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Karthus, Boots of Swiftness, Hexdrinker, and AD Manaless Champions Analysis

GAME lS A JOKE·3/31/2016, 9:22:24 AM·152 votes·11,021 views

A: Karthus is one of the oldest champions in the game. He was part of the card game before this online game even came out. He was released into the game on June 12th of 2009 if I recall correctly. 1 out of every 200 normal/ranked games combined I will see 1 enemy Karthus player. Despite this disappointing and somewhat inaccurate statistic by me, I and a few others still keep him alive even in Season 6. This post is originally motivated by a Karthus Survey I got two weeks ago from LoL after finishing a game with Karthus. The survey asked if I was satisfied with his kit and whether or not a rework was in favor. The oldschool nostalgia part of me wants to keep Karthus the same way, but there is also a part of me that would be interested with some non-visual and actual game-play reworks.

Karthus used to be known to be a terrifying lich in the earlier seasons. I remember scarletdoom and Reginald were the first two in NA back in Season 1 to bring light on him. After a while though, the newer champions were stronger and the kits were all designed to maneuver around Karthus. Many people in ranked dodge because they don't like when I pick Karthus. They're so used to seeing champions like Zed Yasuo Ahri (and recently an ADC mid... shame on you riot. Corki ) in the mid lane. While it is true that it's harder on my end to carry because of how unpopular and easily countered Karthus is, I have not given up on him. I have had many toxic players tell me to 'Uninstall and never play Karthus again' over the past 6 seasons, but because I ignored them and have played him consistently, I somehow manage to make him work.

Although recently, he has indirectly taken a huge hit. One of his core items is building item 3116 (3200g), mostly since:

-Karthus has no escapes other than Flash (sometimes Teleport can be used if the enemy has no interrupts to stop it) -No hard cc's other than his Wall which Slows. -Karthus Q is very Low-Cooldown so Rylais is usually a good item to rush on him.

B:

Champions with no escapes and only a slow like, MissFortune KogMaw Karthus are suffering from 3 major changes recently. The only way these champions can out-play is by not only having flawless positioning in high elo (due to not having any escapes other than Flash), but also being able to use their Slows to close the gap effectively and secure kills this way.

  1. Patch 5.13 implemented that Slows no longer Stack, which I was fine with for Karthus because Wall + Rylais was almost the equivalent of a Wither Slow from Nasus .

  2. item 3009 (900g) is not only argueably one of the top 2 fastest boots, but also provides a significant 25% slow-resistance factor.

  3. Under Masteries there is now Swiftness under the Resolve Tree: Offers 15% Tenacity AND 15% Slow Resistance. You can only imagine how toxic this can get with champions like Irelia Udyr and anyone who combines this with item 3009 or item 3111 .

For a mere 900g, you can completely negate out both item 3116 and the core-kits of champions who only have 1 slow and no escapes. This is way too cost-effective for any elo game-play.

C: item 3155 : Is there truly a Mage Counterpart to this 1300g Item?

I'm glad to hear that this item is being nerfed on the PBE along with many threads I recently reviewed this month under Gameplay dealing with Hexdrinker. Buying item 3191 doesn't cut it anymore.

item 3155 offers: -AD an Offensive Stat -Magic Resist a Defensive Stat -A shield that automatically procs for you 100% of the time (meaning you don't have to activate it via pressing 1-6) 110-280 Magic Shield that NOT ONLY gets quantified by the MR on the Item, BUT ALSO gets quantified by the Total MR you have which usually almost every role takes Glyph Magic Resist runes for how effective they are. Some may argue 'oh 110 isn't that much' but realistically if you multiply 110 x the MR factor, it represents a higher number than displayed. This shield is anti-mage-assassin because it makes securing kills significantly harder the earlier you buy this 1300g item. This is why AD Champions like Corki Zed Yasuo are exclusively played in the higher elos recently.

item 3191 1200g some may claim is the mage counterpart but it offers:

-AP an Offensive Stat -Armor a Defensive Stat -Absolutely no Shield that Auto Procs 100% of the time and isn't quantified by NOT ONLY the armor on the item, but possible armor from Runes/Masteries. -The item starts off very weak in comparison to Hexdrinker which is already at it's full power from purchase. You have to farm 30 minions before it's of any use. It also doesn't prevent AD Mids from securing/finishing off kills similar to the auto-proc shield on item 3155 .

D: AD Mana-less Champions Aatrox DrMundo Gnar LeeSinRenekton Rengar Riven Shen Tryndamere Yasuo Zed and some others I probably forgot.

-Base Energy Regen is significantly quicker than Base Mana Regen. -Mana-less Champions don't have to worry about building Maximum Mana or Mana Regen items. They can straight up rush Defensive or purely offensive items.

Let's look at the starter items as well:

item 1056 : Offers Mana Regen, just to barely sustain in lane. Absolutely NO spellvamp or health healed from killing minions.

item 1055 : Offers 3% lifesteal.

I've seen on countless games item 1055 1 potion OUT-sustains item 1056 2 potions, especially on mana-less AD Mids like Zed Yasuo .

If a mage all-in's them they have to use up a massive resource of mana. The manaless AD mids can then either lifesteal from Crab, Jungle camps, or the minions in lane safely far in the back. Sometimes they can just straightup continue to lifesteal up front because the Mage runs out of mana, which means they get free turret damage, more cs, or even earlier roaming.

They can straight up rush item 3155 for 1300g, while most mages have to go either item 3165 ,item 3070 ,item 3027 just to manage their Mana Consumption.

If both the Mana Mage and the Manaless AD Mid both blew their cooldowns, the AD Mid would also be able to lifesteal, attack speed, possible crit, and higher attack damage overall in the time that these cooldowns are in place for both champions.

I'm not saying its 100% impossible to beat Zed and Yasuo mids, as I have from time and time again defeated them over 3 seasons. I'm just saying that if a mage bought item 3191 item 1056 VS. a Zed/Yasuo who bought item 1055 item 3155 , the Zed Yasuo would overall have a better chance at winning trades, sustaining in lane from lifesteal, and consequently gank lanes earlier and siege earlier than mana mages.

It's just sad to see Karthus completely countered by item 3009900g and item 31551300g . A total cost of 2200g which can be easily obtained before 20 minutes. It completely negates item 31911200g and item 31163200g which is a total cost of 4400g a whopping twice the amount, let's not forget Karthus also has to buy item 3070 750g just to barely be on terms with wave clear and poking. So a total of 5150g countered by 2200g.

I think it would be cool if maybe we did a similar rework like Singed where if he flips into the Slow, the enemy gets rooted for a set duration.

If Karthus lands a Q it will create 1 Stack of Pain, this stack depletes similar to Thunderlord after 3 seconds, if Karthus can land 5 Q's consequtively without missing 1, then maybe it could root the enemy for 1-2 seconds based on level?

Realistically in high elo, landing 5 Karthus Q's in a row is very rare. It's just an idea I thought of. Or maybe if Karthus uses Wall of Pain and within the 3-5 seconds of Slow, manages to land 3-5 Q's, it roots them in place for 1-2 seconds?

Overall Conclusion: I'm glad Zed and Hexdrinker are getting nerfed on PBE, and I also think Boots of Swiftness offers too much Slow Resistance when stacked with 15% Tenacity/15% slow from Swiftness under Resolve tree. I think building item 3191 doesn't cut it anymore and item 3155 is way too cost effective. I also think item 3116 and champions with only slows are easily countered by a mere 900g Item item 3009 . I think mana-less AD Mids have better laning phase, quicker sieging, waveclear, lifesteal sustenance, and earlier ganking than most mages midlane.

Some links I'd like to promote because they inspired me to write this:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/uBgaYjW6-we-have-all-purpose-shields-and-magic-damage-shields?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EljQkgEE-zed-is-getting-nerfed-on-pbe

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/O1AYhOJl-why-are-4-ad-team-comps-support-ok

and most importantly:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9EwiAKRV-does-riot-really-think-this-is-okay

Cheers! From an old Karthus fanatic.

UPDATE 4/3/2016:

I want to thank everyone who has provided feedback and shared their experiences!

Our post was reviewed by Karthos on Reddit and I'm grateful for the light on Karthus. Feel free to check it out below!

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4d4g1y/hello_i_am_karthos_diamond_karthus_1_trick_pony/

153 Comments

D2Vincent3/31/2016, 10:12:46 AM31 votes

Glad to see I'm not the only Karthus main around lol. I've been a karthus main since around SGU came out (more or less), and I do agree on just about all your topics.

It is rather irritating to have to deal with the fact that with a single item, a single AD assassin can completely dominate someone who's gotten 2-3 items already, and just snowball from there. I'm glad both Zed and Maw of Screw Yer AP is getting Nerfed. Maybe now I can go back to playing league again. :P

Also, I'd just like to add one more thing that might give the ol' lich a bit of a leg up....

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, RITO, PLEASE GIVE HIM A SKIN ALREADY!

Seriously, how long do we have to wait? lol

RipReviveFkRito3/31/2016, 3:18:52 PM16 votes

#makemidgreatagain item 3070 Karthus

Lord Galvatron3/31/2016, 1:54:28 PM10 votes

tl;dr, Mage items need to be changed to match their FIghter counterparts.

Stacking Dorans should not be a substitute for buying AP items such as Hourglass and Morello's.

I also find it disturbing that the mages that are doing well in this meta are the ones getting major changes/reworks.

OurLestrade3/31/2016, 9:34:32 AM9 votes

You lost me at card game :O

5050BS3/31/2016, 7:57:04 PM9 votes

OP points out a TON of why AP mids are hurting.

Manaless champs can go right for the items that give them killing power while AP mages HAVE to build mana or mana regen items to even wave clear.

I will trade with a Zed or Yasuo mid with Zyra and ONE Zyra Combo at lvl 3-5 = 40% of her mana If I have not backed by lvl 6 and even with CSing well and not poking I will most of the time NOT have the mana to Combo and Ult while Zed will be able to all in me when he hits 6.

Mages that have Mana should have REALLY HARD hitting Combos for the resources they have to give up.

Dragonlord71374/1/2016, 12:35:09 AM9 votes

I miss mana pots. Even with the introduction of item 2033 and item 2032 one is jungle exclusive and the other cost 500g with only 50 mana per charge along with no stats but a magic damage dot. I've tried starting with item 1056 and with item 2033 but in the end I always find that any manaless champions eventually out sustain me whether top lane or mid lane (I like a lot of champions and find that I want to learn how to use all of them at a moderate level). Overall manaless champs seem to just have too much damage with little to no drawbacks. That's my opinion anyways.

Canastus3/31/2016, 6:04:21 PM8 votes

Hexdrinker isn't getting nerfed, they're only going to focus on Maw according to the latest changes. They still fail to realize that Hexdrinker is the biggest offender in terms of cost-effectiveness which makes it extremely easy to start dominating your lane after simply spending 1300g. Both Maw and Hexdrinker deserve harsh nerfs or higher costs, no question about that.

foinhas3/31/2016, 12:55:08 PM7 votes

You got my upvote for the mere fact that you aknowledge the power of his Q (as it should be). People that kept complaing about his ulti don't know the pain that is to fight against a good karthus Q.

Oleandervine3/31/2016, 9:58:29 PM6 votes

{quoted}

Have you tried to play energy based champions? Their energy system is balanced, For example you cannot spam your spells, you have to manage your energy. You cannot randomly press buttons since you'll get out of energy. basically you cannot spam those, you have to use combos to regain energy, and also manage it properly. On the other hand, with mana you have to watch out when you are getting low.

Except with energy champions, once you learn a combo to do damage and regain energy, you have no more worries. Ever. A mana user can use their combos, but they still have to buy mana regen items and there's never a point where they can continuously stay in lane without worrying about running out of mana. Look at it like this: "I have this battery in my radio. If I don't blast my radio at 100% volume, the battery charges itself and will never run out." As opposed to: "I have this battery in my radio. It will only last 5 minutes unless I buy this backup battery for it, and then it only lasts 10 minutes until it can recharage itself."

And to the OP's main point, a caster has to go back and buy a mana item, which in early levels, have no offensive stats. An energy user doesn't have to buy anything to sustain themselves and can go straight for their offensive item of choice. What this means is that a caster always loses momentum against an energy champion because an energy champion can always out-damage them and either kill them faster or bully them from the lane more.

Ralanr3/31/2016, 4:06:09 PM5 votes

I think Mundo is more AP scaling than he is AD. Course Mundo is Mundo and will build a shit load of health.

Old Man Teeto3/31/2016, 11:50:32 PM4 votes

Karthus just needs better itemization that lets him not have to put the majority of his eggs into a late-game basket.

He is forced into Tear or RoA -- both delay power items -- every single game since he requires a heavy mana item.

The big nerfs to Karthus were onto his W wall when they changed it from Flat penetration to %. This made it insanely weak against squishies and only slightly more useful post 40~ minutes against tanks, pushing him even moreso to praying for late-game.

Karthus is actually at his strongest IN THE MID GAME. When people can't kill him as quickly, and he can pump out damage onto everyone before they have heavy magic resistance.

Actual itemization that allows him to build and play for mid-game and is comparably as strong as current AD itemization would be phenomenal.

Only kit change I would want is his old flat penetration wall back again.

AtheosisX4/1/2016, 2:32:18 AM4 votes

What I want to know is how Karthus got left out of the mage rebalancing.

Mokkun4/1/2016, 4:50:33 AM3 votes

Karthus was my first main. I still like him, but I hardly ever play anything other than support these days.

I would not be in favor of a rework. I like his kit concept. I think he might need more than item changes to survive the modern era though. Mostly in either needing his Q to cost less, or do slightly more damage so that he can keep up with the wave clear of modern mids before level 5-7.

My own theories of helping him aside, I think this was a very well thought out post.

TheOvermind3/31/2016, 11:04:36 AM3 votes

Karthus still works actually you can farm very well and shove and do other things ( my record is 225 cs at 20 mins) all he really needs is the new grounded debuff on his w to help him deal with mobilty his q explosion delay reduced at max rank to let him dps more reliably and I would just like to see damage buff to his e or ult and honestly he will be perfect. No rework needed. Karthus has a very old kit indeed with clear weaknesses but it works very well and I don't want to see it gone . Also Olaf does use mana

FreshAsFebreze4/1/2016, 2:03:31 PM3 votes

Nice Post. IMO, riot does all the buffing and nerfing on champions that are currently played in the meta, or pro games/challenger games. They see who's OP and what not and decides to buff/nerf accordingly without really thinking about other consequences. I mean, they have over 100 champs in the game. I highly doubt they examine a certain buff/nerf on every champ that it could possibly effect. I think it's a shame that certain champs get laid to waste because others might be "popular" for a couple of months. Coming from someone who has been using the same champs since season 2, all I see is new champs come out that dominate because all of these "old champs" go unbuffed and can't keep up with the shifting play style.

Caytheles4/1/2016, 7:58:55 PM3 votes

Someone else understands? Also lets not forget that every item now gives Movement speed. and all champions base movement speed have been increased by abit since season 4

MaeFire4/1/2016, 8:47:51 AM3 votes

I logged in just to upvote this. Not only does this apply to karthus, but other mids as well. I can not recall how many times I was destroying a mid-lane champ like zed/yasuo as anivia, only to run out of mana and go from tower poking them to having to back and lose my tower in under a minute.

Zedex3/31/2016, 2:44:18 PM2 votes

Change his toxic ultimate. That literally won Regi his games when he "Mained" karthus. No offense but he needs a skill requirement besides his annoying to land Q.

DeloricVI3/31/2016, 3:13:25 PM2 votes

You also have to consider stormraider's surge. I know you don't see it much, but this can probably ruin karthus's day. Karthus is very squishy, and only has his wall as an escape. If you deal 1/3 of karthus's already small pool of hp, you gain a ton of movement speed and 75% slow resistance. I know it's not common, but it's something you may want to look out for.

Maybe a nerf to boots of swiftness is what srs needs to become a "legit keystone" mastery. I've had a lot of people doubt me when I take this mastery bursty champions like Viegar, who don't combo very well without their ult (as to abuse Thunderlords) and need something in the early game because games end so early, making Deathfire Touch... lacking in this meta. I've gotten out of some pretty sticky situations just by landing a Veigar W. I've gotten away from a nasus who withered me, because I bursted the crap of of one of his allies. I was able to get far enough ahead to trap in in my cage, so wither wore off long before Nasus was in any position to come after me.

I honestly don't know why Riot reduced the cost on boots of swiftness; because it's 200 g cheaper, it's too darn popular, in my opinion.

Golf 6 12TSI3/31/2016, 8:44:12 PM1 votes

Have you tried to play energy based champions? Their energy system is balanced, For example you cannot spam your spells, you have to manage your energy. You cannot randomly press buttons since you'll get out of energy. basically you cannot spam those, you have to use combos to regain energy, and also manage it properly. On the other hand, with mana you have to watch out when you are getting low.