw. That's more fun to me than sticking to the plan and winning. Investing a solution from your problem is why I'm here and not still throwing bails of money at Blizzard.

ThePaperlucky1 votes

A good Kat can make it impossible to land a stun as heim, so they don't really counter each other. In fact, if the entire game is like this, then shouldn't it be more balance? Since all champions can be pick? But that's not the case. The ones that aren't meta are completely push away because they are just plain... weaker. Sticking to a plan rigidly is definitely going to lose you game. But going into a game with absolutely no goals shouldn't be a winning strat. Team should be adapting their plan along the way if they wished to win, and that's to me is both fun and interesting. For example, my team original plan is to siege with 4-1, so we picked out champs good for it. However, their top lamer got a few kills, which made the 4-1 harder to execute. So, we instead play as 5 man, and try to bait out their tp... etc A balanced pool would allowed us more options to use in this situation. A champion might not be meta, but it still has a place in strategies, and not completely trash tier.

Elsewise1 votes

Short answer is no.

Kaìju1 votes

I see it more as, every champion should have a lot that works. It's impossible for everyone to be meta at once, but champions with poor kits are never meta. Examples would be Voli and Skarner. They struggle light hell with their kits and so even when they should be good they aren't. While not every champ can he strong at once, I think making all champions viable at all is a very good place to start.

Colgate Gator1 votes

There will always be tiers in a game's characters, and with that, it means some Champions/Roles will be bottom tier.

This isn't isolated to League, it's said that Street Fighter 1 was the only true balanced game, because both players could only play as Ryu/Ken (before they actually had differences). Any game that has a rooster of characters with different traits will always have some imbalance, which is only further accentuated by this game's huge gallery.

Ebolol1 votes

In a perfect world this would be ideal, but when it comes down to it it's not so simple, especially when pro play is factored in. I think that Riot should make the meta more broad than 3-4 champs per lane + niche picks, but overall the easiest way to manage a game with 130+ champions is to just move the spotlight around. If you want me to elaborate further on parts I can.

Plus, to be fair, where are all our memes going to come from if urgot and yorick get buffed into relevance?

bàn1 votes

There's just too many champions

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Possibly but unlikely; there's been times were the majority have been viable, but there's always some handful that struggles to be relevant for a variety of reasons.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

It's hard with the constant changes. Riot has embraced game with a constantly changing meta, and it's really hard to pin every champion to a particular skill set when the meta is constantly changing.

It's my personal opinion that this has been getting better all the time. Yorick and Warwick reworks are probably some of the best examples of this: they are now both played some without really being considered popular. I don't know what the limit of that is; I doubt we'll ever reach a place where all champs are equally viable. But I do think we'll see a time when all champs have a place in the game, with definite times that they are a good pick.

It's a slow move, of course. Let's get real, Riot didn't even really understand their own game for at least 2-3 seasons, imo. But I think they've started to figure out what League is and what League can be, and that is bearing out in their recent design decisions. I'm excited for the next couple years of this; to me, new runes is proof that they aren't afraid to innovate based on what they've learned in the past 7 years, and that's going to keep the game healthy for awhile.

PaffWasTaken1 votes

All champs balanced to be all meta and balanaced? Quite possible I would say for the game

Doing so while Riot takes care of the balancing? No f*cking way

MetalGearTeemo1 votes

If you want a game that is designed so even the bench warmers have something they're best at and a niche then play Dota.

You play league for animu, and 30 viable champions at any given time so the pros don't have the expand their skillset.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yes, but balance team refuses to try and instead push against it.

Teridax681 votes

For any given meta, no, not every champion should be equally valuable. One of the defining characteristics of any meta is that certain characteristics are featured over others, which means that champions with those assets will become more popular, and champions without them less so.

However, to a larger degree, every champion in League should be viable in a certain meta, and that meta should have a reasonable chance of evolving spontaneously from another, without requiring any changes from Riot. We're obviously very far from this ideal still, but that's the general idea. In a balanced League, for example, the answer to the current hypercarry-centric meta should be assassins, burst mages, and other anti-hypercarry champions, which would then spawn a meta of anti-burst champions like tanks and fighters, which could then lead to a kite-heavy meta, and so on, and in each of those metas different champions would rise to the forefront.

Aside from balance problems, however, the current main issue preventing every champion from having a place is that many champions are still competing for the same niche. Marksmen are the clearest example of this, as they all often contribute the same thing (i.e. raw autoattacking power), so the difference tends to boil down to whoever is statistically stronger than the other. Besides that, there are still quite a few divers, tanks, mages, and assassins that tend to do many of the same things, and who need to have their own niche carved out better. Aside from a handful of do-everything champions, supports tend to be pretty diverse and good at their own individual things, as long as they're not overshadowed by their own itemization. Effectively, in order for every champion in League to have their own place in the game, they all need their own niche, which means quite a few champions need to be differentiated more.

As for the TF versus Taliyah comparison, I think it's actually a pretty good demonstration of how the two champions have really different, distinct niches that afford them good spots in different metas and comps. Taliyah has better roaming and waveclear, but TF has significantly better gank potential and global utility, so the two really do shine in their respective areas. If you want a roam-centric utility mage who can cut off escapes while your allies supplement damage, Taliyah is definitely the superior choice, but if you need more damage in the mid lane, yet still want a champion who can provide vision and snap-gank a lane for a kill, TF works far better.

Jaspers1 votes

While I don't think it's ever possible to have a meta where all champs are included, I would like to see a meta which makes picking certain champs makes sense instead of being treated like some kind of joke to LCS Casters.

... basically, this guy: Heimerdinger

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