An unpopular opinion: ADC as a class is the most feast or famine in the entire game

Toastersaot·3/15/2017, 7:47:08 PM·65 votes·3,788 views

Now I know this definitely going to be an unpopular opinion, but I think ADC as a class in general (there are a few exceptions that I will get to later) are probably the most Feast or Famine in the entire game.

My case:

Point One: Most ADCs have only one design goal, to deal damage.

Most ADCs have only one purpose, which is sustained damage from ranged auto attacks. They are designed with that one purpose, so when they get ahead or get to late game, no class in the game outperforms them in the damage category. On the flip side, if an ADC falls behind, they can't do the damage that their kits are designed to do, and most have little to no utility to assist their team from behind. That is why Jhin is so good, because he has a way of doing relevant early damage with his Lethality build while being somewhat useful when behind with his long range Poke and snares. This also true of Varus , who has a slow, long range Poke, and a high impact utility ultimate. Ashe is the late game version of the two, having a utility packed passive along with decent range Poke, a global stun lasting up to 3.5 seconds, and a strong vision control ability on her E. In constrast, what does Lucian do when he falls behind? He has his ult for waveclear? A small movement speed boost? Basically any Mage can do what he does when they are behind and still have hard CC and higher base damages on their spells.

Point Two: An ADCs survivability (specifically Crit based ADCs) is based off of how much damage they deal.

An ADCs survivability, at least to a certain extent, is based on how much damage they deal, which is also associated with how much gold they get. I am of course talking about lifesteal. Items like item 3072 and item 3153 heal the user for a % of damage dealt. This means that in order to receive healing the ADC must also have decent damage, which means they must have AD, Crit, AS, and if against a fed tank some % Armor Pen. If an ADC falls behind they become a source of unreliable damage (Crit) that has poor utility and base stats, and cannot survive because the most defense they can put into a build early is item 3047 .

Point Three: A traditional Crit based Marksman's 'Feast' is getting to Late Game, where they are bursting tanks with 6 autos and carries with 2.

A traditional Crit Based marksman is oppressive to play against late game. Although they themselves are rather squishy, their damage is absurd, especially since it is not tied to cooldowns or mana (in most casesJinx ) and their sustain is crazy because of how much damage they deal.

TL;DR ADC as a whole is the most feast or famine class in the game. Their kits are only meant to do damage, and although they can be oppressive when ahead or in the late game, their poor utility (for most of them) means they can do next to nothing when they are behind.

64 Comments

LordOfTheLeague3/15/2017, 8:55:59 PM7 votes

It was there in front of us all this time and we didn't even realize that the marksmen class is almost broken by design.

DunkinNoobs3/15/2017, 8:23:53 PM6 votes

Incorrect. Bruisers are the most feast or famine champs in the game. When ahead, they're unkillable monsters that you can't escape and can burst any squishy with ease while outdueling everyone else. When behind, they're too squishy to do their job on the team and they likely can't 1v1 anyone either.

ZT Xperimentor3/16/2017, 8:02:11 AM5 votes

Not to mention the non-caster marksmen are basically the most stat-check champions in the game.

charge attack3/15/2017, 9:56:29 PM4 votes

Actually mostly melee champions are feast or famine. If ADCs play it right they don't have to ever get in dangerous range and STILL dps. Like you can often DPS the front line in a fight even if you're 0/7. Whereas a 0/7 let's say Fiora will literally do nothing because if she gets in range to attack their frontline, she also gets in range of their back line and she dies INSTANTLY (lower leveled = less tanky).

Also melee champions get punished way harder in lane if they get behind.

ADC however is the MOST team reliant class. A 7/0 Fiora will have more impact than a 7/0 ADC besides vayne.

Like when you're 7/0 as an ADC, you need your frontline to just run into their team so you can kill everyone, but if they're not willing to do that you can't do anything solo. Also if let's say the 2/0 riven decides to flash stun you and your support doesn't realize what's happening, you're instantly dead and your lead means nothing.

Pretty much as the ADC you really don't decide the pace of the game UNLESS you're Varus/Jhin/Ashe that can actually engage good fights.

TL;DR: Ranged champions will inherently never be MORE feast/famine than melee champions. ADCs are team reliant but they are not feast/famine.

HateDaddy3/16/2017, 1:04:36 AM3 votes

I'd say you're about 30% correct. From the stand point of function, an ADC does only serve one purpose realistically with the exception of Sivir/Ashe who bring legit strong utility to a team. However, adcs scale so hard that even when behind, they scale so exponentially faster than most classes with items that they become real damage threats pretty quickly, even when behind. Consider that they also don't rely on getting ahead, this makes that claim about them being feast or famine untrue mostly. Adcs are perfectly content with a farm game, true feast or famine champions aren't. And that's because a slow paced game of farming favors adcs the most and this isn't the case for feast or famine champions.

I think their natural design is problematic and seeing armor pen/lethality builds work has convinced me the option of removing crit is realistic because it was once believed crit in addition to AS/%armor pen was the only consistent way to DPS a tank down. And while both do comparable jobs, I'd argue the lethality/armor pen builds are much healthier in nature with more consistent scaling. Now naturally it would need to be tuned differently but I believe this work much better and be healthier. And I think while this wasn't the point you were trying to make, this may be a better explanation along your lines of thinking.

Great Muta3/15/2017, 7:51:48 PM3 votes

I'd say ADC's are pretty much famine and famine. You are always the easiest person to kill in the game, you will be 1-3 levels behind everyone else early on, you have little hp/armor, no escapes, your early game is turds, your items are expensive, you will gangbanged multiple times, you will have to deal with awful supports who steal your cs and you might be relevant by 40 minutes, if the game goes that long.

You can make mistakes with a lot of other roles, but as an ADC, you have to outfarm everyone else and with one slip in the wrong direction, you are deleted. Even being ahead by 10 kills or 150+ cs often makes no difference.

Joek91003/16/2017, 6:07:00 AM3 votes

I agree, it used to be that if you were behind as an ADC you could come back through farming and maybe getting assists or stealing kills if the game lasted long enough, but now that games don't last very long it's almost impossible. You just have to wait until next game. It doesn't help that since damage creep is at an all time high if you're behind as an ADC and you can't deal more damage than your opponent you pretty much die.

Ahristocats3/15/2017, 9:13:23 PM3 votes

*most of

some have utility which is nice, and i think every adc should have utility at the expense of losing damage BUT NOT THE SAME UTILITY, or they would be all similar

Teridax683/16/2017, 12:18:51 AM3 votes

I agree with a lot of this, though I think it's also worth mentioning that pushing power and objective control are also marksman strengths, and can be something they used to be able to fall back to when they were behind (not so much now, because any lead tends to be winner-takes-all and you can't really push when behind). More so than assassins, everything that makes a marksman accomplish their function is dependent on itemization, and if they're behind, they just make themselves less and less likely to contribute in the future. Whereas practically every other class, including not just fighters but also sustain-based mages, got their damage-to-healing changed to be more consistent (mages even had spell vamp removed as a result), marksmen still rely on life steal, whose healing is not only based on all of their damage stats, but also the enemy's durability. Marksmen may have received an update, but they still have some serious design issues that have not been resolved yet, including their reliance on crit, an unreliable RNG stat that makes them even more binary.

With that said, I think the issue comes more from the way marksmen progress throughout the game, rather than their core design. A big issue, for example, is that marksmen were made to be the best in the late game by default, when power curves are now allocated on a per-champion basis, and not assigned to an entire class. "Late game" also used to mean around the 30-40 minute mark, when now it usually starts at 20 minutes, and compressing marksmen's power curves around that shorter time span has simply made them more unstable. On the flipside, there are things marksmen can do even now that no other class can do as well: Dragon, Baron and pretty much any tower, for example, tend to be easy pickings for a marksman when under the protection of their team, whereas tanks, supports and even some mages and assassins will take much more time to take them down. Pushing is definitely something most classes can do now, but it's the only thing marksmen (and some fighters) can do without having to sacrifice their cooldowns or any kind of resource. If marksmen were made more consistent and were each given their own distinct power curve, they'd likely still be very desirable on top of being healthier, though I also hope for a day when marksmen are about as essential as any other class (i.e. important and a heavy tradeoff if you don't pick them, but not to the point of being mandatory every game).

Karn Bishop3/16/2017, 1:32:38 PM2 votes

Yeah this just is not true because if they were that feast or famine running ADC would be an optional thing you see someone do every 2-6 games with you usually seeing support/mage or bruiser/support bot lane, this would also result in us seeing more traditional supports more often such as taric or sona since lockdown is more important to bruiser guys in general to do stuff.

You want to know what role is truly feast or famine? AP junglers they either get ahead massively early and rule the game or get crushed and scream in frusteration as every single camp they have gets cleared by the enemy jungler and you can't do anything about it.

flibitydoo3/15/2017, 10:01:34 PM2 votes

I'd say quite the opposite

most ranged adcs are designed to not be the most feast or famine because, by nature they are ranged. this means that even if they are behind and cannot win a 1 v 1 all-in, they can still play passive and last hit, they can still waveclear, they can still pick up CS to stay semi-relevant.

on the other hand you have like tryndamere, who if he's losing lane, he can't last hit the minions, because he can only attack things 200 units in front of him, and if he walks up to the creep wave, he risks having that riven eviscerate him for 50-100% of his life bar (and possibly die and further fall behind). all because he's a kill (or two) behind. oh, and unlike a ranged champion, he can't even last hit minions under his own tower without taking harass.

the meta has gotten a lot more aggressive as of recent, so it seems like surviving the laning phase seems even more impossible as an adc (what with all the tower diving and mage "supports"), but someone like ezreal is near impossible to shut out from the farming aspect of the game.

PrinceOfStorms3/16/2017, 12:34:47 AM2 votes

An ADCs survivability, at least to a certain extent, is based on how much damage they deal, which is also associated with how much gold they get. I am of course talking about lifesteal. Items like bloodthirster and blade of the ruined king heal the user for a % of damage dealt

BotRK shouldn't give lifesteal and bloodthirster should be removed. Or Riot should add Will of the Ancients back into the game (and leave Vlad as-is). It's only fair that AP mages get spell vamp on items if ADCs get to keep lifesteal.

Brascus3/16/2017, 4:49:07 PM2 votes

Most balance problems right now are because a lot of the old paradigm of design is simply stat sticks, with range based mechanics, you're either in range or you're not type champs. All of Riots new champs are moving away from this. This problem can't be tuned, you'll have to wait for AA's and point clicks as cc/damage sources to be phased out.

This is what Riot refers to as 'play patterns', because having the above being so pervasive is very predictable.

Graves Jhin are really well designed, as in if there are tuning problems it's solvable without dumpstering the champ.

If you tried to tune Vayne she would be dumpstered because she's a ranged stat stick, which is why they're so tentative to ever do that.

WiegrafOfValor3/16/2017, 5:39:37 PM2 votes

An ADC can still kill you in 3s even when behind since they can keep up with gold due farm. So yes they need gold to be efficient, but still they have a reasonable income even when losing their lanes, thus they can't actually experience "famine".

Most of the ADC mains don't know how it is to solo lane, so I don't think much of ADC main threads deserve some credibility.

Hexs Fortune3/16/2017, 8:07:42 PM1 votes

Point One: Most ADCs have only one design goal, to deal damage.

Most adc have many design goals that complement their dealing damage

Point Two:An ADCs survivability (specifically Crit based ADCs) is based off of how much damage they deal.

Positioning is the number one survivability tool, not drain tanking

Point Three: A traditional Crit based Marksman's 'Feast' is getting to Late Game, where they are bursting tanks with 6 autos and carries with 2.

A full build carry is designed to kill anything given time. This is not a feast condition, it is inevitable once they get their percent pen, attack speed, and crit going

SH Azykan3/16/2017, 3:32:04 AM1 votes

Ashe Caitlyn Twitch Varus when they start falling behing if they have another ad champ doing well should really buy an early cleaver + runaans they have the easiest way to stack the armor shred out of any class and they can still pump out damage doing so. item 3085 item 3071 item 3046 item 3156 item 3143 item 1001 is a perfectly fine alternative build to swap to imo, gives them bulk to not just repeatedly get deleted as easy, still has okay damage, and stacks shred on the enemy team while putting out that damage so their other champs like a zed can do their jobs still.

HOWEVER None of them do this They still go 100% squishy, usually not even buying lifesteal, then proceed to become a glorified minion dying instantly to whoever looks at them funny while doing barely any damage themselves...doesnt help every time they start using an item for safety riot guts the item though (item 3053 )

Leaf on Bush3/16/2017, 7:41:57 AM1 votes

Well.... they are ranged, they need to dps, they don't need to burst down something, they pretty much always stay as safe as possible and often have 1 or 2 other champions peeling for them. I don't really see this "feast or famine" idea leading anywhere.

KETSU03/16/2017, 1:21:33 PM1 votes

lets not forget that they will probably have an anti-playmaking support that'll make it a pain in the ass to deal with them

SlashStriker3/16/2017, 7:37:15 PM1 votes

most ADCs finish their laning phase as 1/6/n

how can you die so many times since you are ranged champion. ADC in general love to trade for some reason despite their death streak.

If you die 2 times and you got no kills then maybe you should consider stop trying to make trades even if it costs you a turret and focus on farming. Instead most ADCs despite their death ratio continue trading with enemy champions continuing feeding their opponents

Shaco Psycho3/16/2017, 8:06:24 PM1 votes

I completely understand your point. But, is that a bad thing? The alternative I see is upping ADC's early game damage and lowering their late game damage. I don't think anyone wins in that scenario.

Hell, I'm an ADC main, and if I fall behind, I'm by no means famine. A lot of ADC's (especially low ELO's) focus too much on group mid and while sometimes this is necessary, if you're already behind you're only putting yourself behind. In fact, I would argue that if you are behind as an ADC, that grouping mid is just prolonging your loss. What you need to do to get back in the game is farm jg camps and side lanes while the rest of your team fends of the enemy team as long as they can.

Is this an unpopular opinion at low ELO? Hell yea. Is it the way to claw back in to the game and win? Hell yea.

As you said, ADC's are supposed to become late game carries and the only way you're going to get yourself there is to keep farming especially if you're behind. Grouping mid and getting a few CS here and there isn't going to get you there.

Anyways, that was a bit of a tangent :P. My point is, as an ADC, even in this meta if you fall behind early, you don't have to let yourself become famine.

I played a ranked game a week ago, every lane lost, they got a baron and most of the drags, and they were at our nexus towers. But, because I kept farming as Ashe and hoping my team could fend them off until I could get my items, we ended up winning 2 late game team fights (Very much due to a nearly full build Ashe adc) at the end of the game which we won off of. Sure, I was famine at the start, but by the end I was feasting.

Perhaps ADC's should be labelled as Feast and Famine rather than Feast or Famine :3

Mizuki Zahra3/15/2017, 7:49:37 PM1 votes

exactly why I started to play apc more