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a reason why bot lane determines win/loss these days

notice me Sin pi··24 votes·2,927 views

I will leave out reasons such as squishy towers, early dragon, ADC powerspike since we are all familiar with that.

In the old days, supports did not have much income and therefore did not get powerful as a result of winning lane. For each lane won, it generally resulted in 1 fed player. Right now, if bot lane wins lane, it results in fed ADC in addition to well-farmed support thanks to the support gold items giving so much income. If other lanes win lane, it results in 1 fed player. Ever since riot started putting supports' power budget in items item 3504 item 3107 item 3190 item 3109 etc. as well, a support that wins lane is destined to become stronger than the opposing support unlike in the old days.

How to fix: Current problem is that support income is associated solely with bot lane, and that's why bot lane determines the win/loss. Simply making supports synergize with classes not called Marksman would loosen the association, and other lanes would be able to carry as well.

36 Comments

WiegrafOfValor22 votes

Is funny how everytime ADCs are unbereable they find a way to blame supports and tanks.

Remember when the trend was to blame ardent and they say that when ardent was nerfed everything would be back to normal and games would be enjoyable? Ardent was nerfed and ADCs are still absurdly powerful, with many of them gaining buffs after ardent meta.

#THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE SUPPORT, ADCS ARE DOING RIDICULOUS AMOUNT OF DAMAGE, NERF THEIR DAMAGE FIRST, THEN LOOK AT SUPPORTS.

HalcyonDweller7 votes

The problem can be everything, you shouldn't dismiss the OP just because you think that they are blaming supports. if you had bothered to read the whole post you would have seen that they didn't blame supports at all.

BestPudgeNA6 votes

{quoted} #THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE SUPPORT, ADCS ARE DOING RIDICULOUS AMOUNT OF DAMAGE, NERF THEIR DAMAGE FIRST, THEN LOOK AT SUPPORTS.

This 1000 times this. ADC are simple doing too much damage too early .

notice me Sin pi3 votes

[{quoted}](name=notice me Sin pi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sYyARh0c,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-03-14T19:35:59.218+0000)

I will leave out reasons such as squishy towers, early dragon, ADC powerspike since we are all familiar with that.

i just wanna point out that I completely agree with you on that ADCs themselves are broken. I am just adding on to it by tldr-saying that supports confined to ADCs is not healthy.

T4underbolt5 votes

Everything started way back in S5 and then s6 with tank changes that made them broken. The ADCs got buffed to deal with tanks. Then assassins got buffed to deal with ADCs but riot loves ADCs so they buffed ADCs, their items and lowered cost of those items. Then assassins got more items so ADCs got their supports buffed to oblivion. And now we are here with everything but fighter or assassins having easiest time to play and at the same time the biggest reward.

Krytoric4 votes

How can you actually say that? do you actually play league?

Cyrosi8 votes

I think it'd be better for everyone involved if ADCs lost some carry potential but were more self sufficient. Then support could actually support whoever needed it instead of just supporting the ADC all the time. I've had 3 games this week where we lost multiple towers on mid and top, and the enemy top and mid lane were a few levels higher than us, but still won by a landslide because we won the bot lane. I don't think it should be like that. but I'm a new player, so what the heck do I know?

Someone said it better here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5IEAHhsP-adcs-need-to-lose-their-carry-monopoly-and-supports-need-to-help-the-whole-team

Lothloran6 votes

How to fix: Learn to ADC and win 100% of your games.
If the problem is SO bad that people need to flood the forums bitching about it, but they're not willing to play ADC every game themselves then the problem must not be that bad. Really makes ya think.

Funkin Dunkin16 votes

{quoted}

How to fix: Learn to ADC and win 100% of your games.
If the problem is SO bad that people need to flood the forums bitching about it, but they're not willing to play ADC every game themselves then the problem must not be that bad. Really makes ya think.

Or it is a role they don't enjoy playing.

Lothloran5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Funkin Dunkin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sYyARh0c,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-03-14T20:17:25.730+0000)

Or it is a role they don't enjoy playing.

BS. People do things they don't enjoy all the time in games to have a competitive advantage. Essentially the issue people keep bringing up is how "overpowered ADC and botlane" are, right? "Win bot, win game", if that were really true, then your bullshit excuse is that people enjoy losing more than winning and that's bullshit.

Lothloran7 votes

{quoted}

BS. People do things they don't enjoy all the time in games to have a competitive advantage. Essentially the issue people keep bringing up is how "overpowered ADC and botlane" are, right? "Win bot, win game", if that were really true, then your bullshit excuse is that people enjoy losing more than winning and that's bullshit.

OR

They're blowing the "problem" way out of proportion.

Revali5 votes

There's a difference between doing it in a normal matter, and something so unhealthy it actually centralizes the game so much other roles get funneled into protecting the adc instead of actually trying to do their own jobs that they're just glorified supports.

Really makes you think.

50000000000000006 votes

ok but playing this game is an optional experience with no extrinsic rewards (disregarding challenger jackets). It doesn't make sense to do something you don't enjoy just to try to win. League is ultimately a game.

Hópe1 votes

{quoted}

BS. People do things they don't enjoy all the time in games to have a competitive advantage. Essentially the issue people keep bringing up is how "overpowered ADC and botlane" are, right? "Win bot, win game", if that were really true, then your bullshit excuse is that people enjoy losing more than winning and that's bullshit.

You got down voted for telling the truth.

Mizaya3 votes

Because being ahead/behind as an ADC has nothing much to do with how you play as much as whichever jungler camps harder. Bonus points if the enemy support is a tahm kench, then you reaallly can't do shit in lane but farm mindlessly.

saltran5 votes

Apparently ppl cry that they can't 1vs9 but they also cry because botlane can 2vs8.

BobaFlautist4 votes

All roles being equal, the winning bot lane should win the game at least 40% of the time, regardless of what else is happening on the map.

If a substantial effort from both teams goes to winning bot (mid roams, jungle focus) then it makes sense for that to go up to 75%+

saltran1 votes

{quoted}

All roles being equal, the winning bot lane should win the game at least 40% of the time, regardless of what else is happening on the map.

If a substantial effort from both teams goes to winning bot (mid roams, jungle focus) then it makes sense for that to go up to 75%+

This is probably one of the best coments I have seen in the Boards.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

{quoted}

All roles being equal, the winning bot lane should win the game at least 40% of the time, regardless of what else is happening on the map.

no, it shouldn't. every lanes should.

Leetri1 votes

Bot lane has 40% of your team, so if every single player had exactly equal influence over the game bot lane would decide who wins 40% of the time. It's only natural that the lane with the most players have the most influence.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Bot lane has 40% of your team, so if every single player had exactly equal influence over the game bot lane would decide who wins 40% of the time. It's only natural that the lane with the most players have the most influence.

Except marksman should be as strong as they are as early as they currently do.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

All roles being equal, the winning bot lane should win the game at least 40% of the time, regardless of what else is happening on the map.

If a substantial effort from both teams goes to winning bot (mid roams, jungle focus) then it makes sense for that to go up to 75%+

The problem with this is this assumes that bot lane should be scaling at the same rate as mid and top, despite being later game dps and force multiplying oriented roles.

intro bot team4 votes

I actually dont know what if ppl here are all like above plat 3 but imo below that its much harder to carry as an adc then as a jungler Dont think adc dmg per itself is that much of a problem but when a tristana for example get some kills its basically over imo the role snowballs maybe too hard

adc are still very reliant on their team and they are the primary dmg role so why are ppl are complaining so hard

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

[{quoted}](name=bot fekar,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sYyARh0c,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-03-15T07:13:41.790+0000)

adc are still very reliant on their team and they are the primary dmg role so why are ppl are complaining so hard

Just play top 50 games, you'll understand what mean coin flip

Tomoe Gozen4 votes

What many people don't really seem to want to understand is that supports actually do help everyone - not just your Marksman. Whether we're talking about Enchanters, Disruptors, Tanks or "battle mages" (mage supports) - they all do their job equally well but just co-exist with your Marksman in the early game as a part of a laning phase. There are 3 lanes (plus jungle) and there are 5 roles which means that one lane is going to have to house 2 champions (which from S1 was established by the EU meta as an ADC + support lane).

It's not Marksmen that aren't self-sufficient, it's the supports. Supports tend to be the weakest of the roles in terms of stats (damage most usually) simply because much of their power budget is allocated in utility/disruption/tanking and they pay off when paired with a champion that can deal damage. Unless we're talking about "battle mages", these champions cannot solo lane against a more damage oriented champion and they usually also lack waveclear.

We already had monsters like Janna, Soraka, Lulu and Karma doing work both as mid laners and supports equally well. They very much warped the role and forced the usual "tenants" of those lanes out as viable picks against them. Which is exactly why Riot had to nerf such supports and impact their solo lane performance.

No, a support's income is not tied exclusively to "bot lane" because all you need to do with a support item is to be present near dying minions and clear out vision to get gold. If the meta suddenly changed and mids were sharing their lane with a support, there would literally be no difference in how a typical support would perform in such a situation, except maybe being equally distant from both top and bot lane and could potentially aid in a gank more easily.

Leetri1 votes

As a side note, supports are paired with marksmen instead of mages because mages scale with levels and sharing XP gimps their level lead. Most mages would probably need some kind of XP passive like Mordekaiser in order to lane properly with a support.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

{quoted}

As a side note, supports are paired with marksmen instead of mages because mages scale with levels and sharing XP gimps their level lead. Most mages would probably need some kind of XP passive like Mordekaiser in order to lane properly with a support.

Any champion has that scaling. Mages are less dependent on XP since their only scaling comes from skills and shorter CDs (most of the time) while Marksmen have to worry about that, plus AS and damage per level. Mages don't have AP scaling per level and usually, their AA damage isn't really useful because they predominantly deal damage with their skills.

If the meta was different and let's say that mages were usual bot laners with a support but Marksmen were being played mid for as long as we can remember, this would've been the same problem. Ziggs was also a bot laner at one point and he didn't really seem to be hurt by having to share XP with a support.

Malix Farwin4 votes

The problem with this theory is that bot has been determining wins well before the support changes right around ardent censor. Then ardent censor got gutted and bot lane STILL determined games. The problem is cheap ADC items. While the support having more gold is compounding it is not the core issue.

DragonShea3 votes

Indeed, supports should back up the entire team or the 'mate that needs it, not being an ADC's bodyguard to cover up their weaknesses.

TotalJerk3 votes

Reminder that that there are two champions in bot lane. Literally 40% of your team is the botlane. Throw in dragon proximity and it's just a natural inevitability that bot lane is the most important one.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Reminder that that there are two champions in bot lane. Literally 40% of your team is the botlane. Throw in dragon proximity and it's just a natural inevitability that bot lane is the most important one.

Thing is, in the past, ADC didnt spike as hard or as early so camping the lane wasnt as effrctive as it is today. Before, you'd have to gank bot maybe 3 times to get the same effect as just 1 mid or top gank.

Whatsmore is repeat ganks had nore diminishing returns.

Now, since bot spikes much harder and sooner and has no fortification on toer on top of drag, botlane repeat ganks are not only effective, but optimal.

Hügö3 votes

Again a try to blame supports? "Oh no marksmen aren't broken it's jsut ardent nerf it and all will be fine", got nerfed and marksmen still broken.

Dysnomia2 votes

Two feeders = 3vs7. All of the other crap you said is irrelevant.

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

MINDBLOWN!!

[Careful, post may contain sarcasm, irony, jokes or exaggerations.]

3TWarrior1 votes

actually, items that started giving more raw stats than traditional support gameplay caused the issue

a support with item 3222 = not a problem, the same with the gold generating items, but then, the items started adding additional power to their kits such as shields on enchanters or heals, etc

Chigara Ashada1 votes

I legit think one of the biggest solutions would just actually be to make the towers as sturdy as all other lanes. It wouldn't fix all problems for sure, but it would really prevent the ramp up in gold income for ADCs and their respective supports. Plus with the fact that quite a few can actually outrange the tower and it's firing radius I don't see the point of why it should be easier for them to take it.

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