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Creating a more healthy and balanced Pyke, starting with his Arrr!

Thresh Outta Fux·9/20/2019, 3:54:20 PM·4 votes·1,909 views

Skippable Prelude:

_ Even if the Pyke gold buff is reverted, I'm still going to ban him in 100% of games (even if allies select him) because his R is too strong when coupled with the rest of his kit. Additionally, Pyke Support encourages "Assassin Mentality", instead of the proper mindset an actual 'support' player should be in. It becomes more important for Pyke to make the plays, the escapes, and become the carry of the game instead of the ADC that they are supposed to protect, nurture, and grow. Obviously we know his gold buff needs to be reverted, but in addition, I've outlined a concept below of how to change our deep sea boi to see more healthy counterplay, and perhaps a more interesting and fun way to utilize his kit._

Here's my suggestion for changing his R:

THIS IS A SINGLE TARGET, NON-RESETTING ULTIMATE. Pyke selects an enemy champion between 400-600 units away, impaling them with a harpoon. This creates a tether between Pyke and the selected champion, and when Pyke or his prey attempt to move away from eachother, they move at 0%-90% speed reduction based on the distance (from 400-1500 units). Using a Dash or Flash will yank the other person the same distance, in the same direction. The tether lasts for (10?) seconds, and if the target has less than (###) HP when the tether ends (or dies before the tether ends), Pyke will drag them into the maw of the Jaull (the fish that ate him in his lore), executing them and giving Your Cut to himself and the last assisting ally. The execute does not reset, and is instead placed on proper cooldown. Pyke CANNOT drag the target in early, and MUST wait the full 10 seconds before they will automatically be dragged in if the HP criteria is met when the ability ends.

Opportunities for numbers:

  1. The R deals damage on making the tether, and applies grievous wounds throughout the tether, but no additional damage.
  1. R does not deal damage on making the tether, but instead applies damage over time while connected, increasing based on the distance away from Pyke. Does not apply grievous wounds.
  1. The R deals no damage when made or connected, but applies grievous wounds.
  1. The R deals no damage when made or connected, but deals ### damage every time Pyke or his opponent use a dash/flash ability.

Why this change?

  1. The resetting, instant, AOE execute is far, far too strong of an ability, and does not fall in line with the role of "Support".
  1. This ability gives more homage to Pyke's lore, and a much fairer execute with counterplay.
  1. Musical/Artistic opportunities. As you're struggling against Pyke who's trying to reel you in, there's opportunity for some -epic- musical talent, growing more and more dramatic and epic as your health bar slowly reaches the point, the jaws-like hunting music building, and then you're either reeled in and executed in a final climactic crash of instrumental vigor, or you escape, with the music fading away, and the drowned voice of Pyke whispering respect or promises of another hunt. Along with this, there's animation options where Pyke is pulling, dragging, and planting his feet to reel in his newest catch, and more visual aspects to the Jaull as well.
  2. Shoutcaster hype. You literally are being given 10s of the MOST dramatic moments you could POSSIBLY be broadcasting in an LCS game, instead of... Wow Pyke just 1v5ed the enemy team because they had less than 50% health. Woohoo. League of Snowball everyone. Now his team has twice the gold his opponents do, so fun and well designed, yay. Shoutcaster goes on to discuss his divorce and consider his life choices as they watch Pyke push a tower.

FAQ:

  • 400-600 units? Why? The goal is to not allow Pyke to brazenly use his ult in the midst of a teamfight, with little thought of how or why he's using it. Instead, by restricting the use range to an inner and outer limit, this ensures that his ult will be used to catch fleeing opponents, over walls, pulling enemies out of position, or even to slow opponents trying to chase down an ally by putting himself in danger instead.
  • After activating, does the tether have a max/min range? This would require some playtesting to explore the possibilities here. Personally, I would like to say no on having a max range for the tether, as this would ensure that Pyke would work as a counter to champions with near infinite dash/flashes escaping from a fight (such as Leblanc, Kassadin, Riven, etc). As for a minimum range, I think it would be a good idea to reduce the slow effect to 0% if the target is within 400 units, as the line would no longer be taut, but still keep the tether connected.
  • Do I need Cleanse, Zhonyas, or a QSS to escape? Ideally, each could be used, but must be utilized at different times to escape: Cleanse would be used during the 10s of tethering, Zhonyas would be used at the last second before the suppression to negate the reel-in+execute, and QSS could be used after the 10s to break the suppression.
  • Will this gut Pyke? Neptune, no. He still has a hook, invisibility, regen, and a dash. Honestly, he could probably take another couple nerfs after this change and still be a top pick.
  • This sounds good, I'm- Wait a minute, the tether ISN'T a skill shot?! Again, this will need playtesting. However, I don't believe having his R be the same as Urgots will be good for champion identity, and the fact that programming a skill shot to not activate within the first 400 units probably won't pan out very well.
  • I'm downvoting because I want to be able to break the tether. Use Cleanse, Zhonyas, or QSS appropriately. A major problem in League of Legends is the lack of counterplay to dash/flash escapes, and I believe this change will make Pyke have a better, fairer role to play. Pyke is wonderfully designed from an ARTISTIC standpoint, but balance wise he is a huge mess on the poop deck.
  • I'm downvoting because I'm a Pyke main abusing Pyke's inherently strong kit in the 1% of games I get where he isn't banned. Maybe if you upvote this change and get it to go through, you'll get to abuse the rest of his uniquely strong kit in the 2% of games where he isn't banned. Just sayin'.
  • I'm downvoting because I want Pyke deleted. How many Champions has Riot deleted? That's right, turn that downvote into an upvote, cause this is the best you're going to get.

Conclusion:

Pyke is artistically one of the best champions in the game, hands down. The sound effects, the visuals, his lore, he's beautifully crafted on all points... Except for balance, and the role he's supposed to fill. Creating such a piece of art, and making him as strong as he is, means all those sound effects, visuals, and lore, the ENTIRE epitome of the champion all culminates into only ONE voice line:

"My list just got longer." - Pyke, as he's banned yet again, and again, and again.

32 Comments

Chembaron Yamada9/20/2019, 4:14:40 PM5 votes

Tbh, this sounds like Urgot's ultimate on hypersteroid.

Hotarµ9/20/2019, 4:56:36 PM4 votes

The resetting, instant, AOE execute is far, far too strong of an ability, and does not fall in line with the role of "Support".

There are no set guidelines when playing Support.

His ultimate is fine when balanced properly (which currently it isn't IMO as it's too rewarding) and one of his most defining features. He's supposed to be a high-risk, high-reward champion who benefits his team through kill power and kill power alone, he's supposed to be a powder keg of a champion who can pop off when given the right scenario.

Removing that chain-kill power completely invalidates him unless you massively buffed other areas of his kit.

I'm downvoting because I want to be able to break the tether.

Actually, I'm downvoting for three reasons.

1 - Because whenever people bring up popular or strong champions that they dislike (be it Pyke, Zoe, Yasuo, etc.) they always exaggerate and are incapable of discussing balance without making sarcastic or overblown comments about the champion and it's players.

  • "Wow Pyke just 1v5ed the enemy team because they had less than 50% health. Woohoo. League of Snowball everyone. Now his team has twice the gold his opponents do, so fun and well designed, yay." (Pyke doesn't 1v5, Pyke doesn't land 5 man ults that easily especially with all the heightened mobility we have now, and why is this not hype if it were the case? Why can other champions like Malphite or Gnar land insane ults and that's hype, but not when Pyke does it? Clear double standard.)

  • "I'm downvoting because I'm a Pyke main abusing Pyke's inherently strong kit in the 1% of games I get where he isn't banned."

2 - Because you keep bringing up counterplay but this change would make Pyke nigh-unplayable.

How do you counter Pyke's current ult? Stay at med-high HP, keep a healing ability on hand, save your dashes and blinks for when he's chaining his ult, buy a Zhonya's, increase your MS above a certain point to juke it with ease.

How would you counter your version of Pyke's ult? QSS, Zhonya's, Cleanse, heals.

Congratulations, you've technically made counterplay more accessible but also made it more unhealthy. Someone can spend 1,300 gold to completely invalidate Pyke for the rest of the game and if he does somehow land an ultimate in a teamfight, he can't do much afterwards because it doesn't reset. Pyke is not that strong of a champion when he does not have access to his ultimate.

3 - Because as much as you say this change wouldn't gut Pyke, it would. You cannot take an aggressive support (who cannot heal, shield, or consistently peel in any capacity) and remove his most effective source of kill power and it's reset mechanic without buffing other areas of his kit.

One execute without a reset after a 10 second delay that's counterable by Cleanse, Zhonya's, and QSS in addition to any healing ability in the game? How is that not a hard nerf? That would completely destroy the champion.

Pika Fox9/20/2019, 4:25:15 PM2 votes

"pyke encourages assassin mentality instead of support mentality"

There is no such thing as a proper support mentality, as there is a wide range of different types of support.

But realistically, pyke plays no different than leona. Neither can effectively save or defend your adc, and both are good at singling out one single target to die now. Only real difference is pyke is garbage pre 6, leona is garbage post 8

Thresh Outta Fux9/20/2019, 3:55:35 PM2 votes

Please remember to upvote and comment if you like these changes! If you have more questions or want to discuss fine tuning, please do so!

chipndip19/20/2019, 7:44:28 PM1 votes

His Q already displaces people. The ult is clumsy and redundant.

I'm sorry but you guys are NOT game devs to know better than actual game devs when it comes to game development.

Shahamut9/20/2019, 8:06:29 PM1 votes

Only changes I want to see for pyke:

  1. Ultimate no longer makes gold appear out of thin air OR it loses the reset all together. I honestly don't mind the idea of the support being able to carry if thats what he is designed to do, but when he can multi-execute AND generate a METRIC TON of additional gold to his team? Thats just dumb.

  2. reduced gray health. Too much too early. His kit is incredibly safe and punishing him is exceedingly hard in comparison.

  3. Ignite grants true sight of target. This way it can still kill him if you ignite him before he gets away since he will still be in vision.

iiGazeii9/24/2019, 8:51:05 PM1 votes

I would like to see them try increasing the cast time to 1 second with a 1-second lockout time before something this drastic. Plus removing the double gold thing, that was just dumb.

Maybe make it so that Pyke's base ability damage is lower, but he gets a multiplier on healthy opponents. His abilities would be better at getting enemies low, but worse at finishing them off. He'd either need his ult (which would now be harder to land with the increased cast time) or teammates to finish the kill.

Make his regen not-free by drastically reducing the gray health he gets for taking damage, but let him gain gray health by DEALING damage. That way, he would need to commit to trades, spend mana, and land skillshots to get good regen.

Finally, make his passive convert armor/MR into a tiny amount of lethality, so he can't abust Aftershock and tank items to become not-squishy. Pyke should always be squishy.

He'd have lower kill pressure, less damage, and his ult would actually be reasonable to dodge.

If he needs buffs after that, buff his utility. Improve the slow on his harpoon (longer duration slow that decays), give him movement speed/ghosting while his E is active so it's easier to set up a stun for his teammates, or maybe tighten up the radius of his camouflage and have it expand over the duration so he can get out easier.

Your idea is cool, but it's a lot of work. I think the idea of the support with an assassin's mentality is Pyke's whole fantasy. It can work.

Horse Grenades9/20/2019, 4:24:02 PM1 votes

You clearly put a lot of work into this! I appreciate that. I feel like the real target that should be touched is his safety

BLACK REALM GOD9/20/2019, 4:26:37 PM1 votes

i think that in your example the interaction between pyke and the person he tethers is clunky. 2 examples of tethers that are in the game currently are morgana and karma.

in both of these examples the enemy can break the tether should they go a certain distance from the champion initiating the tether.

in your example the opponent isn't able to break the tether and instead is essentially prevented from moving. This would be similar to how Luigi from Luigi's mansion interacts with ghosts when vacuuming them. It's not impossible to create in a game obviously, but in a PVP game where each player experiences lag and such and the primary purpose of pyke's dash being to stun the opponent I believe this would create contradictory gameplay elements and be extremely unfun for the player that pyke is tethering.

anyone that plays league knows that 10 seconds is a LONG time to be slowed or restrained. Morgana's Q is between 2 and 3 seconds and we all know how much people complain about her Q. Camille's R only lasts for 2.5 - 4 seconds for example.

and finally I think that the concept of a tether that then eventually reels in with pyke and then gives the maw the execution is just plain bad. The R that urgot uses is iconic and thematic, but it still feels bad. Taking a character like pyke and giving him a perpetual death sentence that is a combination of zed's R, morgana's R, Camilles R, and Urgot's R would literally do the exact opposite of decrease pykes power and instead decrease his identity by just strapping a giant team fight auto win nuke onto his kit.

Modl Ryden l9/20/2019, 4:42:13 PM1 votes

Increase the length of time the template of his R shows by increasing the time it takes to wind up his ulti.

This instead probably the better way to go about fixing his ulti. The main reason inexperienced players are having a tough time dealing with Pyke's ulti is because of how quickly the ability is animated and obstructive the graphics are when Pyke rises from below (the tall splashing effect). If players could see the AoE marker longer it would be easier for players to react without having to completely rework the ulti or Pyke's kit entirely.