Maintaining Sivir's Unique Niche

Jalesom·10/14/2014, 4:09:41 AM·15 votes·11,417 views

Sivir is unique due to her incredible waveclear, movement speed, split pushing/pushing power, and her spell shield.

How items prevent her niche role. Her waveclear as an ADC is primarily achieved by building Cooldown Reduction (CDR) with her skills scaling off of raw damage. However, the only items that provide lots of raw Atttack Damage with Cooldown Reduction are item 3508 , item 3071, item 3142 , item 3209, item 3172 . The essence reaver synergizes well with Sivir's kit, but is not efficient enough to rush as a first item and does not provide enough mana per hit in the early game to compensate for her overwhelming mana needs. The Black Cleaver, although it synergizes extremely well with her kit, does not do enough damage to tanks compared to the Last Whisperer. This forces an entire team comp to be built around Sivir to compensate with lots of Attack Damage from other champions to take full advantage of Black Cleaver. This often does not work well because unless you are in a 5 man team, in solo Q you have no control over what others pick. Youmoo's Ghostblade works well with her kit like black cleaver because it allows her to run down opponents being she has no crowd control abilities, but it simply isn't efficient enough to get to kill one squishy when there are two tanks (last whisper needed). The Spirit of the Elder Lizard is a jungling item and simply isn't enough damage and utility for an ADC. The Zephyr is a great item on Sivir that Gives her most everything she needs except large raw damage. Also, the Zephyr is typically only bought end game when you have tons of gold and feel like replacing Berserker's Greaves.

Other items that provide CDR that work well with her kit are item 3025 item 3065 item 3110 , but these all are defensive items. Iceborn Gauntlet gives AP instead of AD. Spirit Visage synergizes best with life steal and is a viable item but Guardian Angel and Banshies Veil are often better choices due to their utility in teamfights.

This forces her to opt for the standard adc build mention in other posts that do not synergize with her kit. So the question is does one revamp the items which affect 100 other characters, OR change her kit to bring out the usefulness of the items mentioned above.

*The obvious answer is change her kit because then you are working with her kit as really the only variable. *

The emphasis of Sivir's kit. Currently her kit is built around movement speed, waveclear, and split pushing. The passive gives you extra mov't speed after dealing damage to a champion, and her ult is a whole team and/or minions mov't speed steroid. Mov't speed is extremely important for her because she has no crowd controls, low attack range, and no dodge ability. I say no dodge because her spell shield does not re-position her, it simply blocks ONE incoming ability. That is why her boomerang blade has long range and her rickochet damages from a distance.

The faults of her kit. She requires raw AD items but is most effective with CDR forcing players to either play her like almost every other ADC or sacrifice the ADC role of being the main source of attack damage output for her team for CDR. Her Spell Shield has an extremely long cooldown at low levels forcing her to waste rickochet on minions to damage champs at a safe distance ( which is half damage on bounces) or use a lot of mana to possibly land a boomerang blade (which has been improved in terms of its hitbox recently). When her spell sheild is down she is forced to flash or ult to escape abilities unlike other adc's who have a Q, W, E, crowd control, or slow to kite especially at low levels. If she falls behind just a little she has very little chance to catch back up in terms of outplaying an opponent simply with her kit. Also as a side note, one oddity is that her ults passive gives ricochets active % attack speed. Shouldn't it simply be that ricochets active grants % attack speed and causes autoattacks to bounce for 3 auto attacks??

Interesting ways to improve her kit without altering items!! Her ults passive could be to give CDR based on current movement speed value (with ricochet retaining the 80% attack speed but as an active of ricochet itself). This would encourage actually building item 3172 giving 10% CDR AND Tenacity which is important to counter incoming crowd control being she doesn't have some crowd control of her own. Also, depending on the amount of CDR given by the passive, the item 3078 becomes more viable to rush because it would also synergize with Sivir's passive. By using her Ult, with the right %CDR scaling, she could easily reach 40% CDR later in the game allowing her to really have damage output in teamfights. The downfall of this is that it does not synergize well with her waveclear/split push niche but instead turns her more to teamfighting. On the other hand this might allow her to make incredible moves to dodge and duel an opponent(s) that comes to stop her while split pushing. It really depends on how great an effect is has on her.

Perhaps alter her spell shield. In all honesty what separates the quick and the dead Sivir's is her spell shield so I have quite a few ideas around it.

Successfully blocking an ability with spell shield could grant CDR in some way temporarily or permanently. This would encourage Sivir's to engage after already blocking a lot of incoming damage by increasing her damage output.

Another spell shield idea is that successfully blocking and ability grants the next ability cast to stun the opponent. This would give her crowd control and really allow her to have a chance in a duel by really punishing the opponent for engaging. This works well with the zoning ability of her boomerang blade.

Yet another spell shield idea is to have it synergize with her passive by granting her rewards for different numbers of successful blocks. For instance, with arbitrary numbers for ease, the first five blocks grant additional movement speed for each block much like her passive is now based on level from my understanding. Blocks 6-15 could grant %CDR. Reaching 30 blocks adds another bounce to richochet or perhaps adds on hit effects to both the first and second targets hit (prioritizing Champions). Reaching 50 blocks grants her the ability to recast spellsheild while on cooldown after a successful block but with the recast not as a spell shield but rather to add a stun to her next ability that lands. If Rengar gets trophies that grant him abilities, why cant spell shield ownage grant Sivir new abilities. Another option for 50 blocks is to increase the range or damage of her boomerang blade. Keep in mind that these are arbitrary numbers that may or may not be realistic in a game and could be scaled to be realistic.

*Now I must admit I tried to incorporate a lot of ideas into one, but the main purpose is the individual ideas. *

The one I like the most is granting CDR based on Movement Speed as a passive for her ult (keeping % attack speed with ricochet still but as an active on ricochet). This would greatly improve her role to split push/waveclear. I find this a very interesting idea and is the one I like the most because it is simple and doesn't really involve lots of theoretical complications from item sets. Ironically if Azir's attack speed can scale with his CDR, why can't Sivir's CDR scale with her movement speed? After all, they are synergistic and of the same blood line aren't they!!!

I would like to hear any constructive thoughts of yours on the post and really hope that Riot considers changing her just a little more to allow us to play her the exciting way they intended us to!

72 Comments

RiotMeddler10/14/2014, 4:48:39 AM16 votes

Nice discussion. Been having some similar talks about a number of champions recently internally.

My personal take on Sivir is that her ult's the key source of niche definition for her. It changes how her entire team plays and how the enemy has to play against her by offering something other ADCs aren't able to (short of buying a Talisman perhaps, but that's not a practical choice). Her waveclear/pushing and safety via spellshield against enemies fishing for a catch are then clear secondary points of definition, not as unique, but certainly strong reasons to think about picking her with distinct impact on how the game plays out.

FFirebrandd10/14/2014, 6:04:34 PM5 votes

Really at this point Sivir should be reclassified as an AD mage instead of an ADC.

Her strengths don't line up at all with what people expect from an ADC (namely high single target dps through crits) and line up much closer to strengths found in mages (waveclear + AoE damage + some utility)

Besides her kit works so much better mid it isn't even funny, specifically her E. The ability to block one of your opponent's spells is not super useful when you are against someone who mostly does damage via auto attacks (the enemy ADC). However when ALL of your opponents damage is in their abilities (most midlaners) blocking one is much more impactful, especially if you block their one CC ability that their kits combo is dependent on.

Added to the previous point, in bot lane Sivir is probably going to be targeted by 6 abilities, 3 from the enemy adc 3 from the enemy support. E only allows you to block 16.67% of the abilities coming at you. Compare to mid lane where outside of jungle ganks, Sivir is going to be targeted by 3 abilities, allowing her to block 33.33% of them.

As for changing Sivir, I'm not really sure. I have had a quite a bit of success taking her mid so I'm not really sure she needs buffs. Though I must admit making her spell shield activate her passive on a successful block would be awesome. Also fixing the bug with hexdrinker/maw shield activating on a blocked ability would be nice.

Kingsgrave10/14/2014, 4:27:54 AM5 votes

Honestly, just increase her base MS and her passive MS gains. Focus on specific strengths over anything else.

Something like 335 -> 340 MS and passive upped to 20/35/50/65/80

Zok7210/14/2014, 7:14:32 PM3 votes

I actually think that the best place to work with ADC's is their itemization (I know, that wasn't a choice). Right now there are 4 types of carries but only 3 itemization lines, and only 2 of those lines are competitive. The carry types are Ratio Based (Varus, Graves, MF), Spell Weaving (Ezreal, Corki), Assassin (Twitch, Vayne), and Hypercarries (Tristana, Jinx). They are generally defined by the first item they buy, the old version of Bloodthirster for the ratio carries, trinity force for the spell weavers, BOTRK for the assassins, and Infinity Edge for the Hypercarries. Since the Bloodthirster rework there have been no options available for early raw AD spikes leaving ratio based carries unable to compete with the other groups. Furthermore, the itemization for spell weavers is relatively weak beyond trinity force (essence reaver, BC, and zephyr are pretty weak as you noted, I haven't tried Muramana on a spell weaver since the days of blue ezreal so i'm not sure about it's power level right now) so spell weavers that can't use trinity force to its fullest without other items are also left in a tough spot and none of the spell weavers scale particularly well into the late game. This is all very bad for Sivir, who is a mix of a ratio based and spell weaving ADC.

To improve Sivir (and a whole class of underplayed ADC's with her) I would suggest adding a new item to help ratio based ADC's with old Bloodthirster's impressive AD but no lifesteal, crit, or attack speed (so it won't be nearly as good on hypercarries). My first instinct is to have it built out of Double BF Swords, but that seems too hard to manage and therefore very snowbally (get it early and win or don't get it at all and lose hard). Other places I would look would be adding Armor Penetration and CDR and having it build out of BF Sword and Brutalizer which also allows ratio based carries to retain the early game power spike of the Brutalizer.

Furthermore there are nearly always unique active or passive abilities on items that cost this much. While a simple AD deathcap passive could work (+10-20% AD depending on balance) I think we could do something more interesting. Something like "dealing damage to any target increases damage dealt by abilities by X% (1% is my base idea but this can be tuned) for Y seconds (5 sec in my starting point here, easy to keep going during a fight/lane situation but hard to keep between waves or while roaming or other times while not fighting), stacking up to Z times (10 is my starting point here, but again this is very tuneable)". This not only accomplishes the goal of improving high AD ratio based carries, but also is much weaker on assassins (who will have a hard time both stacking it up and engaging stealthily) and does very little for hypercarries (who won't be using their skills after autoattacking). Furthermore, it synergizes well with the area of effect abilities that many of the ratio based carries have (sivir, graves, MF, Lucian) and does not copy or outclass any existing items.

Final item: Frenzied Butcher 100 AD 10% CDR 20 Armor Penetration Unique Passive- Berzerk: Dealing damage to any target increases physical damage dealt by abilities by 1% for 5 seconds, stacking up to a maximum of 10 times. Cost 3800 (BF 1550 + Brutalizer 1337 + 913 Combine Cost)

Though it costs the same as Infinity Edge, it is a much higher single item power spike and has an easier build path.

Alternately, Spell Weaver carries could be buffed in a way that is not as reliant on trinity force. Buffs to Muramna and Essence Reaver would help lift up some of the spell weaver carries without just making it a question of who builds triforce best and would also help out a host of mana gated champions who aren't marksmen.

TLDR: Let's try to make itemization better so Sivir and other carries who are in a bad spot right now can be better. If we just buff Sivir, then if items get fixed she'll be OP.

Earl Eulrich10/14/2014, 11:26:03 AM3 votes

Just buy item 3279 ? with 10% from runes, 5% from masteries, the boots and later on item 3508 you´re easily cdr-capped without loosing out on anything important.

You really don´t need AS-boots on Sivir, as you stated ST-Dps ist not the reason to pick her. You get her for her Initiation potential with the Ultimate and for her AoE-dmg. She works incredible well with Dive-comps. The game is not forcing her to build standard-adc, that´s the fault of players that don´t understand her niche and play accordingly.

If you want to emphasize her Niche and Unique-Gameplay you should leave her alone instead of trying to make a Carry out of her that works with every 08/15-SoloQ-comp.

G1aD0S10/15/2014, 7:53:39 AM3 votes

Sivir used to be the only ADC with super AoE. I'm kinda sad that people now only recognize her for her ulti that even her support can replace with. Imo, Sivir needs a tiny push towards more teamfight oriented AoE damage rather than utility. (ADC's job is dps which is hard with just two damage spells and extermely normal base ADC stats other than her low range.)

Also I like the idea/direction that Sivir is more effective dps wise when the enemy is clumped up.

Azlagor10/15/2014, 12:53:04 PM3 votes

I think Sivir herself is realy fine. The problem is just adc-items, if u don't go for a critbuilt u drop alot later on. I think caster-carrys all have some problems, as they lack a viable distinct builtpath. Currently they are more or less forced down the crit route but get outclassed by AA-carrys here.

Sivir imo should be profiting from ad+arpen+cdr focused builts, but she lacks effecktive itemchoices to really scale into late that way.(like most caster-carrys) if i would change anything, i would either give W some bonus physicak damage scaling with ad that can't crit and tie the scaling to the ult rank, so u gain a bit delayed powerspike for ad builts that doesn't work with crit. And more damage on W would also ad to her aoe/wavecöear niche.

Insanity Kiwi10/15/2014, 11:45:20 AM2 votes

What if her Q had to be caught like Gnar's, but instead of lowering her Q's cooldown it would however reset her W? (Maybe increase W base CD a little). This way Sivir would get a prolonged burst of power when she manages to pull of her power correctly, while the predictability would also add counterplay.

Eh, I think I like how Sivir Q has a straight, unchanging path out then has a variable path heading to wherever's Sivir's returned to, which is actually a unique (Ahri "EXCUSE ME!") and simple but interesting mechanic. The ability is an iconic part of Sivir and I personally find it great thinking about best use of the ability, due to it's high reward when used properly. I honestly don't think Q should be changed beyond numbers tweaks and underling changes like the recent hitbox change. But that's just my opinion.

Kowe The Ewok10/17/2014, 12:53:36 PM2 votes

I feel the main problem here is that not even Sivir players can agree on wether she should rather be shifted into a caster or carry path.

I believe that we've enough pure auto attackers. I'ld like to see her playing around with Q more, like a lowered cooldown as a reward for multiple hits so she can basically kite down her enemies while her ult is active and poke them with well aimed Qs.

Sadly the CD on Q is so high that even in a build focussed around CDR (and Arpen) Q is no source for consitent damage in teamfights.

ShadowKnight122410/14/2014, 5:54:39 AM2 votes

You don't actually need to spam your abilities to get waveclear with Sivir. Shiv is an amazing item choice on her because it synergises so well with Ricochet. When you get Shiv, all you need is one Ricochet casting and you can eat an entire wave on your own, without even needing any minions.

I agree with Meddler that they should add a little oomph to her ult. It feels really weak right now with all the different forms of CC that are available on the table. They should turn it into a low cooldown, spammable ability that gives a very short burst of AoE movespeed that she can use to help her whole team kite. Maybe with another bonus thing thrown into it. Bonus attack speed?

Oh, I know. Move her passive to her ult (and make it short-lasting but able to be spammed for 1-second bursts of movespeed and attackspeed), and then give her a new passive that doubles or triples the mana she receives from sources other than mana regen (such as her spell shield and essence reaver). That makes her a hybrid between an auto-attacker and a caster, constantly spamming her ricochet and ult to get bursts of speed and AoE damage. I imagine her core items would be TriForce, Essence Reaver and Shiv.

Kowe The Ewok10/15/2014, 5:33:50 PM2 votes

This topic made me want to play Sivir. I did. And I scored a Pentakill in my first match with her (today) :D Given, it was a normal an no ranked. http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/1746966691/22014328 This however is definitely not representitive for her. I'ld like to see the Q cooldown being lowered, that'ld deifnitely help her playing as an AD-carry-caster.