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ADCs as a class weakness should be that they are extremely fragile. They should never be able to 1v1

Theorchero·8/26/2017, 3:18:56 PM·72 votes·3,494 views

pretty much anyone. They should have high consistent damage that is designed to kill tanks but NOT be able to BURST squishies. Even other ADCs.

Essentially, ADCs should auto-lose to tanks, fighters, assassins, and mages if they have no peel (such as a 1v1) as that should be the defining weakness of their class. Obviously champions like Vayne will be better at 1v1ing due to less range, but by default if they are an auto-attack centered champion they should not be able to reliably 1v1 anyone on their team. They should be so fucking squishy that anyone looking at them sideways should be able to murder them with burst. ADCs should never be allowed to out-burst mages or assassins under any circumstances. They should rely on good, safe positioning and peeling teammates in order to do their job. They should not have warlords granting them massive lifesteal pre-mitigation, they should not have several forms of accessible % damage reduction without losing damage at all and should NOT spike at two fucking items.

Beyond this, they need some strengths as a class. They should have the highest consistent damage (DPS) that does NOT result in burst per second (BPS) that we have now - ADCs criting squishies feels like insane burst damage. This is extremely difficult to balance because a great deal of ADCs have late-game orientated weaknesses (supposed to be weak early) but due to circumstances beyond those specific champions, their weaknesses are irrelevant, so they are strong all game. Good example here being Tristana, Twitch, and to a lesser extent, Kog'maw.

This is a grand ideal, sure. How do we accomplish this? Well, I personally think that crit items should be geared towards dealing with tanks. This means that crit damage as itself should be LESS effective against squishy targets, but more effective against armored targets. A possible solution would be to make crit damage scale from 150% to 250% depending on the targets armor (but somehow not tied to stacking ad.) This is like giving ADCs % health damage (this is a very common tool used by Riot to make sure certain champions will always be able to do a certain % of damage to tanks without completely murdering squishies) except it has one strength that normal % health damage doesn't - it cannot promote a tank playstyle.

This means that tanks can do what they need to do - tank damage from the enemy team, but the class that's supposed to beat them, the ADCs, can, while the class that's supposed to shit on exposed ADCs, assassins, and to a lesser extent mages, can also do so. ADC items also need to be toned down in the amount of damage reduction granted to ADCs. This also opens up room for ADCs to specialize in deciding who to focus.

Enchanters are bound to be nerfed (as the amount of flat hp they grant ADCs just make their % reduction doubly effective) so we may not need to completely cripple those items. However, we need to make ADCs have more offensive and defensive centric items. Shit like GA should be catered towards bruisers, not ADCs. Shit like PD should grant more movement speed and attack speed but limited damage reduction, if any at all.

Lifesteal on ADCs should need to be specced into. Give ADs the ability to purchase bloodthirster and attack speed to better be able to kill squishies if they want, or spec more into crit to be able to more effectively deal with tanks. Right now ADCs as a class being so strong (due to multiple reasons, shit like enchanters, strong tanks, retarded itemization, etc) means that it's horrible for everyone.

ADCs, ask yourselves. Do you like having 3-4 people bot before 15 minutes a lot of the time? Do you enjoy ALWAYS having a jungler ganking your lane every fucking minute? Do you like being destroyed by that ADC who managed to get a BF sword before you, then get IE, and then be fucking impossible to deal with to the point that it's hard to farm under turret? No one enjoys that shit. Mid laners don't enjoy ADCs fucking up their mid lane at 15 minutes. Top laners don't enjoy ADCs showing up top with 2-3 kills while being impossible to shut down due to the peel and disengage shit like Tristana/Janna has. ADCs being this strong creates such an unhealthy relationship that it warps the entire game. ADCs being huge early means that towers, dragons, barons, everything gets taken quickly. Games end in 25-30 minutes because one side stomps so hard that games are boring. You know whose going to win within the first 5-10 minutes 90% of the time.

It sucks, and it's extremely frustrating that Riot cares so goddamn much about their precious esports that they let this shit fly for several patches instead of fucking addressing it and tuning as they went so it creates an INTERESTING experience in esports.

84 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer8/26/2017, 3:50:49 PM39 votes

So you're saying if the ADC dodges the skillshots, cleanses the CC, heals at the right moment, hits all their skill shots, they should still lose?

That the 0/5 assassin should just bumble in, mess up their ult, miss their abilities, and come away with the kill just because?

Because that's what "in any circumstance" means. I for one would much prefer it if my ability actually meant something, and that knowing how to play the game well has value.

Daddy Braum8/26/2017, 3:33:36 PM23 votes

Another "I don't main this role but it out does me so nerf it" post

i cant move wtf8/26/2017, 6:58:39 PM14 votes

This thread being upvoted isn't just proof Riot should completely ignore these boards, it might also provide the most compelling argument against the existence of an intelligent design to date.

Fütanari8/26/2017, 8:36:39 PM12 votes

I think people are only upvoting this cause they want adc's gutted. This is one of the stupidest threads I've seen. That would destroy champs like Vayne

PePsiLemoNN8/26/2017, 7:29:34 PM9 votes

They should have high consistent damage that is designed to kill tanks but NOT be able to BURST squishies. Even other ADCs.

Logic. How can they deal HIGH CONSISTEND DAMAGE to tanks and not burst someone with 0 defensive items while they have all damage items?

Skorch8/27/2017, 2:51:37 AM8 votes

This is the most roundabout balancing i have ever seen.

" ADCs should never be allowed to out-burst mages or assassins under any circumstances." But they dont. If an assassin gets on an ADC, and they arent 13/2 (a point a lot of people dont bring up) that ADC is dead. "They should not have warlords granting them massive lifesteal pre-mitigation" "Warlords ... massive lifesteal pre-mitigation" Wut. "A possible solution would be to make crit damage scale from 150% to 250% depending on the targets armor (but somehow not tied to stacking ad.)" Wut.

I get that people think ADCs are overtuned. But this is just... excessive. You are trying to completely rewrite all of league of legends, and how most of it works. To nerf a class... "Maybe we should Nerf IE and Statik Shiv, so that ADCs will be around their 4th item before powerspike?" "Nah fuck that shit, lets make crits scale like Lethality only based on enemy Armor. Also not affected by building AD. Also under any circumstances 'ANY' meaning incredoubly fed, incredoubly well positioned, anything, ADCs should deal damage to squishies"

WTF did i just read

Teridax688/26/2017, 6:21:03 PM8 votes

This might not be a popular opinion to all, but I think marksmen as a class should have an advantage against tanks and fighters, even if it shouldn't be as binary as auto-winning or auto-losing 1v1s: marksmen specialize in DPS and range, which should give them an edge against a class that specializes in durability and disruption (i.e. tanks, who shouldn't have the damage alone to duel a DPS class), and a class that specializes in DPS and survivability (i.e. fighters, who should be taking a few hits before they can get in and start the duel proper). However, I also completely agree that marksmen should be at a disadvantage against burst, i.e. assassins and mages. More generally, I think some marksmen should be great duelists, and some should be great teamfighters, but no champion should be both at the same time, as that simply generates no situations where they're at a disadvantage, as is the case right now with many marksmen.

I also question the need for marksmen to have the best DPS: sure, marksmen are a class specializing in DPS, but so are fighters, and I think one of the reasons why marksmen are considered mandatory is because nobody else can compete with their persistent damage, not even the one other class who's supposed to have it as a core strength. I think it would be much better to define advantages in pairs: marksmen have DPS and range, and it's the combination that makes them uniquely valuable in team comps, alongside potential competitors like mages, who have range and burst, and fighters, who have DPS and survivability. For almost every feature you want to choose, i.e. range, DPS, burst, survivability, disruption, and so on, there should be at least two classes that should cover that feature, and provide something on the side to complete your comp. Because of this, I think marksmen and fighters should have about the same amount of DPS overall.

On the topic of itemization, I agree that marksmen should not be able to get more survivability just by purchasing damage items, but then again, I don't think marksmen should have access to survivability through items at all. This is the exact same problem as tanky assassins going for HP-heavy builds and losing their core weakness, except for some reason this kind of issue is permitted to exist tenfold on marksmen. When you itemize for life steal, you are making yourself more durable against DPS by healing a portion of it off, and when you itemize for damage reduction and Guardian Angel, you are making yourself more durable against burst by increasing your health pool and putting a hard stop to the enemy's burst window. Drain tanks like Vladimir and Warwick have been massively nerfed, rebalanced and reworked in the past for having self-healing that was considered binary and insufficiently gated: not only are they meant to be able to drain tank, unlike marksmen, their self-healing was, and still is, only a fraction of the sustain marksmen are capable of. Additionally, damage reduction is immune to penetration and reduction, unlike resists, meaning marksmen can practically double their health pool with the right setup (i.e. DD, PD and Knight's Vow), without getting that damage reduction devalued, and without having to trade off any core damage stats.

The reason why all of this durability on marksmen has been considered acceptable is because marksmen typically get focused the hardest: because they're the VIP of either team, they often get 4- or 5-manned, sometimes even during the laning phase. It is obvious that, in situations like these, any squishy champion would die far too quickly, which is why the OP is correct that the dominance of marksmen in League hurts marksmen as well. By all rights, marksmen should not have any durability or survivability in their builds, unless they're buying another class's item and sacrificing a lot of power for it, but as long as they continue to be hard-focused, playing them then will feel horrible. For their own sake, marksmen need to be brought down to a level where other members of their team have the potential to be equally, if not more valuable, which would make tunnel-visioning on them wasteful and undesirable.

Zero Shingetsu8/26/2017, 4:14:34 PM5 votes

Since I've come back, ADCs can consistently heal more damage per second than any bruiser can deal out. And that's just not right. When I have a ton of armor and I inflict Grievous Wounds, ADCs shouldn't be able to 1v1 me at equal level. The biggest problem with League is its lifesteal mechanic. They nerfed Thornmail. It's time to nerf Lifesteal. Make it a set value of health recovered per hit, scaling with level. Or even a percentage that scales with missing health.

An Enemy Sutando8/27/2017, 3:00:48 AM5 votes

While I do agree that ADCs need at least some nerfs, doing what you suggested would be like burning a whole forest down just because there's a single diseased tree in it.

Karfuss8/26/2017, 9:20:32 PM5 votes

Their interaction is relatively fine. If they outplay an assassin, they deserve to win.

The problem is that they are scaling too much, too quickly. Whoever wins bot lane, typically wins the game. That alone shows that their items are simply too strong (hello crit), and the fact assassins get one-two shot before they even have a CHANCE. That is the main thing.

Although we can all agree that ADCs should not have survivability items at all, and IF they do, they should take a hit to damage. No item should be granting damage, while protecting from poor positioning.

item 3026 needs reverting. item 3812 item 3046 should not exist and needs removing. Lifesteal should not trigger on bonus damage, or crit damage. Those would be the first changes I'd make for Season 8, I'd leave damage alone and see how it goes.

CleverCactus8/26/2017, 5:33:22 PM4 votes

"champions like Vayne will be better at 1v1ing due to less range"

Vayne doesn't have less range. Sure she doesn't have any skillshots but she has the same range as most ranged champs.

Syche8/27/2017, 6:30:55 AM4 votes

here's a different idea. imo it's a better idea but YMMV on that bit. split ADCs back into diverse classes & get rid of the idea that all ADCs will be late game hyperscaling monsters. let different ADCs have different power spikes again.

duelist adcs (lucian, kindred, vayne) caster adcs (jhin, MF, ezreal, corki) utility adcs (ashe, varus, kalista) hyper-scaling adcs (tristana, kog'maw, twitch) siege adcs (caitlyn, sivir, etc)

it's pretty easy to fit the rest of the ADCs into one of those category.

and then balance the classes of ADCs respectively rather then having all ADCs be hyperscaling late game monsters.

SpecterVonBaren8/27/2017, 4:12:09 PM2 votes

ADC's shouldn't have burst ever at any time. Unless they're someone like Jhin who gives up DPS for burst then the class that will always scale into big DPS monsters should never have burst.

Mecha Incognito8/26/2017, 4:08:10 PM2 votes

Your title is a little wrong - You should be saying Marksmen, saying adc can include champions like Yasuo and Darius.

I think they have to overhaul AD items yet again, but with much more emphasis on attack speed & maybe a little on critical strike (even though I hate it), and much less emphasis on AD total. Then they should adjust ad ratios on some marksmen that are more spell based so they don't just get hard nerfed.

Atleast then, they'll still have DPS against tanks, but won't be popping squishy champions with ease.

Can't have high attack speed, double damage auto attacks AND high amounts of bonus AD without some issues arising, surely.

ahferroin78/27/2017, 1:21:01 AM2 votes

As a general rule, there are certain cases where they absolutely should win regularly, and some where they should go even. A marksman absolutely should be able to beat a mage if they dodge properly, and should absolutely be able to win solo against most supports. The issue is that they are winning against the one class that's supposed to beat them reliably.