We should make reasons to pick Sunfire Cape over Cinderhulk.

BeerOfRoot4843·4/22/2015, 9:27:13 PM·50 votes·4,452 views

Both of these items are good, but Cinderhulk seems to be so good that it's created a smite top lane cult. If we give Sunfire it's own unique features, maybe people will hesitate before making their decision.

Sunfire Cape should be able to toggle on or off, but Cinderhulk shouldn't.

We could raise it's stats and gold cost, or give it cooldown reduction, since I don't think tanks have a whole lot of cdr.

One of these two things would be optimal; doesn't have to be both at once.

88 Comments

Silents4294/23/2015, 1:02:00 AM9 votes

How about leave the item alone?

More damage, Armor, and you don't need to waste a summoner for it in comparison to the Cinderhulk.

Were better off changing a aspect of smite to discourage outside jungle use.

Desmond Law4/23/2015, 3:35:36 AM9 votes

Sunfire Cape Unique Active: Sunfire's Bask: For the next 10 seconds, the burn will deal additional magic damage equal to 5% of your bonus health.

qetzel4/23/2015, 12:33:00 PM7 votes

Why do we want smite out of the top lane? I like the additional strategies it can bring, such as jungle control. The goal for this season is STRATEGIC DIVERSITY! I am in favour of balancing champions around having that item to preserve this.

Partholonian4/23/2015, 2:01:01 AM6 votes

The main advantage is you get +1 summoner spell, unless you're a jungler. Really, that ought to be enough. If it isn't, the problem is probably with the recently added item, not the one that's had the same cost/stats/buildpath for like 2 seasons.

Cinderhulk has already been nerfed relative to the patch playoffs were played on. I think Riot should let players adjust before immediately nerfing again.

I don't think tanks have a whole lot of cdr.

Not sure if serious. item 3024 item 3067 and all their upgrades have CDR. Tanks probably have more CDR than any other role in the game.

aperson14/23/2015, 6:04:52 AM3 votes

Sunfire now deals damage to structures.

ßongs4/23/2015, 12:29:59 PM2 votes

I agree

Arcade Andrew4/23/2015, 4:32:18 PM2 votes

sunfire cape has 25 base dmg and cinder only has 24 c;

manbearswine4/23/2015, 5:08:13 AM2 votes

How about we make it so sunfire cape doesn't require you to own a summoner spell you have little use of and doesn't force you to spend 700 for almost nothing before you can upgrade it to a useful item?

Oh wait...

Sir Nope4/23/2015, 7:04:44 AM2 votes

As a main jungle-tank ( Nautilus to be exact), the new TP/Smite toplane makes me nervous. Not because of Cinderhulk (which I do agree it carries a bit too much power), but because of how this could affect jungle tanks in general.

Cinderhulk has made the jungle so much more bearble for tanks, and no other item since S3 has come close. The problem with that is that the now-viable jungle tanks have to rely on it to be viable. Every change to it that affects Shyvana or Hecarim also affects Nautilus and Zac and Maokai . Add on the history of Rito overreacting to S3's all-bruiser/tank meta (which was indeed a problem, do not misunderstand me) by changing up much of the tank items and the jungle leaving only five viable junglers for the S4 meta and you may begin to see my concern.

I do agree that changes need to be made to Cinderhulk. I believe that the item needs to affect the more support-heavy tanks instead of ones with high base damage. Therefore, I'm looking at the following possible ideas for changes to Cinderhulk:

• +25 Health (300 > 325), -5% Bonus Health (25% > 20%). That bonus %health is indeed quite a bit too much, but changes have to be made slowly here, since it does aid the intended users as it should.

• -50% current Passive damage (16 + [1 per Level] > 8 + [.5 Per level]), add "+120% bonus damage against impaired enemies." The toplaners who are currently using Cinderhulk effectively have great damage and great mobility, but carry little CC. Changing the damage of the item so that it gives its max damage to more CC-intense users should shift some of the power away from unintended champions. This will need to be monitered, because while it does affect laning phase, a proper team could still allow Hecarim to run it at full damage courtesy of an Amumu running item 3116 .

These are my thoughts regarding the subject. Any questions?

Ninja Edit: As for Sunfire Cape, it's fine where it's at. The stats it goves plus its consistent Passive damage is enough for its intended role.

Edit 2, Son of Edit: I realized I goofed on the "% Bonus damage against impaired enemies," so I went and fixed that to the number I was considering. The idea is to have it do weak damage unless CC is involved, since the current toplane abusers who can use it effectively during laning phase have little, if any, CC. Also, for any Rioters reading this, is the game programmed to recognize what source a particular CC effect is coming from? Because if so, "+130% Bonus damage to enemies you are imparing" would be a considerable option too.

Nilok4/23/2015, 7:11:10 AM2 votes

I think a big reason that Cinderhunk is being chosen so much is because it is the only item that gives a %HP bonus since it is almost always being taken on bruiser/tank champions who benefit from HP or melee champions that need to stay in the thick of it.

If Sunfire Cape or another item gave a similar %HP bonus people may choose that instead.

Big Bang Bob4/23/2015, 12:11:08 PM2 votes

Why can't both of them toggle? It's quite annoying to be walking through the jungle to a lane, only to realize I have a pack of wolves following me.

Chespin20134/22/2015, 10:38:58 PM2 votes

so u want to raise the gold price of a junglers item? i dont think that solves the issue here

Bethor Kookalian4/23/2015, 1:20:36 PM2 votes

Cinderhulk already doesn't give armor(leaving them vulnerable to BoRK moreso than other top laners) and requires a dedicated summoner spell with specifc use cases. That's already differentiation, isn't it?

mi ramfan4/23/2015, 2:06:14 PM2 votes

There is a reason to take Sunfire Cape over Cinderhulk in top lane. Cinderhulk costs you either Flash or Teleport (both of which are essential for top lane) and Sunfire doesn't. Cinderhulk also forces you to waste tons of gold on jungle stats you can't use, while Sunfire gives you straight stats from the beginning.

Dr Poro4/23/2015, 3:09:27 PM2 votes

Sunfire used to be a good first defensive item because it was cheap and the passive was strong early game. They nerfed the early game passive by making it scale with level, but now it's bad early and bad lategame because it's slot inefficient. Making it a bigger item would certainly help. I don't think CDR should be added here. There are enough cdr items for tanks item 3110 item 3025 item 3065 item 3190 granted that you don't want to build them in any situation, though. I would just raise the armor or health stats and increase the cost appropriately. Or... make it insane and deal %hp damage instead of flat! (could actually work imo)

AFK Push4/23/2015, 3:52:42 PM2 votes

Either it becomes another item 3082 build path, or they add something else to it like item 3801 for overall more health and some health regen on it.

Teridax684/23/2015, 12:38:55 AM1 votes

What about having item 3068 inflict percent health-based damage? item 3725 's flat damage makes sense because it's meant to encourage tanks to stick to priority targets, i.e. squishy damage-dealers, but Sunfire Cape is picked in top lane to duel with other top laners. Having it damage opponents based on their current/maximum health would give it a niche instead of making it just a weaker Cinderhulk with armor.