Let's talk Grievous Wounds (Again!)

CritDoge·3/8/2017, 9:46:40 PM·31 votes·9,735 views

Before I launch into my semi-wordy argument, I do want to make the point of this post clear, and the reason I'd like to start a discussion on this. This is the assertion of this post: Grievous Wounds in its current iteration is an inherently unhealthy make-or-break mechanic and should either be removed from the game or significantly reduced in strength, and all healers/drain-tankers should be rebalanced accordingly.

Let's break down why I feel like this is the case. Riot acknowledges that it has had problems with healer and drain tank archetypes in the past (looking at you Soraka/Aatrox) and, after many many MANY cycles of trial and error, we seem to have them in a fairly 'balanced' state (except Aatrox, who just got minorly reworked, so I cannot comment on that yet).

But the difficulty of healers to balance has never been solely because of the fact that the mechanic allows users to restore missing green bars. There are other mechanics (like shields) that prevent damage to green bars altogether, and still others that reduce damage done (like Poppy's Armor/MR boost at low health, or Warwick's flat damage reduction on his E). The end result of all these sorts of mechanics is damage mitigation. Healing as a mechanic just assumes that you have to live through the burst of damage in the first place to be restored after the fact.

The difficulty of balancing healing has always been an intricate dance of sacrifice: what a champion gives up in order to restore those green bars. Swain gives up mana at an almost alarming rate early, Vlad and Aatrox give up time (Q3 and R on Vlad, third auto on Aatrox's W), and Soraka sacrifices health. Before we arrived at this state, we had problems where champions were either getting to sustain for large chunks between long intervals cheaply (Soraka) or a champion's scaling heal propelled them too much into a dominate/useless position (Aatrox).

Currently, the way to shut down healing is to build an item (or pick a champion) with Grievous Wounds, which reduces healing on an affected target by 40%. Those items Executioner's Calling -> Mortal Reminder for physical damage champions and Morellonomicon for magic damage users. Unfortunately, because Riot has sought to hone the identities of champions into unique niches over time, it means that such items or abilities that cause Grievous Wounds are essentially A HARD COUNTER to the playstyle of those champions. 40% is a lot. It's almost half. It essentially makes Vlad, Swain, or Soraka useless even in situations where they're meant to shine as sustainers.

Let's break down a few points of contention. **First of all, **Morellonomicon has a strict requirement: you have to hit an enemy with magic damage while they are BELOW 35% health. This is in contrast to Executioner's Calling or Mortal Reminder, which apply their effects immediately, EVEN AFTER A SINGLE AUTO ATTACK. I think this is unhealthy for a few reasons. First, it ensures that physical damage autoattackers will always have a reliable, cheap (800g) way of shutting down a healer. Secondly, it REQUIRES that Grievous Wounds have a high payoff in exchange for meeting the strict requirement (having to burst someone for 65% of their health before they start healing it back), which means that inherently, the stat is unbalanceable. Either it gives too high of a payoff and physical damage auto attackers can always negate a healer/drain tank or magic damage dealers have to fulfill this arbitrarily strict requirement to get a heal reduction that doesn't seem worth it.

**Second of all, **the current effectiveness of grievous wounds (40% heal reduction) has brought us to a sort of pre-QSS-change situation: either your enemy buys grievous wounds and you're useless as a healer/drain tank and cannot do your job, or the neglect to purchase such items and you're overpowered in that specific game. This creates a balancing nightmare where Riot has to buff healers/drain tanks to the point where they can still be viable when people buy Grievous Wounds items (Morello is pretty much ubiquitous with most mages) but then they become out of line when people cannot afford to supplement their build with a Grievous Wounds item (similarly to how Zed and Fiora could have their ultimates rendered useless if their opponent was ahead enough to afford regular itemization AND a QSS). Riot has acknowledged that such polarizing itemization has led to balancing problems in the past, so I'm not sure why Grievous Wounds is any different now.

**Third, **there are currently items and masteries that increase healing, but a lot more stacking is involved to hit the point where Grievous Wounds would be meaningfuly negated. Which then brings us to the cycle where Grievous Wounds was implemented to counter healing, but then heal amplification items were introduced to counter Grievous Wounds, etc.

My proposition: Remove Grievous Wounds from the game and balance healers/drain tanks for a world where Grievous Wounds does not exist, or give it a Forbidden Idol/Randuin's Omen treatment. Make the effect more accessible, but lessen its effectiveness. Allow magic damage users to apply it as easily as physical damage champions, and run a balance pass across the board. There's no reason why you can't have an item similar to the moderate heal-boosting effect of Ardent Censer, but in the opposite direction of heal reduction. If QSS has taught us anything it's that having an item that will hard counter the cornerstone of a champion's reason for existence is a bad idea. Similarly, having an all-or-nothing case like Malzahar's passive on release (long immunity) can be frustrating both for players and those they play against. Ideally, we would want to get to a place where Grievous Wounds either doesn't exist, or exists as a tool to aid the drain tank/healer counter of "Burst before they can heal," not just something you buy to completely shut down that particular strength of the champion.

35 Comments

CritDoge3/9/2017, 12:44:47 AM7 votes

Honestly, I'd love to get some discussion started about this because it does affect quite a few champs in the game (Soraka, Vlad, Swain, Mundo, Aatrox, to name a few)

Matake3/9/2017, 5:51:02 AM4 votes

The % heal reduction just needs to degrade over time and problem is solved.

Tychusfindlay9193/9/2017, 5:38:20 AM4 votes

item 3033 the item that killed vlad's late game.

sobi9993/9/2017, 11:29:40 AM3 votes

If anyone GW effects soraka the most. First and foremost, she is a complete healing based champ so a 40% reduction to her healing is really pushing her to the edge. Second she deals hardly any damage if you build a pure support build ( not surprising considering she is a traditional Supp). Thirdly she has a juicy 10% MAX health sacrifice for every W heal and to top it off she is squishy and an immobile support which does lacks utility otherwise her healing would be difficult to balance alongside it.

Lastly GW hurts soraka so much because unlike Vlad, swain who have to get hit by GW to have reduced healing, soraka on the other hand does reduced healing to allies that have GW and hence automatically reducing her effectiveness as support. Nonetheless the biggest counter to soraka is burst because she cannot heal burst without using summoners, Ult and item actives like solari which have a very high CD. Then again if you diminish her health by pokes you automatically diminish her capacity to heal as W costs her max health. Her Q is very good for sustain but only in lane but that also depends.

I mean i am a soraka main and i thoroughly know her kit and hence how GW specifically hurts her but considering how weak her early game healing is and how cheap item 3123 is, it puts alot of pressure on soraka mains. There is enough burst at bot lane to counter her (mages) and if the adc start directly countering the trad supp, then i am sorry you will see more mages in the bot lane at the end of the day. People need to choose which ones they prefer at bot lane.

Toastersaot3/9/2017, 8:44:26 PM2 votes

I'm vey biased as a Vladimir main, but I like your idea, keep it up, fuck item 3123 , mistake of an item just like Yasuo , the Lethality changes and Anime.

Acheron163/9/2017, 12:52:04 PM2 votes

I agree that Grievous Wounds is inherently bad for the game.

It makes it so that Sustain or Healing based champions are either too good without GW or too weak with GW, there's no inbetween.

Riot's reasoning is that they want GW to balance out Lifesteal, yet lifesteal is countered by burst damage and GW overshoots and makes every healing based champion feel bad. Worse, given that Riot designs most drain and healing champions to have stronger heals when low health (Warwick passive, Aatrox heal, Gangplank's Oranges, Warlord's), Grievous Wounds skews the system so that those heals have to be inherently stronger.

IMO, Grievous Wounds should either be entirely removed, as to male the game easier to balance; OR it should be applied from 50% health down BUT it starts off weak and scales with missing health, reaching maximum value (the present 40% healing reduction) at the 10% health threshold, serving as an "execute" of sorts, to guarantee the target can't heal from such low health.

Though I'd prefer it's removal TBH.

MissingKayo3/9/2017, 11:43:51 PM1 votes

Inherent sustain (built into a champion's kit) versus bonus (through runes, masteries, or items) should be balanced separately.

CritDoge3/10/2017, 2:59:15 AM1 votes

I'm seeing a lot of good discussion here, thank you everyone for what you've been saying. I do agree that the problem is inherently more complicated than it seems due to the fact that champions can buy Life Steal. However, most of those champions are squishy and burstable, and the ones that aren't should be dealt with with CC, or Riot should balance them. Basically, in a Grievous Wounds-less world, there should not be an instance where the answer is not "burst them" or "kill the rest of their team first."

Baby Ghoul3/10/2017, 3:31:41 AM1 votes

I'm a Soraka main, so I may be a bit biased here, but I have always hated Grevious Wounds even before I became a support main last season. It is such a wonky and awkward ability to have in this game. I'd much rather they focus on balancing healing.

Grevious Wounds, in addition to the BS like Lethality and item 3814 , have made supporting quite the challenge. Many people are turning to mage supports.

We feel like, if you can't beat em', join em'. You and your carry are a free kill if you aren't significantly ahead or packing damage.

That's why Brand is turning bot lane into the literal pits of hell in which none of us can ever escape. Khazix popping up with item 3814 needs to be killed. There is no other counterplay involved.

Soraka is a squishy and immobile champion. This meta already dumps all over me with item 3814 and supports with this stupid build item 2301 item 3151 item 3116 item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 doing more damage than their carries.

Grevious Wounds just hits you when you're down man. Seeing Varus buy item 3123 when he's got a Zyra support and Graves jungler camping bot just really makes me lose hope fast.

I can outplay a lot of things, but Grevious Wounds always feels like overkill. Now more than ever.

Calabok3/10/2017, 3:34:01 AM1 votes

how about we BUFF Morellos grievous wounds? I would like to be able to kill stuff that heals.

CritDoge5/2/2017, 7:05:46 AM1 votes

Quick note here (and also shamelessly necroing a thread because I would really like @Meddler to weigh into this).

All of the other current "ANTI-X" items (item 3110 item 3143 ) or "PRO-X" items (Any of the item 3114 builds) seem to be positioned towards incremental advantages (plus or minus 10-20%) to a certain effect in the game (crit, attack speed, heal/shield strength).

I'd like to hear thoughts from a /dev about why Grievous Wounds in all its incarnations (summoner 14 item 3165 item 3123 item 3033) have such a binary effect. I always feel like Vlad/Swain/Soraka are pretty overbearing if they're not horribly behind, but as soon as you build that one item, they're basically not a champion.

CritDoge7/1/2017, 10:00:44 PM1 votes

In light of a recent post by Riot Fearless, I'd like to see if I can get a /dev response to this, and why they've resisted making Grievous Wounds a less all-or-nothing effect, to say nothing of the fact that Morellonomicon currently isn't something you buy to combat Healing, it is something you build by default because it gives everything a mage wants and Grievous Wounds is just something tacked onto it with no apparent tactical intent behind it.

darkrogue910/31/2017, 10:36:29 PM1 votes

I agree with these sentiments. I play DrMundo as almost every role, and I will admit he used to be so op I would never die. I was ok with his nerfing. However, when you are 1 v 1 with an adc and you have over 250 armor with thornmail and randuins, and the adc literally kills you while you have ult on. Something is wrong. Unless the adc is less than 1/3 health that 1 v 1 match ends with me dead if mortal reminder is in their build. I'm up for balanced healing or removal, or at least put mortal reminder with the same restriction as morellonomicon.

CritDoge12/9/2017, 5:45:47 PM1 votes

I just realized that ZenonTheStoic advocated my stance WAY long ago here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/obkTq9My-lets-talk-grievous-wounds

At this point it feels like a problem Riot is refusing to address because it's not as exciting to players when it gets 'solved,' even though the whole heal/drain tank/grievous wounds problem is a fundamentally problematic interaction.

More thread necroing for visibility!

La Belle Sauvage1/23/2018, 6:13:36 PM1 votes

I feel so dumb.

I'm a new player who Mained Sona last season and occasionally played Top. I failed, despite the copious amounts of information available about this item, to understand when invest in Morellonomicon or Executioner's Calling .

I always hate encountering Vlad or any sustain champ. Because as a low ELO player a I failed to realize there was an Item to counter healers/sustains. Basically I had to hope the Sustain Champ I faced was bad and had to play careful so I didn't give lane up.

I don't have much to add to this excellent discussion, most of the post are well written, except to say thanks to the OP for furthering my LoL education.

Edit:

LMAO 11 month old post.

BendTheNation1/30/2018, 11:54:17 AM1 votes

Riot wake up and buff it to 60% or some other ninja buff to this we an't accpet having champions that heal 1000 hp instantly with the proc on then (Vladimir,Vayne,Aatrox,Kog'maw(1000 hp per second) e.t.c.) for real this turns late game in an unplayable hell

CritDoge2/7/2018, 8:51:16 PM1 votes

OKAY. So with the upcoming AP itemization rework coming up, this has introduced some serious concerns to the game. The change of item 3165 to Morello's Cursed Tome, as well as the change in passive to proccing grievous wounds REGARDLESS of health threshold, means that we need to have a discussion around how strong this effect currently is, and how it completely nullifies the kit of certain champions.

TL;DR: Vladimir Soraka DrMundo can have what makes their kits work (healing/regeneration) completely nullified by every single champion in the game.

With the addition of consistent sources of grievous wounds, I would really like Riot to look at how strong this effect is. It effectively decreases each of these champions' effectiveness by 40%. For how easily these items can be accessed, I don't think that's fair.

So, there are a few solutions to this:

  1. What I proposed in my original post. Nerf the effectiveness of Grievous Wounds to a 10-20% in line with the other reduction/augment effects in the game (Cold Steel, Forbidden Idol passives)

  2. Make Grievous Wounds items MUCH more niche. There should be a heavy cost to pay for specializing into countering the enemy's sustain. Right now, Executioner's Calling and Bramble Vest are relatively accessible, but item 3165 is currently CORE, and the changes to it do not really make it any less so.

In fact, the context post literally says, and I quote verbatim, "Having GW on this item allows manaless champs to consider it on first buy, especially with the attractive Flat Pen." THIS IS STILL NOT A MOVE AWAY FROM MAKING THE ITEM CORE. Instead, you are just shifting the subset of champions that WOULD build it as a core item. The idea is that Grievous Wounds should be something you OPT INTO, not something that you HAPPEN TO GET as a result of ITEMIZING FOR FLAT PEN.

In order to stop Grievous Wounds from becoming an UNINTENDED BUT CHAMPION-CRIPPLING BENEFIT, it needs to be a CONSCIOUS CHOICE on the part of the player to opt into it. Currently, Morello's Cursed Tome DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH THIS. The timing with which the effect comes online is also less than optimal, as many champions are able to finish this item before aforementioned champions hit their sustain spikes.

This is a plea to the devs who may be reading this: PLEASE consider that your changes to Morello to move grievous wounds away from being a core item MAY NOT BE ENOUGH.

CritDoge2/7/2018, 9:09:22 PM1 votes

On another note, this is a very NON-INTERACTIVE role for the champions affected by grievous wounds. Their response to the existence of these items is literally: "I pray that my opponents are too stupid to rush Grievous Wounds."

Leaf on Bush2/23/2018, 4:50:34 PM1 votes

Grievous Wounds are literally an excuse for champion balance.

As a Soraka player I really wish they would remove this crap and adjust heals directly.

it just makes no sense to me that healing can heavily outscale damage sources when nobody buys grievous wounds and that heals are underpowered when they do.

Each spell has a base value that increases each time you put in a point, you can adjust that. You have a cooldown that can be adjusted. You have AP scaling that you can adjust. You have runes and items that provide % boni to your heals, you can adjust that as well. You can add even more balance levers if you wanted to. For example ap ratios, cooldowns or base values that change depending on your level.

You could completely control how much Soraka heals at any point in the game. But what does Riot do?

Instead of all that fine tuning they just throw a 40% debuff in the shop. It's like a freaking perma exhaust sold as item. That debuff allows you to make overpowered heals underpowered and because you can't start the game with GW items and because it's not used consistently, this results in a winrate close to 50%. Is that really good balancing?

Best Ekko NA2/23/2018, 5:27:10 PM1 votes

Here's how you fix it, you turn it into a rune which amps healing reduction over time or with a number of attacks or damage dealt. Remove the idea that the enemy has to be at a certain health percent.

Example:

Precision [2rd Tier]

Legend: Mortal Reminder

Every 3rd damaging attack or spell on an enemy champion within 5 seconds inflicts Wounded (1 Stack Per Spell and Ranged Auto Attack, 2 Stacks per Melee Auto Attack).

Wounded: Reduces all healing by 8% up to a maximum of 40% at 5 stacks.

Resolve [3rd Tier]

Crippling Blows

Nearby enemy heals and regeneration trigger Enrage when the healing is above a certain percentage of the enemy's maximum health.

Enrage: Gain additional Adaptive Damage equal to 15% of all nearby enemy healing within the past 5 seconds for 15 seconds (30 second cooldown).

Papa Andrei3/9/2017, 4:05:25 AM1 votes

Lol I just made a post about this same thing just less wordy.

Basically my idea was Make GW and LIfesteal/Healing type things only part of kits. Solves the balance issues, like "Oh I didn't pick X champ with GW into their Vlad, Mundo, Aatrox? Ye im fucked"

Teridax683/9/2017, 10:37:48 AM1 votes

I agree with this. Riot has oftentimes tried to give champions power by letting them apply Grievous Wounds on their kits, as is the case with Morgana now on the PBE and was the case with Mundo and Akali a little while back, and each time they pull them back, because it turns out the mechanic doesn't carry that much real gameplay of its own. By its very nature, GW is so specific that it can only be made excessively strong when it does apply, otherwise it ends up being useless all the time. That's not healthy design in any manner, and the fact that it also forces many heal-based champions to have excessive sustain in compensation ends up making healing more of a balance problem, not less.

To a larger extent, I think Riot really needs to do a hard pass on second-hand counters, as none of them are good for the game. True sight, a counter to stealth, has been mostly phased out, and what remains of it has been faulted for screwing over particular champions, e.g. Teemo; armor reduction and penetration have played a huge part in inflating stats on tanky itemization even before players started abusing their associated items; and Grievous Wounds simply make healing more difficult to balance by forcing it to function at two completely different levels of effectiveness simultaneously, which is impossible.

Superficially, all of these mechanics present the illusion of having an option against a certain feature, but in reality they make that feature harder to deal with than it should be, since it's always propped up against that counter, and ends up being stronger than what is healthy on its own. On top of that, it's hindered design work on features that need revamps: true sight for a time was a band-aid to a stealth system that carried little to no real counterplay (it still doesn't, to an extent); armor pen/reduction obstructs potential work on tanky itemization that, on its own, allows champions to get way too tanky far too quickly; and Grievous Wounds as a counter to sustain-based champions hides the fact that many of those champions have improperly gated healing. Mundo and Swain are prime examples, but even Vladimir, in spite of his rework and the removal of spell vamp, still often ends up being feast-or-famine.

Because of this, I completely support removing Grievous Wounds from the game, which would give many of these champions no excuse to have so little interaction tied to their current sustain. Aatrox post-rework, for example, is still going to be very feast or famine, and both Mundo and Swain need to allow players to mitigate their healing organically if they are to keep their massive sustain. The counterplay to healing shouldn't be to buy some counter item nobody really wants to purchase, it should be to address the source of sustain itself, and find a way to mitigate the power the enemy derives from it.

SlashStriker3/9/2017, 10:58:48 AM1 votes

When a champion got tons of health you get item 3153 When a champion got tons of armor you get item 3035 When a champion got tons of healing you get item 3123

How many people buy item 3123? From what i see barely anyone buys it

GW is unhealthy so whats next? Remove Armor and Magic Resistance?

TyroneWatermelon3/9/2017, 11:19:27 AM1 votes

Initially I thought of this idea too,but then there's the idea of making grevious wounds items horribly situational,inefficient counterparts of other core firms,like last whisper's case. While I agree mortal should apply GW on low %hp targets like morello,it seems like a legit Item,that you choose GW effect over 15% physical damage,which means losing dps. BUT,morellonomicon is just broken,it's cost efficiency is perfect is the GW effect USB just a bonus,mostly the characters that buy the item don't even intend to have the GW effect,they just want the item itself. We need more diversity of GW items. Also remove it from Ignite

WiegrafOfValor3/9/2017, 1:53:45 PM1 votes

#"all healers/drain-tankers AND LIFESTEAL + SPELLVAMP should be rebalanced accordingly."

Or how do I deal with ADC healing 500 HP per auto? Or ADC healing more than Thornmail can damage them