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Quinn

The Rayzor·2/9/2015, 2:18:55 PM·42 votes·3,595 views

First of all - what a great and fun champion. I made a name where I just play her exclusively because she's just fun. Versatile in her ability to go top, middle, adc and even jungle. Sadly these roles only really happen in normal games and her play rate in ranked high level is abysmal. I want to offer up some ideas on what might make her become just a little more playable in a competitive game. Hopefully the tweaks recommended would give more knowledgeable champion balancing-type people ideas while enabling a devoted Quinn player to take advantage of high skill-gap maneuvers.

  1. Her E's mobility is kind of lackluster. There are the cool plays where you flip back over a wall away from the bruiser and kill him over the wall - which is cool but so gimmicky. The damage, without harrier at least, is also very poor. I think it would make sense to drop the damage component of it while giving it better mobility - similar to Kallista - where right clicking during the attack animation makes you move in that direction. Why does Quinn have to back flip back in the direction that she attacked? It would make for some awesome plays - if she could flip in the direction of her right click from her enemy - 360 degrees of possibilities with, ideally, the same radius (her AA range).

  2. Make her E a separate cooldown with both Quinn and Valor or make Valor's basic attacks reduce E's cooldown. Using E in Valor form right now is a recipe for disaster in a team fight and since its damage is not noticeable without Harrier you sacrifice a ton of damage by using it. Since you lose Harrier in valor form your passive is useless, also. It doesn't really make sense realistically anyway for Valor and Quinn to have E on the same cooldown - they're two different creatures doing two different things. =p

  3. When exiting Valor in a hail of arrows the damage is basically non-existent - it doesn't scale well at all. It can never reach its full damage potential either with the way the damage is calculated. Consider making it more like Riven's ultimate where it does a percentage of missing health damage in an AoE.

While I think #1 is really what she needs to get into competitive play, and allow for some real exciting displays of skill, I think a derivation of any of these enhancements would really help.

36 Comments

junglerboy162/9/2015, 3:58:44 PM17 votes

Really, Quin just seems like she needs mechanical touch ups, not any sort of real changes. Her AA is atrocious (like Poppy AA kind of atrocious) and she still has a slew of random pseudo bugs that should have gotten fixed shortly after release.

MrDrBudd2/9/2015, 4:15:18 PM8 votes

quinn and valor having separate cds would be enough tbh. also her AA is really annoying how you can hear your auto going off but it turns out you cancel it so easily by clicking where to move next

OG Finesse2/9/2015, 8:56:33 PM7 votes

Number 1: It's true that her E feels really bad, especially when it decides to bug out and launches you forward instead of backwards. But vault isn't only used for mobility, it can be used as and interrupt to stop channeled spells like Katarina ult, or Karthus and few others like Nune, Fiddle etc.

Limiting some of Quinn mobility does feel really bad for the player, but I'm not sure giving her more mobility in this way is the answer.

But when speaking of mobility it's important to look at the entire package, using harriers mark gives a decent chunk of flat movement speed for 3 seconds (20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60), but since this is tied to Heightened Senses which is normally leveled last, you don't really get its benefit till late game.

Her ult, Tag Team offers a lot of out of combat movement speed, starting at 80% and scaling to 100%, but the soft cap does ruin that quite a bit. It also provides decent in combat mobility, starting at 20% and ending at 40%, allowing you escape some bad situations.

Number 2 is interesting, using your gap closer as Valor should put you in a bad spot, since you've effectively gone from being a ranged carry, to an assassin. Giving escape to assassins always leads to more problems see Zed, and would give her more burst; but Quinn is a special case where you could potential allow it, since it's based on two different forms, and she loses her assassin potential.

Number 3 already sort of exists; the damage is increased by 1% for every 1% of the target's missing health, it's not as good as Riven, but it does offer a larger aoe. But the cooldown on Quinns' ult is horrible (140/110/80)

Quinn does have some other weird problems, Valor marking targets always feels wrong to me if you don't use vault (which is essentially you marking the target), the first auto attack after landing your blind will always hit you (Teemo shares this problem), and cancelling her auto attack animation is just painful, especially with a harrier proc.

Fixing her bugs should be first priority, since realistically they limit her potential; from there you could do number 2, and see how that goes.

Solaxo2/9/2015, 6:29:52 PM6 votes

And fix her AA bug

Drunk Rummate2/9/2015, 4:11:51 PM5 votes

Actually adding a Kalista like mechanic to vault would be REALLY cool imo, if you could choose the direction you flip in.

The only problem I see with obvious buffs to quinn's kit is that she is probably one of the best, if not the best solo laner in the game for 1v1. I really like her duelist niche as a marksman, which is a really unique role that no other marksman fills. More than anything I just wish her kit didn't feel quite so clunky, but if she got popular you would have to worry about how ridiculously strong her laning phase is and inevitably I think she would be nerfed.

Konidias2/10/2015, 12:34:34 AM4 votes

Oh and congratulations! You've made the 100th thread about Quinn that Riot hasn't responded to.

...

Huzzah...

item 3070 Quinn item 3070

Aarekk2/10/2015, 3:08:03 AM3 votes

Upvoted because more talking about Quinn (whether it be about fixing clunky things or tweaking her abilities) is always good. I really like your suggestions and think they would each help in some way. Maybe not all of them together, but each one has merit. Another idea I had been bouncing around personally, is to have consuming harrier procs reduce the cooldown on her ult slightly. It could even make thematic sense. Valor is pleased that Quinn is listening to his suggestions and is more willing to fight or whatever. Like, half a second on minions and a full second on champions. Or just champions. I imagine that it would work similar to Karma's passive (her's is 2 seconds and 1s for AAs, on an ult with half as long a cooldown at Qinn's shortest). This could give you more access to your ult and not make it feel like you always have to "save" it. It would also reward Quinn for putting herself in harm's way to attack champions.

Rikari2/9/2015, 10:38:16 PM2 votes

There are the cool plays where you flip back over a wall away from the bruiser and kill him over the wall - which is cool but so gimmicky.

Gank from behind, if they use W or not doesn't matter. If I understand what you are saying you want her to be able to move in any direction when using her E.

Using E in Valor form right now is a recipe for disaster in a team fight

Nidalee squishy assassin diving into the team,who needs a Blitzcrank ?

and since its damage is not noticeable without Harrier you sacrifice a ton of damage by using it. Since you lose Harrier in valor form your passive is useless, also.

Not to mention in human form your E is random,so it can literally go on a target RIGHT BEFORE YOUR E MARKS THEM WASTING THE PASSIVE

  1. When exiting Valor in a hail of arrows the damage is basically non-existent - it doesn't scale well at all. It can never reach its full damage potential either with the way the damage is calculated. Consider making it more like Riven's ultimate where it does a percentage of missing health damage in an AoE.

This. Her passive needs to be reworked,also a few tweaks on her E/R. I'm thinking if Valor uses the E+R and kills someone the E should reset,allowing Quinn to escape. Her R would be cool though if Quinn used to mark targets with her E for Valor xD i kid i kid

              Sincerely,
              Another Quinn Lover

PS I play her in ranked now and then,but as you said she isn't the best pick. I see her similar to nidalee,but a little different at the same time.

S H A Y C 02/9/2015, 4:27:17 PM2 votes

Didnt read past "Quin" downvoted based on that :P

Cindikle2/10/2015, 2:00:54 AM2 votes

Fix her bugs

Remove the damage from her ulti and give it something else. Or make it so you can choose where Quinn lands within the AoE.

Give her passive a use while in Valor form. Such as -1s CD to abilities each AA, which could be too OP but just throwing ideas out there. Could also reduce ability CD's by 50% on kill/assist. This would encourage the assassin side of her. This could even proc when she exits Valor form, so Quinn doesn't land with nothing to do but AA.

Droogzy2/9/2015, 6:31:51 PM2 votes

I really like the ability to control the direction of which way you can vault, although I do think there needs to be limitation, such as you can't vault directly forward and over whoever you choose to do so? If that were the case, I think it would be good.

I think another good change that would put Quinn in the right direction is tweaking her ultimate cooldown. Right now, its ridiculously long, like three minutes I think? I know her ultimate cooldown starts right when she exits as Valor, if they made it so the cooldown start from the moment she becomes Valor, she would be in a much better spot.

Markus Vakarian2/9/2015, 3:21:56 PM2 votes
  1. alone would be enough for me E+AA (passive)+R+E (to go in melee range)+Q (blind)+AA.... That's the combo we want And don't tell me it would be op...as already said,the damage of Quinn's E is very very low. It applies passive?? yes sure but you have to hit again for it. And if you consider that Darius' Q attacks applies passive and it still does a lot of damage... Low damage would have sense if it applies passive "on hit" but not this way.

Low damage on ultimate is true too,but i think that if Quinn gets all these things she would be too strong As i said,not CD shared on E would be enough for me

Anonagon2/9/2015, 8:51:20 PM2 votes

First off, I'd like to say its awesome every time I see a new Quinn player on the forums, so thanks for playing her. She's great. I have made my own thread on her issues (which I really should be bumping....) here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ehqc93PA-in-a-month-quinn-will-be-2-years-old-time-to-fix-her-rito . Now, on to your suggestions.

Her E is fairly ideal right now. Its mobility power is not in repositioning or gap-closing, but rather gap-extending. Its primary use is making distance between you and enemy divers. Not only does it move you, but it applies a hefty CC (mini-stun and 50% slow) to the target, as well as damaging them and allowing for increased follow-up damage with Harrier. I do not see any reason to change this ability drastically as it serves its purpose well.

Separate cooldowns are something Quinn and Valor can never have - primarily because Tag Team really isn't a form change akin to Jayce or Nidalee but rather a steroid reminiscent of Riven's ult, or even Olaf's. Giving Quinn and Valor separate cooldowns, even if it were just on E, would drastically increase her early-mid game burst damage and make her broken. You really shouldn't be using E to dive into teamfights. You should save your ult for assassinating out of place carries or for cleaning up teamfights.

Skystrike's damage is fairly low, but really the main reason for this is because Skystrike isn't the main component of her ulti. Skystrike is a noticeable nuke, but the true power of Tag Team is in mobility and reliable assassinations. I wouldn't say Quinn needs more damage on Skystrike, but rather just have the damage cap at 75% missing health, rather than how it is now where it does the most damage when the enemy is dead.

While I understand the concern for Quinn, most of her weakness is in various bugs with her Q and E, as well as how bad her AA animations are. She really can't get net buffs right now without nerfs to her melee bullying potential, but I believe that bugfixes/QoL changes can get her in a healthy, balanced, pickable spot.

Gunpoint2/9/2015, 9:18:53 PM2 votes

Why is Quinn so bad, there are so many worse champions, Quinn has great play potential and the damage from her ult is significant damage for the radius it has. She can essentially duel any other adc too.

rmreagle3/4/2015, 2:29:44 PM1 votes

1: Fix her bugs:

2: Skystrike kill resets vaults CD.

3: Slightly lower ult CD.

Quinn is now perfect.

(1 there are just so many.... http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/PyHx4b6P-three-bugs-with-quinns-vault plus her AA problems/cancelling)

(2 Allows her to get in and assassinate a target in a teamfight and still have a way to possibly escape, but no guarantee. Also doesn't increase her 1v1 dmg at all so top lane is unaffected)

(3 too low of a CD and her mobility/map presence early game is too high, and her split push becomes too strong late, already very strong, but still needs slight reduction in time, maybe 20 seconds less. There are way more powerful ults on way lower CD's: Kayle, Jinx, Yasuo, etc.)

Varnoc2/9/2015, 8:25:19 PM1 votes

From a Quinn Player:

  1. Interesting proposition, but I can't say much to it as I haven't gotten a chance to play Kalista, so I wouldn't be able to understand the control of the ability very well.

  2. Separate cooldowns on E makes complete sense if you think about it realistically. I would suggest making Valor's E a fixed distance dash though, similar to Fizz's Urchin Strike. The cooldown reduction with basic attacks as Valor may be over the top, but it could be attempted.

  3. I have a solution for this: ** Harrier's reapplication timer is reduced with each basic attack (Increased time between markings to compensate). While in Tag Team, Valor can apply Harrier to enemies, but cannot trigger them. Basic attacks refresh the duration of Harrier on an enemy when attacking as Valor (or similar effect). Skystrike now triggers Harrier.**

In conjunction with the cooldown reduction on-hit with E that was proposed, Quinn would scale fairly well with attack speed now, her passive bonus from W may need to take a small hit, but I can be content with it if we get both of those effects.

Kitten of Evil2/9/2015, 8:33:42 PM1 votes

Quinn is way too buggy, like release Azir. Fix the bugs before giving her substantive changes, imo. Her passive doesn't always proc an enhanced AA right after it shows up, her E sometimes puts her out of range or vaults her in weird directions, her auto-attack speed is noticeably different when it's passive-enhanced than when it's not, her blind sometimes doesn't work right away, and she has really weird projectile mechanics that make it hard to orb-walk (sometimes it will cancel your attack if you move while the arrow is almost at the enemy)

Pineconn2/9/2015, 10:58:41 PM1 votes

Having played Quinn quite a bit, I think she needs only a few things to be looked at. First, obviously, her AA lag. It's atrocious. Fix that foremost.

Past that, her kit is pretty versatile. You can max Q for damage, W for utility, and E for mobility. I like to max W second for the AS/MS, and your ult is much stronger in the midgame to help her scale to her normally subpar late game. So how would I fix her late game?

Yeah, adding a health cap to Skystrike would be good. Maybe buffing her Skystrike level 3 damage would help, too. (Riot has been experimenting with nonlinear base damage, like Ahri's E.)

But the number one thing I'd like to see is a cooldown reset of Vault (her E) when Skystrike is cast. This would open windows of opportunity for Quinn to ult into a skirmish or team fight, do damage/assassinate, then Vault back out of the fight to proceed to kite. Currently her ult is suicidal in team fights, and I believe this will help. This will not buff top Quinn in lane, which I know Riot is weary of doing (except for the fringe case where you ult, E in, Skystrike, then E out just to get another Harrier proc). A slight nerf to Quinn's early game might be in order for this change, however... maybe making the blind last 1.1/1.2/1.3/1.4/1.5s from a flat 1.5s. Or something, idk.

Just my thoughts. I don't think Quinn needs an overhaul (new splash, though?) or something like separate Quinn/Valor cooldowns (as that would be way too bursty). Just some nudges and some added functionality to her E (which wouldn't be unprecedented... Singed recently got a root as a pure buff).

Konidias2/9/2015, 11:13:36 PM1 votes

With both changes to her vault (multi directional vaulting + cooldown resets) she would be extremely broken in solo lanes.

Imagine this in top lane:

  • Quinn and enemy melee top laner are about midway between the lane
  • Enemy top laner uses their only gap closer
  • Quinn then uses vault to jump over the enemy and land on the other side (ala Gnar)
  • Passive procs, Quinn does damage with an AA
  • Quinn throws a blind on to the enemy who now has to either run past Quinn or run out through the river to escape... Assuming they try to run back to their tower, Quinn will absolutely eat them alive with autos.

While I love the idea of being able to control where Quinn lands with Vault, I feel like it would be so broken in combos that they just couldn't let it happen.

Same with unshared cooldowns between Quinn/Valor. You could do a full wombo combo with Quinn. (double pro passive, blind, couple of autos) and then ult and repeat the process. It would be like two champs in one and would be totally busted.

What she needs is just some cooldown resets when she gets a kill in Valor form. Valor is a melee assassin but gets no resets like most melee assassins.

Also fixing her bugs would be a huge improvement... Especially attack moving being extremely clunky... AAing on a proc target is so slow and clunky... you have to wait a full second before moving again because if you move at all after starting to fire, the AA is cancelled.

What's worse is I've had more than a few occasions lately where my autos land but deal no damage. Do you know how frustrating it is to have passive land on target and you shoot them and the arrow hits but does nothing?

The Soulforged2/9/2015, 11:14:01 PM1 votes

For me personally, I think her abilities are fine in power, besides maybe skystrike, but what I really want is a way for her to use her passive in bird form, because atm, her bird form normally does less damage than her ranged.

Markus Vakarian2/10/2015, 11:55:55 AM1 votes

another thing i noticed is that her blind doesn't really work well Using Q on an enemy that is not attacking you yet,should blind him since his first attack (the projectile is not mid way) but no......the first attack of this enemy will do damage,but i don't really know if the 1.5s starts when you hit or later.

Madra2/10/2015, 4:52:36 PM1 votes

Quinn needs her attack animation cleaned up.

I think what frustrates me the most when I play as Quinn is how long the cooldown on her ultimate is. It's a very versatile ultimate, but I don't think LoL is a game where an ADC has a 140 second cooldown on her ultimate anymore. I mean it's almost a fun minute longer than Jinx has and how much better is it to finish a fight without having to get in the middle of it?

I thought that Valor should have a longer range on Vault and change the tooltip to "Dive". As Quinn ranks up her ultimate, Valor gets an increase to the range on his Dive.

I think that some kind of reset mechanism on her Vault wouldn't be bad, like casting Skystrike refreshes her Vault cooldown, or if she gets a kill during Skystrike, her Vault is refreshed. It's a low damage move on it's own, but it does carry the Harrier mark onto it's target, so that's a potential problem.

The biggest problem with Quinn is that Graves exists. Two AoE burst attacks that you can frontload into a team fight, a defensive passive that's pure gold in the lane, and a blind that isn't blocked by minions/tanks is just plain more desirable than a champion who's biggest strength comes cleaning up at the end of the fight. I mean, has anyone at Riot even compared the damage numbers/coefficients on Collateral Damage and Skystrike?

Gadola2/10/2015, 5:25:45 PM1 votes

I love the fact that you can cancel Lee q, Lee w, Warwick ult, Lucian e, Pantheon w, Riven q, Trist w, and more. Its just so much fun anf generally gives huge outplay potential. I really love Quinn and her unique kit. I Dont think they should change her in any way and that people just need to learn how to counter champs using her. (cancelling a WW ult is euphoric)

Eyrgos2/10/2015, 6:07:28 PM1 votes

I like a lot of your critique/thoughts... what do you think of these suggestions of mine?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/wRvLahql-lets-talk-about-quinn-valor

RedWedding2/9/2015, 3:00:43 PM1 votes

Hey! Glad to see my favorite scout is getting some attention.

I think your E mobility suggestion is really cool, but I do not know if it is very feasible with the amount of damage it provides with both an AA reset and passive proc-- a lot of the power budget is devoted to that I do believe. And it slows. And it interrupts things like dashes, Kat ults, etc... even if we remove the damage component the ability is still very powerful. While it would be freakin' awesome to dictate where we vault, I would much rather keep the additional utility the ability has than lose it.

I very much disagree about the skystrike, actually. It's an effective execute to round out the tag team assassination pattern, and the AoE on it is massive. You will hit an entire team with it during a teamfight, a fact that should not be discounted. I would of course love to see the damage increase, but that would put her assassination potential in her ultimate form a bit over the top for such a versatile character imo. But, as one or two rioters are wont to say, I'm not a designer. I think her power budget is pretty well spent on her abilities, but I could be spectacularly wrong.

As for sharing cooldowns- I think it makes sense for them to share, but I also think it is annoying. I like the idea of having Valor's AA's reduce the dash cooldown, I think that adds some really interesting play patterns. However, I think it could add a potentially oppressive chase potential- the target gap opens, we e to close, then aa a few times and they flash, we e to close again. Not to mention the MS boost on top of that. I think to have the AA's reduce cd, we'd have to sacrifice some base cooldown, which is iffy. But I would love for something like that to show up. Hm. Also, a comment on the e. If you feel like it is suicide to use it in some situations as Valor, remember you can pop your R again halfway through the jump. So you dash to them as Valor, but bounce off as Quinn, dealing skystrike damage and proccing the passive and slow. So keep an eye on that- it's really useful in some situations like under tower executions.