She was already the dominant pick in the previous patch... but now that's about to increase.
Well guess what: Frozen heart got nerfed, Randuins got nerfed (changed, but against Botrk vayne it's a nerf). And what did we get in return? MR item buffs. Ye that will teach her.
Unironic SJW31 votes"Her early game is really strong"
thanks riot for what you've done to the bot lane meta that VAYNE HAS A STRONG EARLY GAME
VAYNE STRONG EARLY GAME VAYNE
3 months ago only the vayne mains could even get out of lane without feeding, now I win pretty much every Vayne lane as long as I don't pick her into shit like Draven.
Yosuke Apperu9 votesFunny how draven is one of the highest skill cap adcs out there but he actually works for his damage XD
Sulghunter5 votesYeah, I played Draven a couple times when he was free once, and he is really damn hard to play. Catching those axes looked a lot easier when I played against Draven.
Sir Fuzzi6 votesDraven is scary because he doesn't get all those cushy safe options like Cait or Ashe.
Fun, watching Dravens think they're invincible because... well, Draven.
TyroneWatermelon1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sir Fuzzi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sXoMX1Lz,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-23T23:32:20.694+0000)
Draven is scary because he doesn't get all those cushy safe options like Cait or Ashe.
Fun, watching Dravens think they're invincible because... well, Draven.
i know that feel,but i didnt knew garen ult can 1shot me at half hp :/
Tyaldan1 votesDid you get a lot of kills? true damage spin to wins and ults!
PiVoRx6 votesKonckback, Stun and invisibility on a adc with % health true damage. Thats bullshit.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO55 votesI'm just offering my thoughts as unranked player - so consider them with respect to my average experience and capabilities.
I play some Vayne and while there has been a definite increase in her popularity recently, I don't think she needs nerfs. Here are a few points which I think address this issue:
I think the crux of the issue is not that Vayne is too strong but rather that she hit her power spike faster. I tend to think of Vayne as weak early, strong late, but even stronger mid. She shines in the midgame, when opponent carries are building completely offensively and opponent tanks have built maybe 2/3 items with one of them usually being mr or boots. During this mid game enemy opponents are often so focused on building items they don't buy a pink ward or upgrade red trinket. Vayne is strongest imo at this point - when she has bork + greaves, kiting opponents who don't invest 100 gold to expose invisibility and somewhat nullifying the sunfire/tabi/armor rush with her silver bolts procs. During this same mid game, team fights are more likely to occur in the jungle instead of lane phase, allowing Vayne to utilize brush + ult stealth to exploit more ways to get the stun of condemn as there is simply more terrain.
This brings me to what I said earlier: Vayne hits her power spike earlier. See with BoRK, which costs less than IE and builds out of cheaper components (though most don't Vayne can do the 3 pot Long sword start to rush vamp scepter), and Greaves, which is quite cheap AS, Vayne dishes out a lot of dps - especially with her ult ad steroid. With 1400 gold, Vayne can sustain decently in lane and with Tier 1 boots she can play more safe. These items are relatively cheaper than the ones conventional ADC's rush.
But I don't think these issues remove her weakness (which is still her undesirable lane phase); they just help her get out of it faster. The solution? Honestly, I'm not sure. The obvious answer is to nerf her kit but I am personally against that without more lategame compensation. BoRK was changed into an ADC item instead of caster item (active nerfed, passive changed instead of 5% max health to 8% current); the best solution is probably to revert the changes or at least make BoRK are much more disputable pick for ADC's in general.
Ever since Cinderhulk was introduced, aggressive early junglers such as Lee Sin and Elise were slowly replaced by later scaling tanks such as Sejuani and Gragas. Thus, Vayne faced far less early pressure because her opposing jungler took longer to clear, tended to have less mobility, and relied more on providing utility to their team instead of high base damage/execute play potential. This jungle shift is simply not as punishing early, and late game will suffer because they are simply building tank to which Vayne will shred.
With nearly every top laner running teleport its too risky for enemy bot lane to dive as your own top laner can tp to a lane minion or bush ward or just the turret and give Vayne some help; she might still die but because of that tp she might get enemy summoners or kill/assists. Of course since the enemy top laner is likely running tp if Vayne dives she takes that risk - but as we have all heard Vayne has a weak early - its far more likely she is pushed in than pushed out.
As the meta is simply becoming more late game focused, Vayne is given more freedom to farm and scale. Team compositions have changed - diving an enemy Vayne with your Amumu is harder early than with your Lee.
Furthermore AP Offensive supports are far less common - support Nautilus in particular is so amazing. With top lane /jungle tanks like Shen and Naut coming to the bot lane, Vayne doesn't have to deal with a squishy lane partner, but rather an initiator who can peel while Vayne kites. Early poke like Morgana and Sona while valuable seem to pale in comparison with your Alistar's constant heals and flash q w into turret.
This shift in meta is to me, a Vayne player, simply more freeing and forgiving.
To me, this is the crux of the issue at hand. Vayne has some of the lowest base stats and is utterly auto attack reliant (i think of Condemn as a long cool down aa enhancifier) - she cannot wave clear and she cannot kill towers. Vayne might be able to 1v1 any ADC late game, but she can't kill towers faster than Trist or Jinx. Graves and sivir can clear waves with 1 q 12 mintues into game, which Vayne cannot match without sacrificing an item slot for relatively weak shiv. There are a lot of ways to pressure Vayne that don't involve fighting her - if you can apply pressure to her tower then roam mid lane or invade enmy jungle. Map and objective pressure should be exploited so that Vayne is punished for having such duelist kit. Call your mid laner and jungler and gangk bot; intimidate her so early she will think twice of ever choosing her again.
Vayne is sort of the Nasus of ADC's. They have lategames which are time dependent - not as much kill/gold dependent. To them kills and towers are useful but not necessary if they can drag out the game even 10 more seconds to scale into later.
These are just my thoughts - please respond.
ScowlingGusStraw4 votes
Sulghunter1 votesWho is the better 1v1? Quinn or Vayne?
ScowlingGusStraw2 votesYou mean fighting each othher or other heroes? Because if wuinn and vayne are fighting each other it is a classmatch based around mechanics. Vayne has her true damage but quinn has her passive and another skill that procs it. If its a 1-1 the passive will be proc on vayne from the start. You canthen try to silence her, whichmight be difficult because of her tumble. If i was fighting her as quinn I would try to proc the passive, silence, E, proc passive again andfight.
Axis the Dragon6 votesSituational - if Vayne Condemn Stuns, she wins, if Quinn hits Blind, she wins
Hawkefire1 votesOn the contrary, I disagree, as the moment Vayne gets blinded, she can just ult + tumble and then hide out in stealth for the majority of the blind duration.
Edit: That and Quinn's glitchy autoattacks are....well glitchy....especially versus someone that is going in and out of vision from stealth.
Axis the Dragon1 votesI suppose if you take glitches into account, then yeah. Quinn really needs looking at - she was made in such an awkward moment (I think it was right before they tried rewriting some of their coding) that she's probably in the top 5 buggiest Champions atm
BuzzinTate3 voteswait people still use quinn? (jk i love her, still barely use her tho)
ScowlingGusStraw3 votesYeah shes cool, unique. I havent played her in probably over a month. I yhink once in ranked. But i really dont like her ulti....
Trash MammaI4 votesCan someone enlighten me what is wrong with Vayne?
A late game hyper carry pooping on people late game? What's the issue?
Pre-bork she's complete ass (from what i've seen) and post-bork she's usually meh
Post-bork/PD(or shiv..or BT or IE w/e she gets after bork) and boots is usually when they become a nightmare and that's perfectly reasonable that if she gets 3-4 items she starts scaling hard. That's what is suppose to happen is it not?
Finn Teh Human5 votesThat's what people don't understand. She's just doing what she is supposed to do. I mean champions like Jinx, Thresh, Blitz etc have ALWAYS had high pick rates and good win rates. Vayne is a high skill cap champion, which means the better you are with her the more plays you'll make and the harder you'll win. Idk why people aren't able to see that.
TyroneWatermelon4 votes[{quoted}](name=Finn Teh Human,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sXoMX1Lz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-08-23T16:44:15.271+0000)
That's what people don't understand. She's just doing what she is supposed to do. I mean champions like Jinx, Thresh, Blitz etc have ALWAYS had high pick rates and good win rates. Vayne is a high skill cap champion, which means the better you are with her the more plays you'll make and the harder you'll win. Idk why people aren't able to see that.
You call vayne high skill champion.means you have no idea what ur talking about.
Gorgannan4 votesShe's over the top, but she is DEFINITELY one of the hardest champions to play. I've given up on learning her more than I've picked up many champions.
TyroneWatermelon6 votesShe's over the top, but she is DEFINITELY one of the hardest champions to play. I've given up on learning her more than I've picked up many champions.
is harder to play than vayne
A Miss Fortune32 votesHer early game is really strong and basically if she gets fed the game is over. Not many fall offs. Mobility, self peel, damage, shreds tanks, strong throughout the game and basically the best duelist in the game as well.
Yosuke Apperu12 votesFinally someone understands. People say "but vayne has a weak early game" Stop that, it doesn't exist. When she does get botrk she's far more than just "meh". Also tank shredding on a ranged champion is silly. Seriously how anyone can think that percent max health true damage has any balance in beyond me. You cannot itemize against her. Plus she probably has the best 1v1 in the game(partially due to the fact that she chooses when and where she fights.)
A Miss Fortune4 votesShe wins early game just by spamming condem. You can AA > Q > AA > E and not only do a ton of physical and true damage to them, but also push them away so they can't even trade back.
Yosuke Apperu8 votesHer mana costs are also really freaking low as well!
Byakuya Kuchiki2 votes"low" oh she used tumble and condemned twice? GG shes out of mana
MaximumNinja173 votes"low" oh she used tumble and condemned twice? GG shes out of mana
Yea but the enemy adc is dead or very low . Assume she lvl 3 with no bonus ad from runes 17 damage from Q 45 true damage from w <--Flat + percent true damage 45 damage from E 116 from AA 17 + 45 + 45 + 116 =223 * 2 =446 damage when at this stage most adcs have 620 to 650 hp 635- 446 = 189 hp left.
O and she still has enough mana left for another tumble encase she gets caught out
Hôkagé2 votesYou're not accounting for armour. She would not do that much damage
Kuroi868 votesYou're forgetting what put Vayne into her current position of power.
Her counters were nerfed. (It also didn't hurt that Vayne thrives in tank metas.)
The champions that would make Vayne work for her late game power aren't as strong as before and have fallen out of favor with the community.
Now there aren't currently many options to take up against Vayne.
At current Vayne either needs a direct nerf to curb her power or Riot needs to buff a couple of her counters back into favor.
IRicochet Runner2 votesPlay Fizz It's K
MohawkBird12 votes[deleted]
Hawkefire1 votesI must admit, she sure as hell used to have one.
JohnnyNoxid3 votesShe has a weak early game. That phase may not last as long as someone like Tristana but it's still relatively weak.
The does what she's supposed to do: eat tanks. The counter to her (besides moderate/hard CC) is HP and attack speed reduction (Roduins, Frozen Heart, Exhaust).
Sulghunter2 votesThe way i see it, her early game is either before she hits level three, or before she gets 
.
NineTailedMystic1 votesBuild HP against % max HP. Ok.
rampaging poet2 votesHP will help you survive the rest of her auto-attack damage. People (myself included) love to bitch about her % HP true damage but the rest of her autos still hurt too. Having 92% of 2500 HP is still more than 92% of 2000 HP.
JohnnyNoxid2 votesBuild HP against % max HP. Ok.
Don't forget the Frozen Heart.
SukaBlyat2 votesIt's her laning phase that is weak she can get bullied pretty hard if you don't know what you are doing but get past the laning phase and have your bork she is gonna scale into a beast. Also it gets to a point if she has like 4 or 5 kills the game is over cause nobody gonna be able to kill her.
JohnnyNoxid1 votesIt's her laning phase that is weak she can get bullied pretty hard if you don't know what you are doing but get past the laning phase and have your bork she is gonna scale into a beast. Also it gets to a point if she has like 4 or 5 kills the game is over cause nobody gonna be able to kill her.
Then something's wrong with the team comp and coordination. Yes, it's not easy to coordinate with 4 other random individuals but that doesn't make it any less wrong.
TyroneWatermelon1 votes[{quoted}](name=ThePreyMan PHS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sXoMX1Lz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-08-23T19:26:52.484+0000)
She has a weak early game. That phase may not last as long as someone like Tristana but it's still relatively weak.
The does what she's supposed to do: eat tanks. The counter to her (besides moderate/hard CC) is HP and attack speed reduction (Roduins, Frozen Heart, Exhaust).
She has no weak early game,she doesnt have burst and cant fight 1v1 until level 3.after that,she can 1v1 every other adc except groves,cait and draven.
JohnnyNoxid1 votesShe has no weak early game,she doesnt have burst and cant fight 1v1 until level 3.after that,she can 1v1 every other adc except groves,cait and draven.
Cait only beats her in lane Because of her range and poke
Skypual2 votes[deleted]
Gorgannan1 votesYou don't know how to balance champions at all. That E nerf is obscenely stupid.
Let's try coming up with real solutions that don't make us look like whiny bitches.
Skypual2 votesOkay, tell me why her E nerf is stupid you're not helping by just saying stuff without arguments.
Gorgannan1 votesThe fact that you're taking away half her mana pool with one e, and making it so bad that she can't condemn ANYONE who is not HORRIBLE at the game and thinking in advance, and the same time as you're nerfing several other parts of her kit.
Sorry, some things are SO retarded I shouldn't have to justify calling it retarded.
Skypual1 votesThe fact that you're taking away half her mana pool with one e, and making it so bad that she can't condemn ANYONE who is not HORRIBLE at the game and thinking in advance, and the same time as you're nerfing several other parts of her kit.
Sorry, some things are SO retarded I shouldn't have to justify calling it retarded.
Tell me who is safer ADC than Vayne early game. If you're saying Tristana I'm not going to argue further because She is not. She can not kite and the popular supports such as Thresh and Janna can stop her W. Her E already costs 90 Mana, and making it scale would take away her early power. 110/105/100/95/90 She should need to survive early game but right now it's super easy. She can trade fairly well with AA,Q,AA,E and enemy has no way to damage her back while it's taking their 35% of HP. Right now she can condemn anybody who is in the middle of the lane, reducing knock back to 300 from 470 will make it so that she won't win every fight in the jungle and get easy stuns. I don't understand what you're calling retarded. All of those nerfs will hurt her early game besides stealth nerf 1 sec to 0.75 second. No other ADC gets 470 range knockback and 1.5 second potential stun on a regular spell.
Your arguments are not valid.
Gorgannan1 votesShe can't stun anyone in the middle of the lane, "She can trade fairly well with AA,Q,AA,E and enemy has no way to damage her back while it's taking their 35% of HP. " Oh, we're talking against an afk target. ok.
Skypual1 votesShe can't stun anyone in the middle of the lane, "She can trade fairly well with AA,Q,AA,E and enemy has no way to damage her back while it's taking their 35% of HP. " Oh, we're talking against an afk target. ok.
Lanes on Summoner's Rift are approximately 1000 units wide. Her knockback range is 470. a smallest champion is teemo with width of 100 units. that means that distance from wall and teemo is 450. And I just don't understand what you're saying about afk target. Q cancels her auto attack she can easily get 2 attacks under 1 second that means 2 stacks on target and E procs 3 stacks while knocking back enemy.
Gorgannan1 votesEz can auto Q, Corki can auto Q auto, lucian can also aa cancel. Her level 1 is good, her level 2 is decent, her level 3 is bad, and she's not good again until after she gets bork.
Also, you're calculating Teemo from edge to edge, when if he's standing in the middle, it would only be half his mass. On top of the fact that any support other than MAYBE Nami can chunk her for 1/3 of her HP, so Vayne would have to be exactly between you and one side of the lane, a feat that not even her short ranged Q can do, unless she's already come close, a tell of what she plans on doing, and an easy way for your support to land CC or damage.
Long story short: Vayne would be OP 1v1 vs. an adc in lane, but her insanely low base stats make her support fodder.
Axis the Dragon2 votes110 Mana for a regular spell on an ADC is way too high lol
