Boards›Gameplay

Double Standard?

Kale Bot·1/23/2016, 9:47:02 PM·7 votes·959 views

I'm a bit unsure why there's a double standard (per se) that champions meant to be AP Mages mid are allowed to support while supports that become strong AP midlaners are nerfed.

AP Mages Mid that are supporting: Zyra, Morgana, Brand, Annie, Vel'Koz, Anivia (a little?), Kennen, LeBlanc (past), Veigar (a little?) Supports that have been nerfed for being good mids (and tops) in the past: Soraka, Nunu, Karma, Janna, Lulu, Sona, Alistar, Taric

What is the whole stigma against Supports being able to be played in multiple roles? Sure, if they get overly strong like Lulu did in one season then, yes, nerf it, but don't force these champions into one role just because they can actually perform in another. Supports are extremely strong early game with high base damages but trust me, they fall off. It's not that hard to break even in lane with them. The game needs more versatility! I tend to think that I'm a pretty reasonable person, but I just don't understand the double standard that currently exists. I'm well aware that when Brand and Annie and Zyra and those other champs began to go bot, the only nerfs that they could receive to balance them would kill their middle lane gameplay too. However, what Riot is doing is the exact same thing but backwards with Supports. They're killing their middle lane potential to keep them as supports.

I think you understand what I'm trying to express. Thoughts?

Edit: My argument is that in our current state of the game, many champions that are primarily supports are capable of going mid with slight AP ratio tweaks (or something like that) that would hardly affect their support gameplay. I agree that in the past, certain supports' kits were overloaded for solo lanes. Now, we are in the present.

19 Comments

Mayor Stubbs1/23/2016, 9:55:08 PM2 votes

I imagine it has something to do with supports kits being more difficult to balance than typical mid laners.

Most of the time a support has been viable in other roles they have been ridiculously strong in a way that wasnt intended. (see the old Soraka mid, or Ali top which were nerfed pretty quickly)

But to answer your question more directly: I really don't know, it would be cool to see supports viable elsewhere the same way mages are viable bot lane.

blfUvZ8Ybu1/23/2016, 9:55:58 PM1 votes

Only this isn't.Double standard;Ahri,Lux,Diana %53-%54 win rate but Azir %42.5-%43 win rate.Double standard is this but I agree you.You're right.Double standard isn't a problem for Riot.

qetzel1/23/2016, 10:19:51 PM1 votes

I think better to look at the reason for whatever nerfs there are rather than the fact there were nerfs.

Soraka, Nunu, Karma, Janna, Lulu, Sona, Alistar, Taric

Soraka was a little bit bull in the midlane. There was little counterplay when she was played right - she pushed the wave without interaction, won trades through her sustain and could escape jungle ganks with a quick silence. It also was not interactive. Soraka pushed and then went back to her tower, waiting for teamfights where her ramping AOE and healing would win the game.

I wasn't around for the Nunu or Karma nerfs, and have not heard anything about them, so cannot comment.

While I was not around for Janna, I have heard that all she did was Q a minion wave a couple of times while shrugging off harass with her shield. She didn't play against the enemy mid laner. It was not interactive.

Lulu was nerfed because of her solo lane, but was kept viable there. Look at any professional game or champion.gg. While her support took a hit, you have to balance around the strongest position - they even tried to lower her minion damage to save her support.

I don't remember Sona being nerfed for her mid lane...

Alistar was nerfed for his top lane because he was, again, not interactive (noticing a pattern?). He could headbut opponents back and get a free (actually free, costing nothing - it was during the head butt knock back, so there was no response) Sheen/Shiv empowered AA.

Taric.. Dunno. I do remember an astonishingly high win rate, but I wasn't serious about balance changes back then.

Now lets take a look at the mid lane champions that you mentioned.

Zyra, Morgana, Brand, Annie, Vel'Koz, Anivia (a little?), Kennen, LeBlanc (past), Veigar (a little?)

Zyra and Annie received fairly sizable nerfs because of their supporting. Veigar was almost certainly changed because of his supporting - it highlighted how strong his E really was. I'll give you Brand - although only because I hate playing against him, but the others aren't actually unhealthy in the bot lane. They provide interaction and have sufficient counterplay.

Thinking about other champions, Morgana was nerfed fairly recently - the reason given was that she should not be allowed to waveclear with her W and then chance dark bindings under tower. Why? It was not interactive.

tl;dr Riot does nerf support champions out of solo lanes, but for valid reasons that do not apply to mages in the bot lane. There is therefore no double standard.

Joe Dredd1/23/2016, 11:24:15 PM1 votes

Supports are a designed to be effective with low gold. when they are oppressive with average gold then they need nerfs.

math crab1/23/2016, 11:31:32 PM1 votes

all supports in all moba games are either broken or useless, because they're characters that have to be able to turn the tide of fights without needing a gold or experience advantage league's problem is that, because- unlike dota- you can buy AP and directly buff your spells, there is no practical distinction whatsoever between a support and a mage this is an unfixable problem as long as supports and AP mids scale off of the same thing