Mages and Balance

Shirotaki·Feb 2, 2020·4 votes·1,103 views

Since the early days, Riot has changed League of Legends much. So much so that there isn't much of a reason to balance mages by cooldowns and mana costs alone anymore.

In the past, cooldowns and mana costs ensured that the entire class of mages, who then had a lot of reliable point-and-click damage, wouldn't be overpowered compared to the rest of the champion pool.

Now mages are balanced because most of their abilities are extremely dodgeable. Today, many mages are slightly weak in the early game against high DPS champions. Well-played marksmen can push most any champion out of lane, and mages are no exception. Tankier targets who can survive a mage's initial burst also present problems.

In no special order whatsoever, here are mages I believe could use some buffs which would not make them overpowered by any means.

Anivia - R width, R leash range. -Makes Anivia a better Area of Denial mage.

Malzahar - W reliability, R damage. -W is extremely useless. R base damage is very low for a channeled ability.

Azir - Q cooldown. -Soldiers are too immobile.

Lux - E width, R width. -Abilities are too easy to dodge for their mana and cooldown cost.

Brand - Passive scaling. -Not enough scaling with deathcap.

Karthus - R damage. -Iconic ultimate has barely any damage.

Kennen - W damage. -Kennen's waveclear is low compared to other mages.

Morgana - R 2nd activation scaling. -For an ultimate that places Morgana into grave danger there isn't a high enough reward mid and lategame.

Nidalee - Q width. -To bring back old Nidalee poke-siege comps. Even Faker misses this.

Veigar - E activation delay. -Delay is extremely long.

Vel'Koz - E activation delay. -Delay is long.

Xerath - Q width. -Q is too easy to dodge.

Zyra - Q base damage. -Q base damage is too low.

None of these buffs would make the mages overpowered, but they would be much more satisfying to play.

21 Comments

HideSideFeb 2, 20203 votes

No pls, no buffs for mages like Ahri Anivia Azir Cassiopeia Diana Heimerdinger Karthus Kennen Leblanc Lux Malzahar Morgana Orianna Ryze Sylas Veigar Velkoz Viktor Ziggs

HighwiseeneFeb 2, 20203 votes

Most of these buffs remove the counterplay from the mages in question. Let's not.

vgamedudeFeb 2, 20203 votes

{quoted}

Most of these buffs remove the counterplay from the mages in question. Let's not.

"counterplay"

my favorite buzzword. So if you make mages more reliable, like I dunno, adcs. They don't have counterplay? What does that say for adcs?

SweedishGunnerFeb 2, 20201 votes

The thread is about mage balance, not ADC balance.

If ADC's are broken you nerf ADC's. You don't break more mages.

vgamedudeFeb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted}

The thread is about mage balance, not ADC balance.

If ADC's are broken you nerf ADC's. You don't break more mages.

Read the op. one of his points is literally ranged auto attacks and he mentions marksmen. I'm tired of marksmen getting free passes while people whinge over "counterplay" on every single other role.

Why is the onus always on everyone else to hit their abilities when one else only has to dodge? Meanwhile the person that has to hit the abilities must do both.

HideSideFeb 2, 20202 votes

{quoted}

"counterplay"

my favorite buzzword. So if you make mages more reliable, like I dunno, adcs. They don't have counterplay? What does that say for adcs?

That the only thing keeping them in check is their "unreliability".

vgamedudeFeb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted}

That the only thing keeping them in check is their "unreliability".

And yet the role that is required in every game essentially doesn't have this unreliability yet the same criticisms of counterplay aren't levied against it?

HighwiseeneFeb 2, 20201 votes

ADCs can't do things on their own. They have to position well and are reliant on engages from other champions to do anything. Almost every class of champion can just flat out beat adcs at most stages of the game 1v1. They also can't play proactively in lane, since they are even weaker in lane, having to play almost exclusively in reaction to how both supports and junglers/midlaners play. Think about it this way- can an ashe ever just walk up to and auto attack a syndra without being oneshot? No. Their below average base stats and AA range being less than most assassin/dive engage ranges or mage ranges are large parts to their counterplay. But, to answer your question- Dive and capitalizing on positioning mistakes.

Poke mages are something unique. They are able to create plays on their own(most poke mages can one rotation you once they get items), and can self peel through their various forms of cc + zhonyas. They also don't even have to rely on this self peel anywhere near as much since their range is much, much, much larger. They can also play proactively in lane through poke. Their numbers are high, one vel Q/xerath Q can do 1/3 of your HP with luden's mid-lategame. However, their damage is gated behind the fact that you can avoid this poke. If you can no longer avoid it, the champion's effective dps rises to unacceptable levels. The champions will do more damage on average with these changes than if you just buffed their poke spells by 100 damage at max rank.

That's just for the poke mages listed, there's a whole lot else to be said for the other changes. For example, veigar's weakness is early game into mobile assassins, and that e change cuts down on the number of champions who can deal with him early down, kennen's is literally an intended weakness so he can't just shove you in and stunlock you under tower if you're melee, brand's low scaling accounts for him being a lane bully, etc, etc.

Mages are also my most played class, my 3 most played champs are ahri, lux, and neeko, so i'm not some mage hater.

vgamedudeFeb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted}

ADCs can't do things on their own. They have to position well and are reliant on engages from other champions to do anything. Almost every class of champion can just flat out beat adcs at most stages of the game 1v1. They also can't play proactively in lane, since they are even weaker in lane, having to play almost exclusively in reaction to how both supports and junglers/midlaners play. Think about it this way- can an ashe ever just walk up to and auto attack a syndra without being oneshot? No. Their below average base stats and AA range being less than most assassin/dive engage ranges or mage ranges are large parts to their counterplay. But, to answer your question- Dive and capitalizing on positioning mistakes.

Poke mages are something unique. They are able to create plays on their own(most poke mages can one rotation you once they get items), and can self peel through their various forms of cc + zhonyas. They also don't even have to rely on this self peel anywhere near as much since their range is much, much, much larger. They can also play proactively in lane through poke. Their numbers are high, one vel Q/xerath Q can do 1/3 of your HP with luden's mid-lategame. However, their damage is gated behind the fact that you can avoid this poke. If you can no longer avoid it, the champion's effective dps rises to unacceptable levels. The champions will do more damage on average with these changes than if you just buffed their poke spells by 100 damage at max rank.

That's just for the poke mages listed, there's a whole lot else to be said for the other changes. For example, veigar's weakness is early game into mobile assassins, and that e change cuts down on the number of champions who can deal with him early down, kennen's is literally an intended weakness so he can't just shove you in and stunlock you under tower if you're melee, brand's low scaling accounts for him being a lane bully, etc, etc.

Mages are also my most played class, my 3 most played champs are ahri, lux, and neeko, so i'm not some mage hater.

ADCs can do things on their own especially adcs that have mobility baked in or even engage like kaisa. Also if they were at significant disadvantages in 1v1 against assassins and the like they wouldnt literally be picked in 1v1 events and the like and win. They aren't super weak early like the meme says they are or how they should be. In fact against many champions just having the ranged autos means they bully out. Go watch pro games where lucian is picked and look at cs discrepancy early. If that is a non pro match where you cant rely on jg attention then you are just behind period.

HighwiseeneFeb 2, 20201 votes

ADCs can do things on their own especially adcs that have mobility baked in or even engage like kaisa.

Kai'sa can't engage. She sits in the outskirts of fights due to her low range and waits for opportunities to follow up her team's engage with R.

They aren't super weak early like the meme says they are or how they should be. In fact against many champions just having the ranged autos means they bully out. Go watch pro games where lucian is picked and look at cs discrepancy early.

Yeaaaah i'm done talking with you after this response, you're clearly too biased to discuss anything on this topic. You're pulling exceptions out. Exceptions who tend to do other things waaay worse. For example, lucian scales worse than your average mage. It would be like someone saying "assassins tend to have a weaker lategame than mages" and someone in the peanut gallery chimes in saying "Yeah well akshully kassadin is an assassin and scales well so you're wrong". Pointing out an exception doesn't change from the general trend.

vgamedudeFeb 2, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Kai'sa can't engage. She sits in the outskirts of fights due to her low range and waits for opportunities to follow up her team's engage with R.

Yeaaaah i'm done talking with you after this response, you're clearly too biased to discuss anything on this topic. You're pulling exceptions out. Exceptions who tend to do other things waaay worse. For example, lucian scales worse than your average mage. It would be like someone saying "assassins tend to have a weaker lategame than mages" and someone in the peanut gallery chimes in saying "Yeah well akshully kassadin is an assassin and scales well so you're wrong". Pointing out an exception doesn't change from the general trend.

"kai sa cant engage"

yeah okay, have you even played her? You do any damage even one w hit and you can r on top of someone. Go ahead and quit talking to me then i get nowhere talking to people who only deal in non facts and anecdotes regardless.

lucian scales worse than your average mage

lmao

General Esdeath Feb 2, 20203 votes

half of these literally would remove the counterplay of said champ

General Esdeath Feb 2, 20203 votes

{quoted}

Anivia - R width, R leash range. -Makes Anivia a better Area of Denial mage.

Her R is fine

Malzahar - W reliability, R damage. -W is extremely useless. R base damage is very low for a channeled ability.

Buff voidlings by making them take reduced damage from AoE sources (Like Yorick ghouls do)

Azir - Q cooldown. -Soldiers are too immobile.

As they should be, once he sets up a soldier that's a no-no zone for most mid laners

Lux - E width, R width. -Abilities are too easy to dodge for their mana and cooldown cost.

Her E and R are fine. The only thing I'd want for Lux E is the ability to detonate it faster

Brand - Passive scaling. -Not enough scaling with deathcap.

It shouldn't scale, the point is that it does % max HP burst in a huge circle, along with having a liandry's on top of the one you build.

Karthus - R damage. -Iconic ultimate has barely any damage.

Harvest, use it to kill people that escape with no HP. Late game it's 500 (+ 75% AP), and by 16 you should have at least 400 AP, meaning your ult alone deals 800 magic damage to everyone.

Kennen - W damage. -Kennen's waveclear is low compared to other mages.

Because he uses energy and has great 1v1 potential plus teamfighting.

Morgana - R 2nd activation scaling. -For an ultimate that places Morgana into grave danger there isn't a high enough reward mid and lategame.

You literally slow everyone and force them to retreat or snare. Build item 3157

Nidalee - Q width. -To bring back old Nidalee poke-siege comps. Even Faker misses this.

Yeah how about we DON'T do that.

Veigar - E activation delay. -Delay is extremely long.

Do you not remember the instant E days? This was a healthy change

Vel'Koz - E activation delay. -Delay is long.

Yes, because he has a slow to help him land it

Xerath - Q width. -Q is too easy to dodge.

It's a spammable ability that can clear an entire wave, it should be easy to dodge

Zyra - Q base damage. -Q base damage is too low.

Isn't the point of her Q to activate the seeds?

HP CrookshanksFeb 2, 20202 votes

I think Karma Lissandra Viktor Ziggs deserve buffs more than these mages.

SweedishGunnerFeb 2, 20202 votes

Karma needs a rework, Viktor is playable but the meta isn't good for him, Ziggs just got buffs to every basic ability.

Crescent DuskFeb 2, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sxXrs2jz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-02-02T00:21:21.918+0000)

I think deserve buffs more than these mages.

Definitely. None of these have projectile hard CC (stuns) or high burst combos. The problem is they keep trying to make Karma a mid laner when she has the kit of a support.

Lux and Morgana most certainly don't need buffs at the very least, and neither does Vel'koz.

vgamedudeFeb 2, 20202 votes

The problem is more so marksmen and ranged autos in general in my opinion and less so the mages needing to be changed. When you watch the pro 1v1 tournaments and many of the best picks are marksmen to the point that faker gets beaten on an ASSASSIN to a tristana, or recently how lucian is one of the strongest solo laners who also scales. There is a clear problem.

However this problem I don't feel will ever be looked at by riot. They are deadset on this games stale meta that has existed for near on a decade or so.

SweedishGunnerFeb 2, 20202 votes

Half of these things you say should be buffed are core balance and counterplay elements.

Some things as well; All of Malz's damage comes from W, the problem is they die too fast. not they do no damage. Brand does the most damage regularly with support income, he doesn't need a passive buff. Veigar E delay is to balance how strong it is. Karthus R does plenty of damage. Anivia's R is huge at full growth, you want it to be bigger?

Honestly as a mage main I don't agree at all with basically every point you've put forward.

Tin ObliteratesFeb 2, 20202 votes

Lux - E width, R width. -Abilities are too easy to dodge for their mana and cooldown cost.

Isnt Lux's R cooldown really low though? Last I checked it's 80 seconds at rank 1.

King LegoFeb 2, 20202 votes

As a Vel'Koz main, he doesn't need a change of any sort. He's already a well balanced champion to begin with. His E may be easy to dodge, but its cc isn't that impactful since it's just a tiny knock up, and his Q has a slow which helps to land the E easier. That's why the combo tends to begin with Q and the only exception where you can cast a guaranteed E with little to no chance of being dodged is when the enemy is slowed or doesn't suspect it or even just too close to react.

thefatlazycatFeb 2, 20201 votes

Mages are already overpowered, how bad do you need to be to think the strongest class needs buffs?